1,500 active in Provisional IRA says McDowell

by Juno Thu Jun 23, 2005 18:26

why is everything IRA this IRA that, aren't the unionist guys as still as active in paramilitary and criminal activity too? one could argue numbers and who's the aggressor but there as bad as each other...?

by Al Thu Jun 23, 2005 19:09

Thats a good point Juno but the reason why the IRA is targeted more in the republic is because the UDA and friends dont live, work, socialise and fund raise in the republic.

by Lol Thu Jun 23, 2005 20:10

Whatever about the UDA, their friends certainly live and socialise in the Republic. Sure, half of them are in the PDs.

by Devil Dog Thu Jun 23, 2005 20:28

Absolutely - the PD's and the UDA even have exchange schemes where young wannabe barristers from Dublin 6 head to east Belfast to learn how to deal drugs, target Catholics etc.

And Mary H has oftern come out in support of killing Catholics...eh, that's right, isn't it?

by kintama Fri Jun 24, 2005 00:41

Mary Hardneck may not have come out in support of killing Catholics but she said precious little over the years about loyalist killings. One can only assume that she did'nt want to offend their sponsors in the British political and security services.
But any problem with the UDA and UVF will no doubt soon be resolved as Diane Dodds DUP had no problem sitting with them the other night .I for one was heartened by her confirmation that they are committed to carrying out good works. Peter Hains next big job will be to remove the ridiculous label of illegal from these paragons of virtue.
Makes you wonder who was trying to burn Catholics out in North Belfast the other night if the UDA/UVF have turned over a new leaf.
The type of people who used to routinely burst their own eardrums in Castlereagh interrogation centre could be on another awful crusade to burn themselves out and blame it on the pan British Front. But if the 1500 disband we can no doubt be assured that Mary and the PDs will not stand idly by if Diane Dodds has got it wrong.

by Al Fri Jun 24, 2005 14:36

McDowell is a PD.

As for the UDA being peace loving people now, well thats not true but you cannot simple ignore or refuse to talk with these groups or the peace process would be completely destroyed within 24 hours and both sides would return to conflict.
As for the UDA being in the Republic, thats a pretty stupid comment.

by kintama Fri Jun 24, 2005 21:11

Not to sure what point you are making about Mc Dowell and the UDA in the republic Al.
I support your view that these groups just can't be ignored however my point relates to the arrogant hypocrisy of the DUP who refuse to negotiate face to face with the largest nationalist party in the six counties but are happy to sit down at talks in the full knowledge that members of illegal groups such as the UDA and UVF will be in attendance.
It also calls into question the activities of the police force and British military when nobody seems to think that a roll call of attendees at a discussion on parades which openly announces that members of an illegal organisation will be in attendance is worthy of attention. Can you imagine the outcry from the hypocrites in the DUP if it was announced that IRA members would be attending a public meeting in that capacity. I think we could be sure they would be asking for the venue and surrounding areas to be carpet bombed.

by kintama Tue Jun 28, 2005 01:05

It would seem that the faith of Diane Dodds and the DUP in their parades talks buddies in UDA/UVF has been misplaced. The Sunday Life reports that UDA/UVF were planning to use weapons at the Springfield Road interface if the Parades Commission decision to reroute the parade was upheld by the PSNI. It appears that the decision to postpone the parade and engage in what presumably was an illegal parade on the Shankill Road was enough to calm the fevered brows of the DUPs terrorists of choice.
Hopefully we will be spared any more hypocrisy from the DUP now that they clearly have accepted the principle that it is OK to talk with terrorists if some benefit can be brought to the community at large. That is of course presuming that the UDA and UVF were not on the talks guestlist as some form of threat.

by Store street Al Tue Jun 28, 2005 16:36

kintama`
I agree with what your saying but the fact is SF are alligned with the republican movements. The DUP are alligned with unionist movements. SF wont speak with the UDA and the DUP wont speak with the IRA. So what we have is political parties talking with terrorist organisations that are basically on the same side as them.
Unfortunately either by intimidation or genuine suuport, these organisations are powerful in their own areas and to exclude them would kill a lot of support for the political parties.
the simple reality is that support for the political parties is based on the beliefs of the paramilitary groups.

My comments about the PD's was simple showing that they are not UDA supporters but McDowell is more concerned with the IRA as they are firmly based within the Republic.

by By Any Means Necessary Tue Jun 28, 2005 17:53

The DUP have always believed that terror is a legitimate form of politics sa long as it is for the Union.

This is a legitimate political view if you support the white christian supremacy preached by Papa Doc and his followers.

Democracy has its price in the DUP world, it is not about civil rights for all, it is not even about unity of the irish protestant population, but about an independent single denomination and single identity six counties.

The votes that it has got is only a reflection of the inability of the unionist population to see beyond the walls they have created, or the myths they have perpetuated.

I am surprised that the IRA have not thousands of more members in the face of the far right, fundementalist Ballymena Taliban and their supporters.

by kintama Wed Jun 29, 2005 01:31

Sorry AL you have got it wrong, as I understand it both the SDLP and SF have consistently indicated a willingness to talk with Unionist politicians and with loyalists if necessary . What you have is a hypocrisy that has extended over the last 35 years where all unionist parties have engaged in talks with loyalist paramilitaries while refusing to talk with elected republican politicians . This hypocrisy has never been faced down by the British whose security services no doubt have interesting tapes of conversations between senior Unionist politicians and the likes of the mass murderer Billy Wright. This behaviour from the British is hardly surprising but what should be shocking to people like you is that it has never been faced down by those in the Free State establishment like O Malley, McDowell and O Brien.
If Mc Dowell and his ilk had asserted nationalist rights 30 years ago instead of pandering to Paisley by trying to demonstrate they hated republicans more than he did we may not still be awaiting the disbandment of the 1500. The notion that Paisley would be impressed by this unashamed repudiation of nationalism was always hopeless . The anti nationalist poodles were always still fenians to him although he was quite happy to exploit their anti republican tirades for his own purposes. His steadfast refusal to accept power sharing demonstrates the total failure of the policy of appeasement. You may for once Al wish to place yourself in the place of a nationalists in the six counties and imagine how you would feel about the likes of Paisley, an irredeemable bigot ,being lionized on the Late Late Show while republican elected representatives could not even be heard on RTE.
Mc Dowell may not be a cheerleader for the UDA but I would be interested if you could produce any evidence of him calling for the banning of this group throughout the period when they were legal despite the fact that they were engaged in sectarian murder since their inception.

by Store Street Al Wed Jun 29, 2005 04:01

Kintama,
Doesnt it strike you that you are falling into the same trap that so many have in the past? Allowing your dislike for one side to ally you with the other.
It doesnt matter to me who it is or what group they are attached to. Paramilitary groups are criminals, murderers and god knows what else. Some may believe in the cause (It could be argued that the IRA and UDA were more commited to 'the cause' than the INLA or the LVF) however I wont allow my feelings against the UDA to soften my views on the IRA.

As for SF, its very easy and a PR boon to claim you are willing to talk when you know the other side wont however it should interest you to know that Trimble met senior members of the IRA and SF many many times prior to the good friday agreement. In fact this almost caused more unionist trouble as he was seen as a traitor and selling out Ulster to the pan-nationalist-front.

As for Paisley, yes I agree 100% he is a bigot who would have no problem exterminating every Catholic in Ulster. Its a sad day for Northern Ireland when that man gains power.

As for McDowell, its quite simple, as people have said before, do the job in front of you. The IRA are active in the Republic. The UDA are not. McDowell cannot make laws in Northern Ireland, the Gardai cannot enforce laws in Northern Ireland. Our priorities are based on the Republic of Ireland.

Now I could state personal opinions, which I have done. Perhaps I despise the IRA so much because they have taken a once proud name and cause such as the IRA and Republicanism and turned them into dirty words.

by Beenaround Wed Jun 29, 2005 04:35

"The IRA are active in the Republic. The UDA are not"

The UDA (and/or their associates) were busy enough in Dublin and Monaghan on the 17th of May 1974. The investigation of those massacres never really amounted to much. Incidently two of those bombs exploded in the area "guarded" by Store Street station.

Also they stabbed a man to death near Sallins sometime in the seventies (not sure of the date) when he stumbled across an attempt to blow up a train heading to the Bodenstown Commeration. Many members of "Official" Sinn Fein (Workers' Party) were on that train.

A firebombing attempt was foiled when an incendiary device ignited in a loyalist's pocket near O'Connell Street (possibly North Earl Street). (Sometime in the eighties?)

Sometime in the late eighties loyalist paramilitaries shot dead a member of Provisional Sinn Fein when he foiled an attempt to bomb a pub in Pearse Street.

Those are just a few of the incidents that spring to mind. I'm sure those were not the full extent of loyalist paramilitary activities in the south.

by Al Wed Jun 29, 2005 23:52

Beenaround, how many IRA members have been arrested in Bolton compared to the UDA?

If your comments are designed to show how active the UDA are in the republic then they fall very very short. For example, how does the 1974 bombing of Dublin show that the UDA are presently active in Dublin? 32 years ago does not prove present day activity. Thats the only incident you speak about. The attack in Pierce Street was not a unionist organisation so please get your facts straight. The remaining 2 attacks you mention are not reported on by any respected journalist, written about in any book about the UDA or similar and perhaps even more importanly, is not even acknowledged by SF.
So you have one attack over 30 years ago and thats it.

As for the bombings, are you simple trying (feebly) to annoy me or do you actually believe that we could have stopped the bombings? If so please advise how considering searching people and cars is constantly recieved with abuse and the offences against the state act is considered barbaric. Baffles me, it really does, you expect so much. But still complain regardless of the results.

by kintama Thu Jun 30, 2005 00:15

No I am not struck at all. It is yourself who has perhaps willingly fallen into the trap of the old 'two sides one as bad as the other theory'. While I have no particular problem with your view on paramilitaries it implies that the British state is some form of impartial referee. That is clearly not the case as the British have been and remain steadfastly unionist . In the context of British sponsorship of a sustained campaign of murder against nationalists, through proxies in the UDA/UVF, the silence of Mc Dowell et al was and is damning. I accept Mc Dowell cannot make laws in the six counties but that is no excuse for abandoning nationalists in the face of a British state sponsored campaign of murder. I ask again did he ever call for the banning of the UDA during the time its sponsors refused to ban it.
I also accept the Gardai cannot enforce laws outside the 26 counties, all the more reason then they should not have handed over vital evidence relating to UDA murders in Dublin ,Dundalk and elsewhere to the British security services. Its hardly surprising that this evidence has disappeared given that the loyalist murder gangs were sponsored by the same security services to whom the evidence was handed over. Unfortunately it would seem there remains those at senior levels in the Gardai who would do the same thing again.

by Barry Thu Jun 30, 2005 00:24

Might have been nice if the guards had gone to the bother of lets say...oooh...INVESTIGATING THE BIGGEST MASS MURDER IN THE HISTORY OF THE STATE .

Instead of spending the last 30 years concealing the damn evidence .

by nottheheavygang Thu Jun 30, 2005 14:59

Maybe Al could ask his colleague at Store Street, Michael Finn, what he was doing around that period in general, and 1975 to 1977 in particular.

by Saoirse Thu Jun 30, 2005 17:11

Stuff the Agreement with 1,500 members we can win. Dig up the weapons and head for the hills

by Al Thu Jun 30, 2005 17:45

Kintama,
Both sides are as bad as each other. The British stance does not legitimize the actions of either side and McDowell was not the minister for justice back then he only joined politics in 1987. Blaming McDowell for actions in the past is like blaming me because no one was convicted for the Dublin bombing. Pretty pointless considering I wasn’t even born then.

Besides, there has never been any concrete evidences that collaboration was official or went further then individual members of the RUC/UDR.

Don’t blame the force for the actions of the renegades.

Barry,
If its mass murder in Dublin by the UDA is it mass murder when your beloved IRA plant bombs? Was it murder when Jerry McCabe was shot?

nottheheavygang,
Mickey Finn is not stationed in Store Street; in fact he isn’t even in the Gardai anymore. I don’t know what he was doing in 75 or 77. I know what he was doing in 76 though. Your point in relation to the topic is? This is relevant because?

Considering my original post was about the IRA being more active in the republic I think Barry, Not and Beenaround pretty much prove my point for me. Thanks guys.

by Betty Thu Jun 30, 2005 18:03

"Was it murder when Jerry McCabe was shot?"

It was manslaughter. You've always contended that you stand by court decisions.

by Al Thu Jun 30, 2005 19:08

Ah Betty, topic number 5 where you dont have anything to say on the subject and only post because I did.

by kintama Thu Jun 30, 2005 23:24

Al I have not followed your less than illustrious career on Indymedia but I am given to believe that you are a member of the Gardai. If that is the case one hopes you are not part of the intelligence services but it would come as no surprise that you are.
The UDA who even the rawest Gardai recruit should know were legal until the early 1990s -after Mc Dowell entered politics. A British state sponsored loyalist gang murdered Martin Doherty in Widow Scallans in 1994 - after Mc Dowell entered politics.
If Mc Dowell et al were'nt trying so hard to present their anti republican credentials to their friends in the British military and unionist police force they may like so many unfortunate nationalists have noticed something rotten with Britians approach to loyalists. The UDA, which surely to God even you could not deny, were involved in a sectarian murder campaign from they were formed. Successive British Governments refused to ban them and why would they when gutless fuckers like Mc Dowell did ;nt challenge them . Mc Dowell and those who allowed this disgraceful hypocrisy by the British are a national disgrace and hopefully he will be ousted at the next election.
The 'British stance' what does that mean ? The British security services were on the same side as the UDA/UVF, they are one of the sides. I am sickened by your ignorant comment about renegades, the evidence of British security services inolvement in all stages of the murder of Pat Finucane is a matter of public record.
Your attitude is however of little surprise when your senior officers wined and dined senior members of RUC Special Branch in Dundalk. One of these people, now deceased, was heavily involved in shoot to kill incidents in Co Armagh where each of the victims was unarmed. But more interestingly one of his own members, a self confessed loyalist, in a statement stated that this man gave his blessing to members of the RUC engaging in terrorist attacks in the South Armagh area when off duty. Senior Gardai , 'by their friends you shall know them.'

by Devil Dog Fri Jul 01, 2005 02:18

So what if the UDA weren't proscribed? Many SF reps were/are IRA terrorists, yet SF was never banned by the British government.


Is there any evidence that the NI security forces were involved in sending that terrorist scumbag Doherty off to meet his maker or is this more Provo spinning? And I believe that was the UVF, not UDA/UFF.

Equally, is there any evidence that McDowell has voiced support of loyalist terrorists? He's obviously doing a great job as Min for Justice if he's pissing all the Provos off so much, not too far behind Kevin O'Higgins - 77 was only a good start.

by Betty Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:09

"Ah Betty, topic number 5 where you dont have anything to say on the subject and only post because I did."

I was commenting on your inaccuracy. I take it you accept that the people who killed (manslaughter) McCabe were members of PIRA. Therefore I fail to see how it is not on subject. Somehow I don't see you getting a transfer to Garda intelligence. (If it exists)

by By Any Means Necessary Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:56

It has finally come out that a leading Orange Order member has been engaged in talks with SF representatives.

This finally shows the hypocrisy of the Orange order who stand by their sectarian policy of not talking to nationalist residents.

The agreement in Derry for the 12th and this revelation is good as it takes a "De Klerk" to come forward and deal with this issue democratically and in a spirit of equality..lack of which was the root cause of the formation of the PIRA.

Make N.ireland History.

by kintama Fri Jul 01, 2005 23:48

Ah the Dog awakens.
No surprises about glorification of murders from the man who wallows in state murders of women and children in Iraq. Funny how Blueshirts can use silly little taunts about the death of republicans without fear of censure from the media . Your crass comments likes Als, and your shared military/police backgrounds, do little to dispel the perception that grunts and plods are of low intelligence.
Plenty of RUC,UDR and British soldiers were members of, and provided logistical support to, loyalist paramilitaries and they were'nt banned so yah boo. It is of course the case that there was a broadcasting ban on Sinn Fein. Its a pity there wasnt a ban imposed on that ridiculous apologist for loyalist terror against children at Holy Cross one Tim Collins.
You really should learn to read before you mouth off I did 'nt say McDowell supported the UDA if you are going to comment answer the points made not what you want to see.
I didnt say the UDA killed Martin Doherty but there is evidence that British security services colluded with loyalists who murdered civilians in the 26 counties. For someone who has no problem forming a view on who robbed the Northern Bank you have suddenly become a bit ptrecious about needing evidence. Of course if Als mates had'nt been so ready to had over the evidence that could have conclusively proved British security involvement in murders even you could'nt have continued to live in a state of denial.

by Al Sat Jul 02, 2005 00:30

Comment on IMC Editorial Policy deleted. If you persist in mixing comment on the policies of this site with your responses to issues raised by other posters then your entire post will be deleted. Do not reply to this comment except via imc-ireland-editorial@lists.indymedia.org Thank you. IMC Ireland Editorial.

I fail to see how our comments show low intelligence. Like I have said before, I have 3rd level education and a perfectly acceptable IQ (70% of Garda applications fail the IQ test). What’s your education Kintama?

I find it hilarious that you accuse us of condoning murder when you are defending the IRA. Probable the biggest murderers in our land.

You attack our comments but can provide no evidence of your own. First you say the British government helped loyalist terrorists and now your saying that some grunts (with low intelligence) collaborated. Which is it?

As for my mates, please explain how a force with no authority in Northern Ireland could charge people living in the north without the RUC being involved? Please, I would love to hear this.

Pray tell, seeing as you condemn RUC and UDR personnel being members of the UDA, etc, if a Garda was a member of the IRA would he therefore become a hero in your eyes? Or is it a case of say nothing because the Gardai weren’t involved.

I think you will also find that SF was banned from broadcasting in the republic because they did broadcast in the Republic. The UDA did not.

I really fail to see your point, either you don’t agree with terrorists, in which case you dislike the UDA, UVF, IRA and all the others or you are an IRA sympathiser which means you defend murder as long as its committed by republicans. Which is it? And to think, I’m the one making crass comments.

And finally, why do you think McDowell was in a position to oppose the UDA? He only gained power in 1999; 7 years after the UDA were banned. He is in charge of Justice since 2001. 3 years after the Good Friday agreement. What is it you wanted from him in 1987? Considering his party had no power, very few seats and a very low voice.

by rooster Sat Jul 02, 2005 16:46

''Its a pity there wasnt a ban imposed on that ridiculous apologist for loyalist terror against children at Holy Cross one Tim Collins.''


If you did read his book you would see that he was deeply shamed that people from NI were doing what they were.

by kintama Sun Jul 03, 2005 20:09

Rooster, only read an extract where he blames nationalists for something evidence in the public domain when he wrote the book proved to be incorrect. He uses false allegations to justify actions by loyalists which by any measure, apart from that used by the BBC,RUC and NIO, were criminal and disgraceful . Is there anywhere in the book where he expresses shame about the murder of civilians by the army he served in? I must have missed the sense of shame he alludes to because none of the unionists politicians for the area stood or walked with the children under attack. PS there are people in NI ashamed of what he was doing in Iraq.
Al not sure where to start when you continue to pose questions in relation to comments I never made. First my educational qualifications are at least equivalent to yours. Did'nt realise you needed a degree to get into the Gardai might just apply myself because it seems some of my contribution to state funds is going to pay you to piss about on Indymedia when you should be working.
I dont recall ever defending the IRA and I do not accept that pointing out that state forces were equally murderous as paramilitaries is a defence of anyone. You have obviously forgotten a long broadcasting ban on Sinn Fein by the British State. Your other points are either wrong or pointless so I shall desist from commenting on them.

by kintama Sun Jul 03, 2005 20:10

Rooster, only read an extract where he blames nationalists for something evidence in the public domain when he wrote the book proved to be incorrect. He uses false allegations to justify actions by loyalists which by any measure, apart from that used by the BBC,RUC and NIO, were criminal and disgraceful . Is there anywhere in the book where he expresses shame about the murder of civilians by the army he served in? I must have missed the sense of shame he alludes to because none of the unionists politicians for the area stood or walked with the children under attack. PS there are people in NI ashamed of what he was doing in Iraq.
Al not sure where to start when you continue to pose questions in relation to comments I never made. First my educational qualifications are at least equivalent to yours. Did'nt realise you needed a degree to get into the Gardai might just apply myself because it seems some of my contribution to state funds is going to pay you to piss about on Indymedia when you should be working.
I dont recall ever defending the IRA and I do not accept that pointing out that state forces were equally murderous as paramilitaries is a defence of anyone. You have obviously forgotten a long broadcasting ban on Sinn Fein by the British State. Your other points are either wrong or pointless so I shall desist from commenting on them.

by Barry Sun Jul 03, 2005 20:57

The Garda Siochana simply didnt investigate the Dublin Monagahan bombings. Theyve covered up for decades (the recent missing files being another example of their willingness to serve British interests as opposed to thr Irish people . When the Dublin Monagahan relatives gathered on the 20th anniversary of the atrocity Garda members even harassed them .

Joe Tiernan has discovered from interviews with gardai who were present in 74 that eyewitnesses identified a number of known loyalists from Garda photographs yet no requests for extradition were ever made . The only thing handed accross the border was the bomb evidence and forensics - handed back to the ery state forces who sanctioned this mass murder .

Al can just sit and smugly declare there is no evidence of state collusion because he knows full well his police force did their damndest to hide the evidence . Its an insult to those victims as well as our intelligence .

What has been proven without a doubt is that the massive arsenal of SAfrican weapons supplied to loyalist death squads in the mid 80s was most definitely imported into the north by the British authorities and distributed to loyalist killers the length and breadth of the North .

Whats Als view on this episode ? Does he believe that this was also the work of a few maladjusted "grunts" ?

by kintama Sun Jul 03, 2005 21:49

A very good point made by Barry about the disgraceful monitoring and harassment of families and friends of victims of the Dublin bombing by elements of the Gardai. Similar to the victimisation of people travelling to Derry for Bloody Sunday commemorations by Al's mates in the RUC and British Army.
Al might want to explain why people attending Dublin bomb commemorations needed to be photographed. Then again he will probably want to make some spurious point which evades the question which seems to be a particular trait of apologists for state murder and intimidation.

by Al Mon Jul 04, 2005 02:15

Kintama,
If you cannot be mature enough to admit you have no answers then I see no point in debating anymore with you. My questions are pointed exactly at you in reponse to previous posts under your name and all you come back with is the tired old anti-garda crap.

As for pissing about on Indymedia, please check any Garda roster and try to figure out what unit I work on considering I post exclusively at home unlike many, many users here who only post Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm. Unit A are working now and Im posting but it was unit B the last time I posted and on and on and on.

So, either answer these questions or dont waste my time:

A, please explain how a force with no authority in Northern Ireland could charge people living in the north without the RUC being involved?

B, either you don’t agree with terrorists, in which case you dislike the UDA, UVF, IRA and all the others or you are an IRA sympathiser which means you defend murder as long as its committed by republicans. Which is it?

C, why do you think McDowell was in a position to oppose the UDA? He only gained power in 1999; 7 years after the UDA were banned. He is in charge of Justice since 2001. 3 years after the Good Friday agreement. What is it you wanted from him in 1987? Considering his party had no power, very few seats and a very low voice.

D, when did I defend state murder and when did this happen? What state murders?

E, When did you transfer me to the RUC? I wasnt told.

Barry,
The hater of the special criminal court but yet makes statements of 'fact' without a shred of evidence. Please provide proof to your claims that the British supplied arms from SA.

And as for dodging the question, last I heard this thread wasnt about Dublin/Monaghan however perhaps I should refresh your memory and show you the previous (and numerous) threads where I have discussed this topic. But for the sake of simplicity let me say it again. I wasnt even alive when that happened, get it? thats like blaming your neighbour for what his English ancestor did during the famine. I was not born, I was not there, I did not investigate it. You want to attack me as a Garda then try using a case I actually handled.

Now, will you answer my question? The one I posted on the 30th.

Actually can either of you provide any proof to back up your claims? Will either of you answer the straight questions put to you?

by Barry Mon Jul 04, 2005 05:17

was the key man involved in the importation of S African arms in the mid 80s . Nelson was directly controlled by Colonel Gordon Kerr who led the British Armys FRU, operating out of Lisburn Barracks . Far from Kerr being considered a bad egg by the British for his murderous activities which resulted in the deaths of 100s of innocent civilians he was promoted to the plum job of military attache to Beijing where he currently resides. He is today a senior British diplomat .

http://www.birw.org/BIRW%20response%20to%20Stevens%203.html

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,901030428-444956,00.html

http://www.impartialreporter.com/archive/2001-02-22/news/story1465.html

Kerr was most definitely not a rogue operator as he reported personally to Thatcher herself .

Id also point out that my post was most definitely not a personal attack on Al who I dont even know . What I asked was what was his opinion of a government (which he clearly supports) importing massive arms shipments into this country , giving them to murderous gangs of bigots and causing the deaths of 100s of civilians some of whom died in the 26 counties as well . Predictably Al claims it cant be proven and dodges the issue . Well Al the Corey report, as well as the 3 Stevens reports, BBC documentaries and numerous other journalistic sources believe this to be true. The British government dont even deny it and neither do the Irish either. Nelson admitted fully that he was a British agent and the British army have admitted this too. Absolutely no-one disputes this FACT.

As for his post on the 30th , the British government and its army occupies my country . It has long operated state sponsored death squads which deliberately terrorised the civilian population killing 100s .

Its agents such as Nelson, Robin Jackson and others had a licence to kill north and south of the border

http://www.dublinmonaghanbombings.org/oralsubdm27jan04page2.html

http://www.relativesforjustice.com/victims/victims_collusion_f_l.htm

In my opinion Irish people have every right to resist this illegal occupation and campaign of mass murder ( for thats exactly what happened) by planting bombs as well as using guns ( bows , arrows, pikes and spears arent much use ) . They have always had the right to do so whether in 1916 , 1921 , 1971 or today. All peoples have the right to remove a foreign occupier especially one which deliberately murders 100s of civilians in order to terrorise them into submission .

If Al or anyone else regards the British governments occupation of part of this island as legitimate then they must also regard its activities as legitimate . One cannot differentiate between the two . If I as an Irish republican have to be held morally accountable for all civilian deaths at the hands of Irish guerillas then anyone who supports the British government faces the exact same quandary . If you believe the British states presence here as legitimate then by extension you lend moral support to the activities of that state . If you support and collaborate with the armed forces of that state you lend support to the activities of those same forces.

While Al wasnt around during the Dublin Monaghan episode ( or maybe even the murders of Eddie Fullerton and Martin Doherty in the 90s) its safe to assume he was about when the gardas files into the biggest mass murder in the states history disappeared from their Dublin archives last year . The organisation of which he is a member made sure these files disappeared . They did not just grow legs and walk off . Im not attacking Al personally, I certainly dont hate all guards . But Id like to hear his opinion on this . But I know I wont hear it, he'll dodge this one too .

Michael McDowell as minister for justice certainly didnt go through the roof at this latest disappearance of evidence . The fact that membersof An Garada Siochana took it upon themselves yet again to cover up for loyalist and British intelligence murderers is not worthy of investigation in McDowells opinion . No one has even been arrested for this disgraceful disappearance intended to pervert the course of justice , never mind sacked . McDowell doesnt care .

Al, this is not an attack on you. Ive answered your post . What is your opinion of a government which imports hundreds of assault rifles, pistols, grenades and even RPG 7 rocket launchers to loyalist killers ? Do you not recognise that many people felt the need to take a stand and resist this ?

What is your opinion on the disappearance of state files into the biggest mass murder in modern Irish history ? do you recognise that this has seriously harmed peoples faith in the force youre a member of ?

by Al Mon Jul 04, 2005 13:34

Barry,
You answered my question with a question. Its a simple yes or no answer.

Do you support IRA killing of civilian protestants? Yes or no?

For the purpose of this question we will limit 'civilian' to people that are not members of the british security forces, RUC and UDR and loyalist paramilitaries.

Now, as for Dublin/Monaghan it appears I will have to provide a link, so here it is but I fail to see why when you have commented on this thread yourself. http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69981&search_text=dublin%20monaghan&search_comments=on

Now, onwards yet again. Nelson was an informer, there is more proof that his information avoided killings than aided them. There is no proof that his moves were sanctioned by his handlers. Understand Barry? An informer. Thats a criminal that provides information to the police/army. They are not members of either party. He was also in charge of intelligence that was going the other way as intelligence officer for the UDA but again, no evidence that any information came directly from senior authority. In fact, soldiers and RUC officers were punished for handing over informtion.

So for the last time, By questioning points made and asking for proof does not mean I A, support loyalist organisations or B, Think that the RUC were squeeky clean. I simple dislike all paramilitary organisations. The UDA or similar attacking a catholic does not excuse IRA killing an innocent protestant. If you are going to make accusation then be prepared to prove it.

by on the one road - none Mon Jul 04, 2005 15:56

A, please explain how a force with no authority in Northern Ireland could charge people living in the north without the RUC being involved?


please explain how dessie ellis was extridited from ireland to england in 1990






B, either you don’t agree with terrorists, in which case you dislike the UDA, UVF, IRA and all the others or you are an IRA sympathiser which means you defend murder as long as its committed by republicans. Which is it?



may be he dosn't understand the hypocracy of the brit state who say they don't like terrorists but arm train and co - ordinate pro brit terrorists in ireland and in the case of the irish state turn a blind eye, just a suggestion.





C, why do you think McDowell was in a position to oppose the UDA? He only gained power in 1999; 7 years after the UDA were banned. He is in charge of Justice since 2001. 3 years after the Good Friday agreement. What is it you wanted from him in 1987? Considering his party had no power, very few seats and a very low voice.



was mcdowell ever quite as a politician?
when did the PD's have a small voice there first election they got something like 15 seats they were made up of and formed from a split involving high profile disatisfied members of FF, they were the darlings of the media to my knolawdge there was never a media ban on there membership?

D, when did I defend state murder and when did this happen? What state murders?

i pesume state murder was dublin/monaghan bombings eddie fullerton/ pat finucine/ etc i.e were theres a stong belief that the brit state for example were involved/ gave the ok for killing.


E, When did you transfer me to the RUC? I wasnt told.

when you stand idly by whats the diferance in fairness.

by on the one road Mon Jul 04, 2005 16:13

on the D and M bombings just to remind you, bertie said he's thinking of takeing the brits to the european court for failing to co-operate with the barron repot, barron himself thinks theres something like 300 files he was denied access to in the brit record office in london.



on brian nelson, according to his sister in a bbc spotlight his brit army handlers created the filing system and added to it, one former member of the UDA said to journalist peter taylor in his book loyalists "they had information down to the socks there targets were wereing provided by the security forces", and there load more stories that over 30 yrs keep cropping up and start making it look less like coincidance and more co-ordinated, if fairness if you'd look at it, in fact the brit army hand book on countering gurrilla tactics advocates useing sudo groups - counter insurgency stratagy in malayia - frank kittsion - former GOC in 6 counties, in fairness has to be more than co-incidence.

by Barry Mon Jul 04, 2005 16:23

The question you asked me on the 30th was " was it murder when your beloved IRA planted bombs ?" . You never mentioned innocent protestants , instead you inferred that everyone killed by an IRA bomb was murdered and so I answered with my opinion of that assertion . No , the IRA campaign against British rule was a legitimate war of resistance .

Now in order to continue dodging the issue youve asked me a completely different question ( as well as spouting utter nonsense into the bargain) But Ill answer this one too.

Anyone deliberately killing a non-combatant regardless of their religion , anyone DELIBERATELY AND WILFULLY killing an uninvolved civilian is committing a war crime, an act of murder. Republicans did on occasion commit war crimes. Totally innocent people were deliberately murdered in a number of incidents over the years of a prolonged resistance campaign . Sectarian attacks undoubtedly occured given the nature of British interference in the 6 cos. For example the Kingsmills attack in South Armagh is an example . After literally dozens of catholic civilians were deliberately murdered by a British Army/ RUC death squad posing as UVF members, republicans committed a sectarian atrocity in the belief that these mass murders emanated from South Armaghs protestant community . But they didnt , they emanated from within British intelligence who simply used members of the crown forces within that area to carry out their dirty work . Dublin Monaghan was just one atrocity the British launched from that very area . This mass murder campaign though came to an abrupt halt following the interception of Cpt Robert Niarac in South Armagh as he scouted a bar for another massacre . It was the actions of the British armys intelligence operatives which in this case ratcheted up sectarian tensions in that area . The overwhelming majority of attacks there were against the crown forces . The vast majority of protestants in that area remained unmolested throughout the campaign . They live in peace with their neighbours today as they did throughout the troubles in Crossmaglen , Creggan and Forkhill, untouched and unharmed .

Actions like Kingsmills and others did occur which besmirched republicanism and ran contrary to the principles of the 1916 proclamation . Compared to the record of British Army , RUC and their loyalist puppets these incidents were mercifully rare but unfortunately not rare enough.

Republicans though did most definitely not target innocent protestant civilians as a matter of routine . The camaign directed against the catholic community by the British state however was most definitely a murderous one aimed almost exclusively at non combatant civilians.

Your assertion that Brian Nelson was a mere informer is totally wrong ( just as mass murderer Robin Jackson wasnt an informer) . Nelson was an undercover military operative for the FRU . ie he was a SERVING MEMBER OF THE BRITISH ARMY . He was especially flown in from West Germany by the British Army and installed by them as director of UDA intelligence . Your claim that he saved more lives than were lost is utter bullshit, complete total and utter bullshit . Under his and colonel Kerrs direction the kill rate of the near dormant UDA went through the roof . Loyalist paramilitaries had only killed a handful of people in the five years prior to this. Under FRU guidance they began murdering by the score targetting men women and children deliberately , not differentiating between young or old . And the massive modern arsenal they used to murder all those people from 87 onwards was imported by Brian Nelson and his British Army bosses .

Saved lives my arsehole. It has now emerged that the only lives Nelson saved were those of highly placed IRA informers such as Fred Scapittici . Innocent catholics like Francisco Notarantonio were set up for execution in their stead. In fact very few republicans , especially IRA members were killed . The FRUs victims were almost wholly civilians . The Stevens report which I linked to clearly highlights this. Catholics who were targetted were neither warned or protected .

Simply because a few grunts got their knuckles rapped for passing on info doesnt excuse the British authorities murderous activities . The man responsible for directing this campaign of murder was promoted to the rank of Brigadier and made a senior British diplomat .

Far from your beloved British authorities merely not being "sqeaky clean" they were and are rotten to the core . Thats one reason why so many people took up arms against them .

Als deliberate attempts to seperate the proxy campaign of mass murder which the British directed for 30 years from the civilian murders they claimed officially is a blatant smokescreen . The few bad apples theory has been proven time and again to be a total falsehood . These murders were official state policy , including the murders in Dublin Monaghan . Al asked for proof and I gave him the links . I asked him for a comment and he just ignored it . If Al really is representative of the guards no-one should now be surprised that the Garda files just disappeared . Hell not hear a bad word said about her majestys crown forces .

by Al Mon Jul 04, 2005 17:12

Road,
A, He was extradited under the 1987 agreement between the 2 countries. Please explain how that proves your point? It proves mine more.

B, your point? Its a yes or no question.

C, Again, whats your point? What is it that was expected? He was NOT in power.

D, Again, where did I defend state murder? Please show a quote that I defend the bombings or murders? If you could read properly I am the only person here who condemns all murders regardless of who did it or to whom.

E, What is you want me to do? Its a different fucking jurisdiction for starters, what are you a moron?

Barry,
Oh my god, you really believe all that dont you? You really think the IRA only 'on occasion' killed innocents. Amazing that you can accuse a minority of the evil acts in the IRA but condemn an entire military/police force.

As for your links that 'prove' your claims. Heres a few quotes from YOUR links:

"confirmed that collusion had occurred but concluded that it was not widespread or institutionalised" and "11 UDR soldiers were charged with 15 offences, all of which led to convictions".

You seem to be under the illusion that a persons opinion or a quote is the same as proof. Its not, your links suggest things but provide no proof. They suggest wide spread collusion and maybe they are right however at this moment in time there is little proof of their claims. Maybe in years to come they will find the proof and should this happen I will change my stance, however I dont really have a stance on that subject.

And more importantly, the IRA targeted the british forces and the RUC according to you. Is it really a surprise if they spent more time fighting the people targeting them? I dont think so.

So, in conclusion, I dont defend murder by any party or person. If acts were carried out by soldiers, the RUC, UDA or IRA. Its all the same to me, murder is murder is murder. I do however require proof not biased opinions.

by Barry Mon Jul 04, 2005 17:18

Not a single RUC officer was ever prosecuted for passing on files. Only a handful of UDR dole-patrollers were.

by Scuzzee Mon Jul 04, 2005 17:44

Al, you demand proof when it suits you. What about your "proof" for the Northern Bank robbery?

by Barry Mon Jul 04, 2005 18:12

But your a very poor apologist for these criminals . Your unbelivably selective quote about collusion not being widespread or institutionalised comes from the Stevens 1 report 1990 . This report was judged to be so inadequate it was scrapped and no less than TWO further Stevens reports were compiled . Almost 15 years of investigation since this initial quote was made paints a very different picture . Unbelievable as a policeman you failed to notice this glaring point so Im really wondering what youre playing at here .

The Stevens 2 report was found to be so controversial it never saw the light of day . Stevens three is there for you to read .

You know full well that the standard of proof you claim to require before youll admit the British authorities sanctioned terrorist murders can only come about by either a public enquiry or by uncovering a massive amount of documentation were officials actually admit on paper they did such a thing . Even Slobadan Milosevich and Adolf Hitler and their officials were careful never to commit their intent to murder civilians to paper on an official basis so whats your game on this ? Why are you so defensive about the British states murder of civilians (were not even talking about the ones they did in uniform and in broad daylight here)

The British government wont permit a full public enquiry as well you know ( they wont co-operate in Dublin Monanaghan either, strange that for such a friendly neighbour with such a record opposing terrorism from any quarter). Theyve attempted to restrict the terms of any future enquiry into Pat Finucanes murder to a degree were it becomes a laughing stock .

And Stevens three has highlighted that many official records were either deliberately destroyed, mysteriously lost or simply never kept in the first place .

For example the admission by Ken Barratt in police custody shortly after the Finucane murder that not only did he kill Pat Finucane but that senior Special Branch officers told him to do it and ensured he had a free run . This taped confession disappeared . Barrett wasnt charged untill over a decade later when he blabbed in front of a journalist who publicised it . A senior British politician, Douglas Hogg was briefed by British intelligence figures only weeks before Finucanes murder to make an inflammatory speech in the House of Commons which sealed Finucanes fate . This killing went to a very high level indeed . The gun used to kill finucane was even supplied by the military . After the killing it was given back to them . They then replaced the weapons slide making it forensically untraceable to the killing and gave it back to the killers . And Stevens claims from the military files his team eventually tracked down this is only the tip of the iceberg .

He also claims that over the 15 year period were his team investigated his team was continually obstructed and hampered at a high leveland even threatened by both the British Army and RUC. At one stage his locked office inside a secure base was set on fire on the very morning they went to arrest Army agent Nelson . No mere disaffected grunt managed to do that .

Collusion was widespread and went right up the chain of command through the FRU, MI5 and RUC Special Branch. They directed the activities of these murdering bastards and armed them to the teeth . The force that youre a member of has willingly co-operated with these same murderers, collaborates with them and even covered up their crimes including murder on the southern side of the border . The Dublin Monaghan files going walkies just recently from Garda custody indicates how deep this support goes .

You support the British state which authorised these killings so its unsurprising youre so dismissive of the murders this states forces committed .

By the way I did not claim anywhere that the IRA from 1969 to 1997 only killed civilians of an occasion . I clearly stated that the deliberate killing of uninvolved civilians only rarely took place . Many civilians were killed in accidental explosions , careless operations and wild exchanges of gunfire with the crown forces . But the deliberate killing of innocent civilians was definitely a rare occurence , but like I said unfortunately not rare enough over the 30 years .

by Reality Check Mon Jul 04, 2005 20:15

Sinn Féin pair pressed over McCartney case
From:ireland.com
Monday, 4th July, 2005



Two members of Sinn Féin are being pressed by the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman's office to give detailed accounts of what they saw on the night Robert McCartney was attacked in a Belfast bar and killed outside it last January, writes Peter Murtagh in Belfast

Despite Sinn Féin protestations that party members are co-operating fully with the McCartney family's quest for justice, the two individuals have yet to say whether they will give interviews to investigators from the ombudsman's office.

The investigators are acting as intermediaries on behalf of the Police Service of Northern Ireland because of a refusal by Sinn Féin members to deal directly with the police.In the aftermath of the killing and its cover-up, Sinn Féin came under pressure from members of Mr McCartney's family.

In early March, Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams said the party had suspended seven members. Mr Adams said they would remain "suspended from membership and from any involvement in Sinn Féin activity pending the outcome of the legal process".

Although the legal process has only begun in relation to two people who have been charged, and both the PSNI and Police Ombudsman's office say investigations are continuing, a fortnight ago Sinn Féin announced that five of the party members who had been suspended had had their suspensions lifted.

A statement said the five and one other party member whom the party said had also been suspended "have made statements to the Police Ombudsman and are continuing to co-operate with her office". A decision on lifting the sixth person's alleged suspension would be made in due course, said the statement.

However, inquiries by The Irish Times have established:

The dozen or so statements given to the ombudsman via a Belfast solicitor used by Sinn Féin are of little or no evidential value.
At least one is unsigned and several others confirm that while the person making the statement was in the bar, they claim to have seen nothing.
The PSNI, through the ombudsman, has been trying to get two members of Sinn Féin to agree to be interviewed by ombudsman investigators, but so far without success.
To date only one member of Sinn Féin, a woman who was in the bar, has been interviewed by the ombudsman's office on foot of making a statement via the solicitor. That interview took place in March, and was detailed. However, when word spread among Sinn Féin members about the sort of questions being asked, no one else came forward for interview.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/5858133?view=Eircomnet

by kintama Tue Jul 05, 2005 00:18

Al it seems that it is more than I who has spotted your Alice in Wonderland approach to posts, answering questions that were not asked and posing questions that dont that relate to the points made. Nonetheless response to your questions:-
(a) You obviously know what this is meant to mean but I am afraid I cannot link it to any point made . Please translate.

(b) I dont wish to define myself by your either or options however question already answered ,see second sentence of post dated 29 June 11.15pm and third last sentence of post dated July 3 7.10pm.

(c) Interesting concept that political parties or politicians are only in a position to condemn violent groups and acts when in power. You really should speak to RTE,BBC and UTV.

(d) Glad to see you now accept (see your post 4 July 4.12 pm ) that British Army and RUC acts are as bad as paramilitaries. Strange then that even though all parties have been involved in the murder of many innocent civilians you dont hate state forces just paramilitaries.

(e) Get a life.

If you are going to address all the points made which you have ignored to date,presumably because you have no answer, I would be happy to continue the discourse. If however you wish to persist with the Alice stuff then dont bother on my account as in those circumstances I consider the correspondence closed.