Balata Camp, Palestine: Urgent Request.

by Noel Thu Jul 21, 2005 17:49

Why dont you stop supporting terrorists

these people are killers and have no respect for life,

sucide bombings are evil, those who carry them out and those who support them are evil and deserve what they get

by Ali H. Thu Jul 21, 2005 18:41

of children don't you understand Noel?

I for one welcome this visit as a positive step in an otherwise very bleak situation.

If people like you were really concerned about being misunderstood you'd be sending a group of Israeli children to participate too.

That, however would be too dangerous for Zionists who might actually find out they had something in common with their Palestinian neighbours and that might undermine the whole Zionist project based on the Palestinian untermensch wouldn't it?

by Bundist Thu Jul 21, 2005 19:27

I fully support this call to help the children from Balata's tour. I know from visiting Balata how important a visit such as this would be for children whose lives are blighted by the occupation.

As for the Noel and Ali's comments they have the tedious ring of familiarity. Noel why do you repeatedly call all Palestinians terrorist and Ali why do you repeatedly class all Israeli's Zionists. You are both obviously ignorant of the complexity of both societies. You are racist mirror images of each other.

A visit to Palestine/Israel and some discussions with those Israelis/Palestinians who are committed to an end to occupation and the creation of a fully independent Palestinian state in all of the occupied territories as the only basis for a just and lasting peace for both nations, might disabuse you both of your 'tar everyone with the same brush' ignorance.

by Ali H. Thu Jul 21, 2005 23:08

Personally I find Noels comments about Muslims to be the repulsive product of a warped mind and completely without foundation and unlike you I fail to see how my views are the mirror image of his, unless the mirror is of the fairground variety.

Confusing opposition to injustice for the people of Palestine with racism is something people like Noel actively encourage.

by Bundist Thu Jul 21, 2005 23:41

Noels views are of the patently neanderthal racist 'all muslims/arabs/palestinians mad terrorist' variety but Ali you feed this strain by your language. Of course anyone who has seen the terrible reality of the occupation, as I have, knows there is no equivalence between the Israeli state and its opponents but your language implies that all Israelis are the problem rather than the state and its rulers. Your language comes close to that of the far right by describing Israelis, as oppose to the ideology of the ruling elite of the state of Israel, as Zionist and I quote:

"That, however would be too dangerous for Zionists who might actually find out they had something in common with their Palestinian neighbours and that might undermine the whole Zionist project based on the Palestinian untermensch wouldn't it?"

I also think it is really unhelpful and grossly inaccurate to use language associated with the Holocaust when describing the situation in Palestine/Israel. It is calculated to insult people of Jewish origin and serves to drive them away from questioning and breaking with Zionist ideology. My point in raising this, as an ardent supporter of the liberation of the Palestinian people (and as a byproduct, of the Israeli people) is not to score points but to indicate a serious weakness in your language/method of opposing racist fools like Noel as well as the inaccuracy of your position.

by shipsea Fri Jul 22, 2005 05:06

I didnt think that Ali was referring to all Israelis when he used the term 'Zionists' but only to those extreme elements of Israeli society (unfortunately too much in the ascendant at present) responsible for much of the unjustified oppression of Palestinian people. Most averagely informed people will know this. Many Israeli's use the term in order to distinguish themselves from Zionists whom they also regard as extreme. Equally, I have frequently read and heard a number of Israeli people who compare experiences of the holocaust with the suffering of the Palestinian people. I write as a person with German Jewish ancestry - none of whom are traceable because of the holocaust.

by Noel Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:18

Listen,

Its patently obvious to most people that terrorism in todays world is a muslim phenomonen and no one can deny that, its not as a reult of the US, or western policy etc is as a result of a warped mentality that seeks to destroy the "unbeliever".

Israel is a model of standing up to this terror and should be applauded for its restraint

by shortsleeves Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:22

apart of several looney leftist with who you spoke or whom you read, regard themselves as Zionists?
Leftists and Rightists as one. Even people at "Courage to Refuse" regard it as a Zionist deed.
They regard themselves as Zionist since they think (in their racist, imperialistic way) that Israel had a right to exist. That the Jewish nation (yap! they even think that Jews are nation, not only religion) deserve an independant state of their own, as does the Irish, the French, the Germans.
More than that: surprising enough, they think all of it has already happen, that they do have an independant state of their own, that most of world's nations had recognized.
This is what Zionism means.
You could say - "not all Israelis want to conquer other nation". you could say "many Israelis wish to end the occupation, and think that a good solution is an Independant Palestinian state, alongside of Israel".
Most of the people who think so regard themselves as Zionists.

by shipsea Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:43

Listen
Its patently obvious to most people that terrorism in todays world is a western capitalist phenomonen and no one can deny that, its not as a reult of Muslim policy etc but as a result of a warped mentality that seeks to destroy the "unbeliever" and to force him or her into a capitalist western lifestyle - while exploiting any oil reserves or other regional and territorial advantages the unbelievers may conveniently have available at the same time. The toll of the innocent dead is far greater as a result of western military assault.
The Israeli state ( not all of its people) is a model of this terror which should be internationally isolated for its aggressive actions in Palestine and elsewhere.

by Ali H. Fri Jul 22, 2005 14:23

pre-dates Nazism by over a century.

In any case there is little difference seen from the point of view of the brown-skinned victim (untermensch) in who the white aryan oppressor is.

Unfortunately Zionists, and those who support them or stand idly by saying nothing while they do their work, have transitioned from being oppressed to being the oppressor, without having learned anything in the meantime, other than to be very effective in terms of propaganda to excuse or cover up their crimes.

The crazed rantings of Noel and others who spread the lie that all Muslims are latent terrorists is a hateful, racist aspect of this dirty-tricks campaign.

by Noel Fri Jul 22, 2005 15:06

They are all latent terrorists

by bobcat Fri Jul 22, 2005 15:38

Yes Noel look at London now, I can't believe how right you are - all the muslims are latent terrorists. Just like idiots like you were right 30 years ago when they said that all the Irish in England were latent terrorists, I suppose you think they were right.

by Noel Fri Jul 22, 2005 16:10

Its different cos all they unlike the irish, all are latent terrorists , they shelter the bombers etc and the IRA never used suicide bombers

People need to get real and see the danger of these communities and deal with them

by Geoff Dolan Fri Jul 22, 2005 16:12

Noel is not here to engage in rational debate, he is here to stonewall and troll.This is why he says racist things like 'All Muslims are latent terrorists'. There are many a decent Conservative that does rile this opposition with many a point made, john( dunaree200@hotmail.com) a great example.

I suppose there is a fine line between expressing and arguing your opinion. However, the aforementioned john will listen to your argument and evaluate it. Noel will simply name call and stonewall, and hence is not deserving of any respect or attention. Even Israeli Avi H, staunch Likudnik that he is, still gives some space for listening.Noel does not.He is a racist litttle tadpole. Noel, you are the weakest link goodbye.Riff raff.

by Noel Fri Jul 22, 2005 16:22

You see Geoff,

I represent the majority of people, you cant just tell me to go away. Society here and in britain and the US are realising we have more in common with each other and with Israel than with Muslim societies.

Since the time of the crusades, society in Europe has seen the danger of invading hordes of muslims. Look in any country with a significant population of them and you see breeding grounds for fanaticism and terrorism. Just because you dont agree with me dosnt mean I should go away.

I like you have a right to my views and feel that our society and way of life in under threat from militant islam. The muslim community in Britian has been slow to condemn the recent attacks and we have seen from the past images of bloddy palestinians celebrating the attacks of 9/11 and Madrid. No dont give me this crap, these people are fanatics in support of a corrupt "religion" and are a danger to our way of life and we need to deal with it

by Geoff Dolan Fri Jul 22, 2005 16:30

It is great that children are able to be brought on a little trip to see the world, just like their counterparts in Israel can do. Palestinians are unable to travel anywhere usually.This is because they are stuck in shitty refugee camps with no running water or sanitation half the time, and the fact that they cannot leave this cesspools because they are stateless and have no passports.

Any water resources they do have are expropriated and diverted towards illegal settlements. They same happens to Palestinians that do own land, if they are lucky enough to hold on to it, without it being stolen for 'security' reasons and then used for more settlement building.

Add to that the wide range of human rights abuses that regularly occur, and have been verified by Amnesty international, Human Rights Watch and the U.N. Of course, there are those perverted enough to jump on the side of any 'bad guy'. Many things like N*el would have supported South Africa, arguing that there was a better standard of living for blacks there than in any of the other African nations, more freedoms,etc,etc.These arguments are academic. At the end of the day, Israel/Palestine is a vicous circle, breeding hate and suicide bombers.

I wish a Gandhiesque movement could spring up in Palestine, but Israeli occupied Palestine is much more brutal than any period of the British Raj in India.


The good news is that more and more people round the world know this. Any propagandising on part of riff raff like that thing I was talking about earlier is ignored now by many people.People who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Buddist, and Hindu.

To highlight such abuses is not Anti Israeli. Many Israelis deplore such antics. However, Israel's powerful settler lobby, the same bunch indirectly responsible for Rabin's murder, insist that such measures are necessary for control of the West Bank, what they call 'Judea and Samaria'.

However, today there are a bunch of children being allowed to have a good time rather than endure more house demolitions, settlers bullets, IDF bullets, malnutrition and other assorted nastiness that the likes of paedophiles such as N*** get aroused by.Hipp, hip, horray!

by Geoff Dolan Fri Jul 22, 2005 16:37

I get stiched up many a time, and no, not framed, but actually helped, by Muslim doctors. I have two friends, both Muslim, one Kurd one Afgan. The Kurd loves Bush, the Afgan does not. Neither like to drink too much.

When I was in Hollland, I used to get pissed off with Morroccans the way we get pissed offf with travellers here.

There are things I like about Israel, namely the fact that, ironically, it is an oasis for numerous minorety groups through out the Middle East; Copts, Chaldeans, Armenians, Druze, Beth Israel from Ethipoia, Gays, the list goes on.

But I don't like what the IDF does to the Palestinians.I don't like theft and I don't like it when a bunch of kids are given a break and all a tadpole like you can do is shout them down because you are at heart a racist.You remind me of the freak in the whellchair from Dr.Strangelove.

So I think it is best that right wing apologists like you are ignored.

by Geoff Dolan Fri Jul 22, 2005 16:40

Where do you get off telling me you represent the majorety of people, when in fact that while holding onto their resolve, the people of Britain still condemn Bliars actions in Iraq?

No doubt you will ignore (AGAIN) everything I have just highlighted, which is why you should be ignored, you are a stirrer and a stonewaller...

by Geoff Dolan Fri Jul 22, 2005 16:45

N*** was online I'd imagine it still is, but. no, it will not reply. This thing's game is up, it is the weakest link, shoo.Ugh, shoo.

by noel Fri Jul 22, 2005 17:04

geoff

your day will come

by Geoff Dolan Fri Jul 22, 2005 17:20

'Your day will come.'

Is that a threat?

by Noel Fri Jul 22, 2005 17:27

you will see how your failure to believe the danger will eventually come back to haunt you

is that a threat?

no it is not, unlike palestinians or other muslims I will not resort to violence when someone disagrees with me

by Geoff Dolan Fri Jul 22, 2005 17:28

If the yoke above is referring to the fact that I could be blown up by Islamist terrorists, well then, fine, but so could Muslims.It only takes one man to strap bombs on his person, yet there are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world.

If, on the other hand, this is a threat, well I'm sure the web masters at indymedia are sussing out that yokes host, server, etc.

by Geoff Dolan Fri Jul 22, 2005 17:34

It is not a threat, so my first point is valid.

During the 80s, 90s, I had loads of relatives who were just as much potential victims as the rest of London when the IRA were at the terrorism. Your logic is crude and base.Yes, there were extremists then, there are extremists now. Ignoring Northern Ireland did not work, engaging did.Ignoring human rights abuses in Palestine and Iraq will never work, it will just breed more extremists. Especially people like you with your attitudes.

Are you Irish yourself Noel?How can you reduce 1.6 billion Muslims to the equivalent of an effigey in a Punch cartoon? How can you glibly ignore the suffering of ordinary innocent Muslims? Man, you drain me...

by noel Fri Jul 22, 2005 17:35

i repeat geoff

I am making no threats

I believe however, that unless people see the true nature of islamic fundamentalism then we are in serious danger

I condemn violence and make no threats against you or anyone else, I am merely stating that I feel there is a threat from Islamic Fundamentalism.

If the editors take this as a threat then they too are wrong

I repeat Geoff I make no threats,

Islamic Fundamentalists are making the threats

by imcer Fri Jul 22, 2005 17:40

"If, on the other hand, this is a threat, well I'm sure the web masters at indymedia are sussing out that yokes host, server, etc." Threats againsty private individuals are deleted. IP addresses are only ever logged if the site is under a sustained infrastructural attack and there is no other option but to identify infrastructural attacker. I personally don't take Noel's comment here which is referred to by G. as a direct personal threat. More a prophesy however misguided it may or may not be.

by Geoff Dolan Fri Jul 22, 2005 17:57

I hope it is not a prophecy,imcer, but if it is, then I'm automatically another statistic, alongside those from New York, Bagdad,Tel Aviv, Ramallah, etc. The world sucks.

Noel, fair enough, you arte not threatening me.Yes, Islamic terrortists threaten us all.

But don't tell me the Israeli state and it's policy of land theft,etc, is all sweetness and light.Those guys are cruel bastards.So are the taliban, Al Q, etc, to state the obvious.Al Muhajiroun have posted on here and I've given them a piece of my mind. Don't expect me to believe everything the pro Israeli lobby tells me, I know the IDF is responsible for a lot of nastiness, and I will not swallow that just so I can align myself with some rightist Western ideology.It is all wrong.

Maybe my day will come, who knows.I do know my odds of survival arte much higher than if I was a Palestinian stuck in a cesspit refugee camp. Look at the stats; threee times as many Palestinians have been killled than Israelis, the bulk ogf those dead people from Israel making up IDF soldiers, unfortunatly.

I wish there could be a more rational situation there, but, thanks mostly in part to the actions of IDF and settlers, there is not. And, no, I am not filled with 'judenhass'.

by Ali H. Fri Jul 22, 2005 19:24

Noel you are full of shiite.

NY + Madrid + London = 2752 + 144 + 56
Iraq = 25915

Muslims are 8.8x more likely to be killed by us than vice versa.

The American military killed 37% of them so Muslims are still 3.2x more likely to be killed by us.

This figure mirrors the ratio of Palestinians killed by Israelis when compared to the number of Israelis killed by Palestinians.

Unless we want a permanent neo-con containment situation where we can be interrogated by the CIA in our own country and other similar erosion of civil liberties we need to wean ourselves off oil, get the hell out of Iraq and cut off all aid and economic cooperation to Israel until the Palestinians have their own state!

by Ali H. Fri Jul 22, 2005 19:28

If you take the ratio of the 1.6B Muslims compared to the 400M or so combined population of US, Spain + UK you are 13x more likely to be a victim of US/K state terrorism in Iraq alone than you are to be the victim of a suicide bomber.

by Noel Fri Jul 22, 2005 19:39

Ali,

I guess you're trying a variation on the 'who are the real terrorists' chestnut.

If Israelis are terrorists why did they allow 23 of their own to perish in the Jenin shithole instead of just levelling the place Hama style.
If Israelis are terrorists why have they not used their nukes?
If your Hamas or Hizbullah buddies had nukes would they use them against Israel?

by Geoff Dolan Mon Jul 25, 2005 16:40

When the Chernobyl disaster happened most of Belarus was affected, an d still is to this day.Belarus is very big place.Israel very small place.If big bomb go boom in West Bank, den Israel also c-o-n-t-a-m-i-n-a-t-e-d. No more Holy Land, no more 'defending the West.'

by Geoff Dolan Mon Jul 25, 2005 16:44

Israel used big jcbs, etc, to level houses aprox 1 sq mile there of. People there are still unacccounted for and missing. Planes, helicopters have been regulary used on civilian areas, but guys with guns can still hide under rubble.Infantry is still a brutal necessity in 21st century. Life for a Palestinian is terrible.

This is why it is great that these kids can get out of there for some time. They should be3 warned though to keep clear of starnge men in raincoats called Noel.

by Geoff Dolan Mon Jul 25, 2005 16:46

"If your Hamas or Hizbullah buddies had nukes would they use them against Israel?"

Who said any of us were friends with these lads? We all just feel sorry for the innocent Palestinians.How are things in the JDL?

by By Any Means Necessary Mon Jul 25, 2005 18:14

" If the Euro-American public understood islam as well as they understand Christianity or Judaism or secular radicalism, they would realise that their fears of Muslims are largely groundless and they would be sceptical of the alarmist writings of Islamophopes.

This exaggerated fear of Islam and of Muslims erodes civility, drives wedges of suspicion between religous and ethnic groups and threatens the traditions of mutual respect that lie at the foundations of our society. "

Dr Ricard Bulliet quoted in Daily ireland today....

Noel is undermining western value by his racism...

by Geoff Dolan Mon Jul 25, 2005 18:42

A fundamental interpretation of all three mono theistic middle eastern religions will result in extraordinary high weirdness. Nonetheless, the majorety of adherents to these three religions are largely moderates.The fact that Al Qaeda has surpassed the likes of, say, Aryan Nations or Kach/JDL in their respectives efffectivness in mass destruction is a result of the groundwork completed by this group in Afganistan in the 80s and the funding they received from the CIA.

At the time, the CIA were right to aid the various resistance groups in Afghanistan, on the principle alone that it is wrong to invade a country, especially when the invasion was there to prop up a Stalinist dictatorship. When I mention the CIA, it is simply to highlight the fact that it is for these reasons that Al Qaeda is as strong as it is today.

It is important that ordinary people on the street say hi to one another and ask how each of us are doing, and not look at each other as either 'latent terroists' or 'latent bigots'.

As for that other yoke with it's racist commentary, thats been laid to rest. Most folk are not like that.Granted, we all get pissed off with each other some times, settled folk get annoyed with traveler folk on a day to day basis, and vice versa, in Europe, natives get angry with second generation immigrants, and vice versa.Young Moroccans will sneer at the young white fella in his Slipknot t-shirt.Later that evening, they will probably bump into each other at the former's uncle's kebab shop, and things will be alright.

We must acknowledge this but at the same time resist any pseudo 'scientific' racist rants on behalf of those who might rail, for instance, against Turkey joining the EU, because Ottoman troops made it as far as the gates of Vienna back in the 1600s.( Believe it or not, same wanker Dutch EU commisioner made this offensive argument just last year!)

It is bad enough when politicos attempt this nonsense.What is lower is right wing columnists backing these 'arguments' up in the Sunday Papers.

The good news is that, while there has been an anti Muslim backlash in the UK, it has not and will not, reach the same levels as the US, where the likes of Ann Coulter are best sellers.(Another thread on indymedia pointed out that she was fond of anecdotes exorting the US to invade 'their countries and convert them all to Christianity.'

And here in Galway, I had a good oul chat with an Afghan aquaintence of mine, his Pakistani cousin wrinkled his nose a bit because I was merry with a can in my hand, but whats a white bhoy gonna do whens it's sunny on Spanish Arch?
"Too much, too much, too much drinking heres in Ireland." He promised to get me some khat to chew if I cut down on the drink, because I am his "Friend, friend, very goods friend."

And on that note, I bid y'all, for today,anyway, adieu. :0)