In the past week-200 Iraqis dead, 15 U.S. soldiers, 1 British soldier..response to Irish complicity?

by Today Wed May 04, 2005 12:46

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050504/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

by righteous pragmatist Wed May 04, 2005 18:01

Islamic terrorists- Al-Qeada terrorists led by Al-Zarqawi whom Bin Laden has called his "emir" or "prince" in Iraq.
The people of Iraq the vast majority of whom are Shia or Kurd voted in the first democratic elections in Iraqi history on January 30th 2005 and a new interim government has been formed until the elections in final elections December. The U.S. and coaltion forces are trying to protect those brave Iraqi people who defied the bombers and killers.
Wahabism the ideology of Al-Qeada is a sect of the Sunni tradition and the Sunni minority in Iraq were the most loyal supporters of Saddam Hussein. It is no suprise that the terrorists killing Shias and Kurds are Sunnis not just from central Iraq but Syria and Saudi Arabia also and it is no suprise that Al-Qeada and Baathists are working together against their common enemy. The Syrians also a Baathist government have also been the masterminds of the assassination of the former prime minister of Lebanon last February which bore all the hallmarks of Al-Qeada.
The responsibility for the continued violence in Iraq rests with the killers of Al-Qeada the same killers who blew up Sergio De Mello the UN representative, Margaret Hassan and Ken Bigley.

by redjade Wed May 04, 2005 18:11

Hey Righteous

connect these dots....

'Wahhabism is the official form of Islam in Saudi Arabia.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

George W recently met with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah....

George's mate

by bobcat Wed May 04, 2005 19:48

Righteous, you're living in fantasy land. "Wahabism the ideology of Al-Qeada is a sect of the Sunni tradition and the Sunni minority in Iraq were the most loyal supporters of Saddam Hussein" You cannot link Saddam Hussein's regieme to Islamic fundamentalism and here's why, firstly Saddam Hussein's government was SECULAR, all reports done by the U.S. government since the war have shown categorically that there is little or no evidence to suppot the theory that the Bathist regieme in Iraq and Bin Laden were linked. Which brings me to my second point: At the beginning of the first Gulf war Bin Laden offered his 'services' in fighting Saddam (his supposed buddy) so enraged was he by the invasion of an islamic state (Kuwait) by a secular one (Iraq).
I don't think that the killing of innocent people en masse by anybody is right but the U.S. and its allies continue to cause carnage in Iraq and opposition is still justified because of the illegal and agressive nature of the war itself.

by Ciaron - PSP5/DCW (personalcapacity) Thu May 05, 2005 10:15

OK, I posted this article to initiate debate on the war and Irish resposnes (if any) to Irish complicity in it.

Since I posted..Lyndie England had her "guilty" plea rejected by her Trial Judge and walks free....she is the US Abu Grab gal who had the naked Iraqi on the leash. (She was plea bargaining in the hope of getting a predicted 11 year sentence down to a 3 and my gawd she hit the jackpot!

So that sends a significant message to the Islamic world .......and also the news that the U.S. marine who shot 3 (not 1 as we first thought but 3!) unarmed woulnded Iraqi's in the Fallujah mosque "He's faking it, he's not dead, h's fuckin faking it BLAM, he's dead now!" was also acquitted yesterday by a military court in the U.S. A second marine who shot a fourth wounded unarmed Iraqi in the same mosque is expected to be acquited today.

Meanwhile $US96.6 million of US FEd Govt. cash has gone missing in Iraq...Feds suspect managers, contracers and US merceneries of ripping it off.....and Raytheon, Northrop have been outed as consistently overcharging, ripping off inflating contracts (all this on CBS NEWS last night and apparently the U.S. nation is not outraged! Bill Hicks where are you, we need you now!)

Meanwhile back on this posting, no repsonses to the article I posted and no debate thus far....the 2nd comment (R.P0 seems to be a response to the 1st. comment and he doesn't seem to have read the article or "The House of Saud". See ya in another 24 hours!

by A10 Thu May 05, 2005 14:17

Posted there of Bush and pal.Want to go back to "propaganda and photo retouching class101."
Glad to hear the Marine got off as well.Anyone who has been in combat[proably 0.00000001% of the people who post here]will know that when you ae in a situation of him or me,and have been dealing with "people " who think nothing of booby trapping their injured comrades or their dead,or playing dead then shooting.That anyones sane response will be if the injured or the corpose so m uch as moves ,will get an extra round.
nasty,but no one said war had rules.

by nicolo Thu May 05, 2005 14:24

Actually A10 anyone who has been in combat knows that there are rules governing the conduct of war, the geneva conventions etc etc, all countries have signed up to these and they included specific details regarding treatment of enemy wounded.

Its a crime to kill a wounded enemy and every soldier knows this, I agree its not pretty but there are rules and dont try and bullshit people on this.

Know your facts before you speak A10 and stop trying to impress people by saying you have been in combat, its takes a reral soldier to show restraint when faced with a wounded enemey and resisit the urge to kill, the actions of these marines was cowardly and illegal and thats the truth.

What would you say if it was insurgents killing wounded americans, ah yes A10 that would be terrorism wouldnt it

by redjade Thu May 05, 2005 14:26

'Posted there of Bush and pal.Want to go back to "propaganda and photo retouching class101." '

resized yes - 'touched up' no....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050426/photos_bs_afp/050426113733_ldrg7w4q_photo0

by redjade Thu May 05, 2005 14:56

Ciaron, yeah that Irish complicity thing - its become a 'been there - done that' kind of issue these days.

as eeeekkk and i discovered yesterday we have yet to find ONE publishing of the phrase 'Route Irish' in the Irish Times or RTÉ. The pentagon, US soldiers and American media having been using this phrase to describe the motorway between Baghdad and the Airport for many months now. Especially, more recently, in regards to the shootings of Giuliana Sgrena and death of Nicola Calipari. Something that alerted the Italian public to their own complicity so much that Berlusconi is now (slowly) pulling out the troops.

The effect here? none whatsoever!

Regardless of the reasons why that road is called Route Irish, the question of the Irish Media fearing the phrase is certainly interesting. And it shows a deeper complicity than merely FF politicians groveling with bowls of shamrocks once a year.

The Sir Anthony's and Bertie's of Ireland know that a majority do not like this war and do not like Bush. Some event could happen which could cause a re-examining of the Shannon issue. I once was optimistic and should the guantanamo torture jet issue would force Irish Politics off the fence. Silly me. Yet, Ireland is a still crucial pivot point in the Iraq War - 90,000 passed through in first 3 months of 2005. And so is Intel and Raytheon etc also a pivot point in Ireland's economic success. And that's the dodgy handshake - the unspoken deal.

A gentleman's handshake - perhaps it doesn't require conspiracy, just a wink and a nod and nothing for them to worry about anyway - the anti-war movement, for all practical purposes, is dead.

I remember Ed Horgan once saying (i'm paraphrasing a lot here) that complicity is not the issue - but what are we doing and are we doing it well? To overcome complicity all we have to do is something - anything. To overcome this injustice we have to have a plan of action, a strategy with tactics and numbers to carry it out.

Its an odd moment in history - It is not difficult to explain that the war is wrong, that the US should leave, that International Law should have some teeth and so on. But 'the movement' (everywhere is seems, not just Ireland) seems at a loss of what to do next.

Today's elections in the UK will probably result in many more years of Blair - this is not so much a failure of their electoral system but the lack of imagination and organisation of the UK anti-war movement. Same can be said of the US anti-war movement and the election of George W.

Not sure where I'm going with this rant, so I'll end it here.

by Ciaron - DCW/PSP5(parsonalcapacity) Sat May 07, 2005 11:24

...Not much.

Significant observation by Red Jade and others in relation to self-censorship in Ireland. Not one mention of "Route Irish", hardly a mention of other Irish war participation issues eg. 1000 mercanieries from this island reaping/operating in Iraq (600 former RUC/400 former prison offices from the north).

This self cencorship is not just limited to the media in modern Ireland.....my experiences street speaking at Temple Bar and vigiling at the GPO (mondays 4pm-6pm)....it is mostly non-free state Irish (norhterners,spanish, french, basque, english, arab) who engage you in political debate.

Why is this so? A few offline speculations have been....
*Irish disapora (eng/scotland, usa, oz) and irish of the north have been under racist siege for a recent part of their hstory and don't seem so housebroken....
*and if free state irish could largely ignore a war happening only 90 miles to their north over 20 years. Why are you surprised when they can easily ignore 30,000 U.S. soldiers passing through their country on the way to invade, rape, plunder & pillage in Iraq?

Meanwhile what's been happening....
The U.S. military have admitted they have been lying to Pat Tillman's parents for the past year on how they killed him, but the Pentagon still insists that they are not lying to the Italian people on how they killed Nicola Calipari, foreign operational chief of Italy's military intelligence services.

Tillman had given up a lucrative pro-football career (Arizona Cardinals/NFL) post Sept.11 to join the elite Army Rangers. he was killed by fellow Rangers in the hills of Afghanistan in an act "of gross negligence". Tillman's mother Mary stated "I'm disgusted by things that have happened with the Pentagon since my son's death. I don't trust them one bit"

And the Italians don't seem to swallow the latest lies told by the Pentagon about the U.S. military shooting at a checkpoint (in Iraq) of Agent Nicola Calipari who was returning with a released italian hostage they U.S. military weren't too keen on letting get home alive.

Italy's Reform Minister, Roberto Calderoli, "It is clear that in the Calipari affair there are two different versions of events and it is obvious that one of them is totally unfounded....the American version is clearly a lie!"

"Instead of admitting it objective responsibility for the death ofour agent in Baghdad..and offering an apology...the US has closed itself off in a hard shell ofself-acquittal" wrote a columnst in the right-of-centre daily Corriere della Serra.

So if this how the U.S. military lies when it kills its icons and friends, imagine what whopper sthey are telling when the come to the killing of the iinnocent and their enemies.

Other responses above seem to be from the "freedom is slavery" true believers who will believe whatever lies are being served up and also those who saw no rasons for apologising for the My Lai massacre and were out raged that Lt. Calley dod all of a month in the brig for putting over hundred Vietnames civilians ina ditch and being machine gunned......"they're dead now".

Is oemone can read the article and attached and tackle it, raise issues etc. I would be appreciative.

by Terry Sat May 07, 2005 15:28

I would suggest the anti-war movement would have more participation if people had something to participate in, that is, if some form of properly organised national network existed which was capable of organising the publicity, meetings and protests that one could participate in. It doesn't.
Furthermore such a network would have to be outside the left, which has a well known track record of policing Shannon for the state. To create such is a tall order.
To be successful such a network would have to have an effective strategy. A major barrier to participation is the issue of efficency. Dismissal of what has gone on before isn't conducive to a sense of efficency.
Perhaps something will come out of this:
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69620
If not, if it is still born like Anti-War Ireland, we will be having the exact same discussion in one years time, as we were having one year ago. Only with less people, as more and more drop out from despair.
Unfortunatly prior experience leads me to conclude that most anti-war activists in Ireland do not want to be organised in any efficent or sensible way, preferring "autonomy", the sort of "autonomy" which as we have seen managed to build a very successful and pro-active movement here in the last year since the Bush visit .
If we don't organise to set our agenda we will be left with following the agenda of the media.

by carrig Sat May 07, 2005 23:20

nicolo i understand your lack of the rules of war. (neutrality really sucks)
If a soldier fears he is in mortal danger, even if the danger is a wounded combatant, he/she has every right to shoot that person.

by Ciaron - DCW/PSP5 Sun May 08, 2005 22:48 At Large 087 918 4552

See link below for report on U.S. soldiers, marines & a sailor killed over the weekend in Iraq. The war goes on....
.
Appreciated feedback from Terry, who has also raised issues of arrest solidarity before and did a lot of work on that score for those arrested in 2003 against the war.

It's obvious things are getting worse. The neo-cons are emboldened by the re-election of Bush, the overkill of US violence enhances the support for military resistance of the Iraqis who see U.S. client state being imposed.(see the fine article by Paul Rogers in this week's Village magazine")

The peace movement has pretty much disappeared in Ireland, where 90,000 U.S. troops have commuted through Shannon in the first 3 months of this year. There is enormous invisible opposition to continued in Irish involvement in this illegal (Annan) immoral (JP2) war but it is unseen and unspoken. .

Two suggestions that came out of the action workshop last Saturday were...

1. To encourage everyone in Ireland against this war to make that opposition visible by vigilling or picketing for one hour a week against the continued U.S. military use of Shannon Airport.
The Pit Stop Ploughshares vigil at the GPO every Monday 4pm-6pm, join them there or consider vigilling at the Aviation Authority, Top Oil, in your own town or on your own campus between 4-6pm Mondays (so we can get a simultaneous vibe going) or an hour a week at another time etc

2 Return to Shannon. A peace camp in the summer is being considered.

The meeting was well attended and well facilitated. 1/3 of us had experiences of working together since the mobilisation for the invasion of Iraq. There was a good crew of younger fresh energy.

A lot of references were made to the Trident Ploughshares campaign of nonviolent resistance at Faslane, Scotland. What has to be acknowledged (that echoes Terry's post) is that this campaign is organised in affinity groups around the principles of nonviolence and direct democracy...worth looking at in terms of a campaign at Shannon.

Also worth a look is the fine cmpaign run by FEIC against Raytheon in Derry.

"Without community (affinity) there is no (sustained) resistance!" Phil Berrigan

by redjade Mon May 09, 2005 17:05

Democracy, What Democracy? Troops Out Now.
by Laura Flanders
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0508-30.htm
I've looked at tons of polls in the last few weeks and it's all but impossible to find one simple question asked: should US troops be withdrawn from Iraq now (or within the year?) Pollsters seem to ask everything but that. One WSJ/NBC poll quoted by the Institute for Policy Studies this March said that 59 percent of the public believes the United States should pull its troops out of Iraq within 12 months. Just a week ago, a Gallup poll revealed that given the chance to talk to President George W. Bush about any topic, Americans said their first choice would be the war in Iraq. About three-quarters of those who said Iraq said they would tell the president to end it and bring American troops home.

http://www.airamericaradio.com/weblogs/lauraflanders/