Fighting racism from the bottom up

by jeff Mon Mar 21, 2005 13:22

As in black people! Ok, I apologise for my barbed wit. However, there are some people who you will not change. The only thing to do is make them look stupid.

Bring along an ethnic friend who is clever. If you are in college, you can meet one. Many are medical students. Bring one ethno-European and one native ethno. Let them be themselves.

If your friend then says something like ' Urghh, well dere alrite but de rest of dem, ' etc, then give up. When we are young, we often make friends with creatures we think are smart but turn out to be dross. I had one 'friend' , an ignorant tyke from Cork whose job it was to be a courier. He did not like the pro Palestinian protestors outside the Israeli embassy ( that time the IDF were shelling , shooting, crushing civilians in Jerico). My 'friend' thought, like, the porotestors were 'stupid' because they looked stupid and, besides, they were not even Palestinians, so whats the point. I told him never to give money to Trocaire, because, like, he's not Ethiopian.

He had no further arguments, cos, like, whazza de point? This is the same guy who befriended another courier called 'Crazy'. Crazy later robbed from him, but,like, my 'friend' forgave him,like, cos Crazy is feked up,like.

The moral of the story; If you really, really, feel your friend can be brought round, then try meeting and talking with another ( ethnic) friend. Otherwise, forget about this stupid individual. Some people, believe it or not, enjoy having nastiness in them. Others are just dumb. For the latter category, cklassical music is just a loadda oul' noise fer posh people, books are pronounced ' boo-ahkk', and they'd prefer a new motor way over an historical site, cos 'daz all just oul' shite from de past.


Hopefully she'll have an accident but then will be fixed up by some handsome young devil of a doctor from Pakistan. ( roll oriental music.)

by jeff Mon Mar 21, 2005 13:39

Have those yokels you call friends actually ever been to a university? I am in a university, and I was just looking at some girls and I realised ' Oh, shit, yeah, they're Indian'. Across the way there, I see a black person.Like, wow, I never realsed he was black until I read your piece and realised that other people probably realise his blackness but in a much more sinister way than , uhm, the few normal people left in this country. ( Because, the truth is, assholism is a phenomenon increasing day by day.)

It is one thing to be against open immigration for the sole reason of numbers. However, your friends just sound like assholes. Remind them what it was like to be a fucking Mick in England in the 70s. Were all Irish people bombers?

I think, though, you have used up all these arguments. Ditch your mates, and be your self. Stupid people are scum, and I hate. If they are racist, well, then, I am stupicist!

I see stupid people all the time. When I get really frustrated, I imagine their face pockmarked with disease. Then I feel better.

Just like that dickhead bouncer outside The Quays Bar, Galway. I was to meet some Tanbzanian mates that had gone there. They were circus acrobats and had gone thee with some white girls ftom their circus.The lug ignored the girls and stopped these boys 'fer being in tracksuits.'

I told one of the lads to ask if he can get a message to them, but the bouncer was all foam at the mouth. So I went to talk, and the bouncer shouted at the sky ' They can use their mobiles'. When I got it through his skull that people won't hear the mobiles, because the pub was packed, he said I could go in. When I explained that one of my friends should go because I did not know the women, the bouncer roared agressivly at my friend ' You have two minutes!D'ya hear?Two minutes!'. He even held up his index fingure like he was lecturing him.

My friend went in and I stood there looking at this scumbag in disbelief. He looked away from me and muttered something about rules and track suits.

Hopefully he now has a terminal illness.

by Zeppo Mon Mar 21, 2005 13:59 zeppo.marx at gmail dot com

First of all Shoegirl, you are not alone. What you've written could easily have applied to any number of social situations I have found myself in over the past few years. All have involved close friends making the most outrageous and offensive statements. Like you, the most inveterate of these is the person I would have been closest to. I've been (reluctantly) forced to more or less cut them out of my life for the moment.

Discovering that friends whom you've known for years harbour such hateful opinions is profoundly depressing. It is difficult to counter such opinions rationally. By definition, racism is resistant to logic.

However, much of the racism disseminated by people is not so virulent. It is a parrotting of received media and anecdotal evidence. You cite the Listowel story. Other more every day examples include the "these N*****s can get a house when my sister is on a waiting list." This stems from people's belief that while they are being shafted, someone less deserving is getting something that should be theirs by right. Unfortunately, fighting these mistaken preconceptions with the actual truth allows the usual opportunity for the racists in your midst to jump in with their supposed personal experiences. You end up being labelled PC, or of not knowing what you're talking about.

There are however a number of tactics I have found semi successful.

1) Shame. Shout them down. Shame them. Many of these people might share your opinions in other areas. On the Iraq War, on the health service, on privatisation etc. Accuse them of allying themselves with their own enemies. This tactic swayed at least one of my friends into voting "No" in McDowell's referendum last year.

2) Throw in the odd fact, alongside a polemic. My favourite is to suggest that racists should be encouraged to wear a little badge to make them recognisable. I proudly wore my Don't Attack Iraq one, and Black And White Unite And Fight. (I'm not a big fan of badges per see, but never mind.) Don't THEY have the courage of THEIR convictions? Then if they are waiting for a bus, the driver will know that they would rather wait for a bus driven by a white person. If they go into their local Centra they won't have to be served by an Asian student. If they have an accident they can wait to be treated by a white nurse or doctor. And if they die, sure at least they stuck to their principles to the end. You get the picture. Then throw in the fact that in Britain for example immigration contributes in excess of £4 billion to the exchequer in direct and indirect taxation. A similar proportion undoubtedly operates here.

Immigration into Ireland, albeit small, began in the mid nineties. This does not make people racists. It was understandably strange and disorienting for many, but no attempt was made to explain that a prosperous country attracts immigration, that most people wanted to work and contribute etc. This does not make them racists. What made them racist is the fact that the vacuum was filled by the rantings and ravings of the right wing press and opportunists politicians, stigmatising people as scroungers and freeloaders.

The only bright hope is that for many of the generation coming up these opinions will seem ridiculous and offensive. Because they are being educated with and playing with immigrant children. Witness the Palmerstown school children protesting the deportation of one of their fellow students to Nigeria.

Despite, a certain levity at times, our previous posters are quite correct in one respect. There are certain people who are not worth bothering with as they won't change. I've also found people who I disagree with on most everything else, who get violently angry at the first hint of racism, or the use of derogatory names. It's really up to you to decide how much effort it will take to change these people's minds and compare that with the cost to your sanity.

"We are many. They are few."

by Gilbert Jeannon Mon Mar 21, 2005 14:17

As there is only two people having this conversation, it shows how little, people really want to stop the 20th century disease which made us all Black.

I picked up a newspaper today and saw that discrimination impacts on all non-whites, who just happen to be living in Europe. The Race manifesto for the brothers and sisters living in the UK is a good start as everyone of us non-whites wears our politics on our skins..does not matter what we actually think or believe...!

In my opinion..I am prejudiced but I can never be a racist because I am Black / European living in Ireland.

I was onced asked by academics, how do you stop racism..my simple answer was to say..join a Trade Union. I could of said join a political party, a soccer club a G.A.A club and prove your self.

If you've xenophobic or racist friends, tell them to go and form their own "pure" society, don't buy anything non-Irish, don't mix with anyone non-European and go for their pure white vision alone, be original , make and listen to their own music, eat and grow their own food, look after your own sick, don't use our taxes, don't try to look like us, don't have us working for you and don't include us in your history ?

I'm going on a bit..but the answer is simple people, unity is strength, racism divides us as workers.



I

by Redbhoy Mon Mar 21, 2005 14:59

( Because, the truth is, assholism is a phenomenon increasing day by day.)#


Well said!

by * Mon Mar 21, 2005 15:57

This is where the party ends
I can't stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend

It was the loveliest party that I've ever attended
If anything was broken I'm sure it could be mended
My head can't tolerate this bobbing and pretending
Listen to some bullet-head and the madness that he's saying

This is where the party ends
I'll just sit here wondering how you
Can stand by your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
You and your racist friend

This is where the party ends
I can't stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend

Out from the kitchen to the bedroom to the hallway
Your friend apologizes, he could see it my way
He let the contents of the bottle do the thinking
Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding

This is where the party ends
I can't stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend

by Con Carroll - Class-war Mon Mar 21, 2005 16:08

When was the last time that we have heard of people who were drugged by injection to silence them? Russia when people were protesting against deaths of their loved ondes during an inquiry.
This is what happened to people facing deportation at Dublin airport last week when people were protesting against their deportations they were drugged by injections by the cops.
Michael Mc Dowell lectures about respect and dignity of people. Where was the dignity and respect of the state towards people who are asylum seekers?
Where was the respectable well paid voices of NCCRI and SARI nowhere.
It was friends of people who where been deported who met with Residents against Racism who told them what was going on.
It is not sexy to stand with people who are asylum seekers, people who tell us that they are anti-racist need to start shouting and joining in the protests against Mc Dowell and the right wing filth in this country this week

by jeff Mon Mar 21, 2005 16:51

...and there you are at home in the evenings thinking about them and you start to get mad; just imagine them with terminal illnesses, it is a splendid method of meditation and relaxation...

Shame about that young fella dumped in a Nigerian slum in his frigging school uniform, with no money. Cancer on the shitbag responsible for such inherent irresponsibility.

Assholism.

by shoegirl Mon Mar 21, 2005 17:05 shoegirl at eircom dot net

I quite agree over the Nigerians. I do a lot of business with Lagos, and really it is a country in a terrible state. Besides they have taken thousands of times the number of displaced people from Liberia, Ivory Coast and neighbouring countries. In a country sadly ruled by such a corrupt government it puts us to shame with our hypocrisy over a very tiny number by international standards.

You know I actually feel ashamed of my friends, and even more ashamed of myself for associating with people like them. Its nice to read that at least one or two others have been stuck in the position of being outnumbered in a social group and made to feel that their opinion is simply an opinion and not a conviction. How dismissive. Its also about how you think of other people and that says more about you than it does about them.

That said I will fust happen to be coming home to Dublin for a week and will probably visit the protests at least once. I'm particularly disturbed about the 18 and 19 year olds being sent back because they are no longer in the state care. While they were in the care of the state it was their responsibility, in loco parentis, to make sure their asylum applications were properly lodged and fought. Maybe see some of you there. ;-)

by Paul Mon Mar 21, 2005 17:13 Fairview

I’m not sure I would be so quick to ‘drop’ these people. After all, they are your friends, and good friends can be hard to come by. It depends on how much they mean to you, but it is possible to separate your feelings about them as friends from your feelings about their racist views. I appreciate that views on race are pretty basic when most of us evaluate a person, but I would be reluctant to burn bridges and later regret it.

That doesn’t mean you should turn a blind eye to their prejudices. You should certainly challenge their views every chance you get. I certainly advocate never missing an opportunity to undermine their views or to show them how ridiculous these views are.

In challenging their views I would advise doing so in as calm a manner as possible. It can be unproductive to get drawn into a big argument time and again – these things have a tendency to get repetitive and go nowhere. It may be more effective to have a simple premise that you repeat again and again. The danger with trying to respond to each of their statements is that you will find yourself arguing the issue on their terms. Also, often as arguments become confrontational, they become a contest in which everything you say can draw out stronger and stronger statements from them in response.

I have studied cultural identity theory and studied the way racism works. In my understanding of the dynamics of racism, which you may argue with, people are not inherently racist. Everyone is capable of altering their understanding of things. The difficulty with terminating your friendships with these people is that these views of theirs may never be challenged. At least with you around there is some chance of them seeing sense. One of the things these people need to realise is that there is no link between race and the kind of behaviour they are complaining about. A non-national may indeed become involved in a crime – it does not mean that s/he committed the crime BECAUSE they are a non-national. In fact, when you break it down like this it shows how ludicrous these ideas are.

As you identify, these friends of yours –along with many, many other people in our society – have general assumptions about race and so forth which are given credence by our media. It can be incredibly difficult to challenge this. My personal reaction to this kind of thing is also anger. This assholism (which is a great word for it) is all around us, more and more it seems. These people ARE stupid and ignorant. But if we just dismiss them like that – tempting as it is – how are we supposed to convert them? If we’re going to effect social change on a wide scale then these kind of bigots have to be won over.

All that stuff I wrote above about remaining calm and staying friendly with them is all very ideal, but I know that you simply may not be able for their crap for much longer. Maybe they are just too extreme for you to remain on good terms. I’ve certainly fallen out with people on principle. I wouldn’t blame you for it. Fair play to you for having the courage to deal with it, because it’s so much easier just to let it go by. If more people refused to let this kind of prejudice go by unchallenged, I feel this country would be in much better shape.

by jeff Mon Mar 21, 2005 18:18

If your friends are that dumb, the above poster then has a point in not overtly dumping them. You can manipulate these people and use them for your own advantage. Thats what Hitler used to do with various people he'd meet along the way, and it worked for him!He became Chancelor! Of Germany! Wow.

by Paul Mon Mar 21, 2005 18:39 Fairview

When you see Irish people vomiting on Dame St. at 4 in the morning, nobody says "Oh, look at that - what typical young, Irish, Catholic, middle class behaviour", and yet when a Nigerian is involved in criminal activity it is supposedly typical Nigerian - or even 'African' or non-national - behaviour.

Of course most of the hearsay stuff about non-national activity is rubbish. But when the non-national community are involved in anti-social activity, even when it is true, it should not be allowed to be thought of as any justification for what is, and should be referred to as, racism.

by Zeppo Tue Mar 22, 2005 13:07 zeppo.marx at gmail dot com

Good point Paul from Fairview, and well made. Similar to the point I was trying to make, but far more rational.

And I agree with the implications of some of the posters. Our sense of outrage at having our principles offended is nothing compared to being an actual victim of racism.

I remember what it was like to travel in England in the late 80s and early 90s. The suspicion, sidelong glances and sometimes downright insults. And anti-Irish racism was in many ways a mild form of what many of our immigrants suffer today.

Get out and Protest. You'll feel better and you might even make an impact.

by Niamh with freckles Tue Mar 22, 2005 14:45

Apologies for this extra-long post, but the subject deserves it. Racism is a difficult phenomenon that can not be reduced to 'assholism'. A lot of people have objectionable views but if you simply 'shout them down', as one person suggested, you will not understand why the person holds those views and consequently you will not be able change their views. Racism exists in all societies and expecting Ireland to be any different is naive. I take a bus to the city every day which is crammed, literally, full of people. Over the past five years the amount of people of 'non-white' appearance on the bus has increased greatly. Unfortunately, this has been accompanied by many racist incidents, from the whispered comment, to pure frightening aggression. This is a very very serious problem and should not be underestimated. But I also witness genuine acts of kindness between white Irish people and ‘non-nationals’ and normal relations between people of all types. The danger is in thinking that people are inherently racist. This ultimately immobilises the fight against racism. For once I agree with John Waters, (IT, 21/03/05), instead of being morally indignant we need to actually take responsibility for our society. The fact is, nothing much was done at the start to prevent misinformation and hateful attitudes from forming, and the referendum, has in fact promoted these attitudes. We seem to have learned nothing from the experiences of our European neighbours. The powers that be did not help society in any way to deal with the transition to a more multicultural society. McDowell and others, such as the tabloid media, have in fact exacerbated the problem for their own purposes. If the top layers of society send out the wrong signals then don’t be surprised if sections of society picks up on them

But remember that there are a lot of people out there who are sickened by racism both in public life and in our communities and the more of us who speak out, the more racist attitudes become unacceptable. So when you hear racist opinions from your peers in conversations, listen to them and then present your arguments calmly and explain that you find their ideas (not them) unacceptable. Try and have the discussion again when nobody is drinking alcohol, don’t push people into taking a more extreme position. When it comes to racism in the public arena, we need to consistently challenge the system, be angry as hell but don’t stop there. Challenging racism from below means that we all have to support the campaign against racism, and that takes a real commitment. It means turning up to meetings, protests and showing politicians that we will not let them ‘play the race card’ for electoral gain. It means writing letters and challenging the mainstream media. It takes time for communities and movements to mobilise, but it is happening, you only need to look at Indymedia to see this.

by jeff Tue Mar 22, 2005 16:57

It is usually the sort of people who used to bully the goths in the school yard ( though there is an element that these days dress like goths and are racist thanks to that Norweigen black metal.) Generally though, there is no convincing someone not to be racist in my experience.

You try tell them 'Look I have friends who are this that the other'; and guess what, they find another race to bitch and moan about. Even if they have their sorry assed life saved by an ethnic nurse or doctor, they'll go ' Ok, I 'm not talking about that person, I'm on about this.'

Racists are frikking morons, most of the time there is no converting them. What is needed is to, (how should I put this?), catch, so to speak, those dangerously in the middle. Once you have a large number of those people, then the assholes will feel isolated and will shut up.

Racism is a dangerous, primeval instinct in us all. Was there not tests done some years back where subjects were shown photos of people of their own ethnic group, then it changed to photos of other ethnicities. The subjects brains, hooked up to a cat scan, showed a particular area of said brain lighting up on the scan every time a race other than their own came up.

My point; we all have the ape like tendencies that enable us to lose our tempers, possibly even kill. We also have tendencies that give us certain comforts when in our own respective ethnic group. This latter tendency, in many individuals, can go to far and result in pig headed, slack jawed yokel racism.

by Dave Wed Mar 23, 2005 02:59

In my experience most people who use racist language dont have any strong racist convictions -its just a knee-jerk reaction. People bitch about all sorts of things and especially when you're young its usually cool to be hard and have a don't-give-a-fuck attitude. So people will deliberately be offensive just to portray a certain image. its the same reason people smoke, or bragg about stuff.

I find though, that the same people when not in a crowd with their friends are usually decent enough, and are often more open to reason. They dont bear anyone harm, they just never think deeply about it.

Im sure of course this doesnt apply to every person who seems racist -but i think it accounts for alot of them, and especially younger people. We all do and say things just to be cool and fit in when we're young. And sometimes this means people acting cocky and ignorant.

by shoegirl Wed Mar 23, 2005 17:51

I have to say that of all the people with racist opinions I know (which I have to say is very few), not one attended university, or had a family member who attended university. One has gone to a College of Technology, but on one of the special courses designed for mature students to get a (certificate) 3rd level education. I'd a traditional university education myself in a university with a large community of non-EU and some EU students - not even counting Erasmus and US one year students. Likewise, the racist people all come from families where nobody went on to university - maybe my social circle is limited or something, but this is absolutely without exception.

Also on top of this none of them have travelled abroad. A lot of the really strong anti-racists I know have spent a few years in a multicultural environment abroad. And of those who don't a lot work in international companies with a lot of non-Irish workers, and a lot of these companies have solid diversity policies and programmes. The only few friends I have who are reasonably educated (although I find this a somewhat patronising term as life is often the best education) and well travelled who have even some racist tendencies, often only very slight - all belong to one group. You guessed it - white south African ex-pats! (Although I find they are very careful not to express bigoted opinions in company unless they are very sure of themselves, and a lot are not racist at all).

Imagine the boot was on the other foot though? Imagine the US authorities suddenly started a campaign of deportations in which the illegal Irish immigrant population made up the largest group of deportees?

Better still imagine this scenario. Instead of deporting vulnerable groups, the gardai start sending letters to known Irish racist bigots. They have to start signing on at Garda stations. They have to carry an id card at all times or they can be charged. Then they get a letter about their last appeal, but too late to actually turn up because it was posted too late for them. Imagine a garda arrives at their house in the middle of the night, gives them an all-too-short period to collect a few belongings, and they are spirited away to Dublin airport. They can't call their solicitor at 3am. Next thing they are flown off to the south pacific and dumped there.

Well I suppose at least they can now have their long wished for white supremacist irish state, far away from the requirements of the Geneva convention, and can wash their hands of the "problem" of displaced people.

by dunne Thu Mar 24, 2005 20:17

"Hopefully he now has a terminal illness"


so full of the milk of human kindness 'liberals' aren't you !

by scarlett Thu Mar 24, 2005 23:09

Racism is based on the ideology of white settled superiority it's all arond us we have not created it.We are guilty of being immune to it and of not tackling the real issues surrounding it.The myth of educated people being less racist or just a little racist is quite outrageousOut of curiousity can you name any high profile black writers scientists or explorers.Reckon the educated classes were too busy plundering and thieving from these foreigners.As for the present day we have a large number of well educated white irish still deciding what is better for our lesser brother and sister.As for your well travelled open minded friends how priviliged they are to have freedom of movement.Try tackling these issues with both the educated and uneducated and maybe even yourself not an easy one

by shoegirl Wed Mar 30, 2005 01:52

I'm not suggesting for a minute that all educated people are less racist than less educated people - however in Ireland I do notice a strong connection between racism and class, education and life experience. One of the things which I particularly notice is that generally those with extensive relationships with different ethnic groups are far less likely to be racist than those who don't. Now one of the reasons that this may be the case is education - hence my example of the fact that some universities have a strong tradition of international attendance. Its not the education that has reduced the likelihood of racism, but the experience of meeting people from different cultures in that environment. Now this is moving to second and first level education as asylum seekers familes integrate. This definitely helps no end - in fact its no irony that schoolkids played a vital role in the return of the young Nigerian fellow last week - much of the mythologies being propogated in Irelans these days are largely the result of an almost total lack of experience on a personal level of asylum seekers.

This is why the lack of factual information on the asylum process is such an issue. Without concrete evidence it is hard to trash the dreadful hearsay that people in Ireland now accept as fact (the old classics such as asylum seekers being given money for mobie phones and cars etc). I think it is going to be some years before the entire population really starts to get to know the people who have come here, ad for many, it may not happen fast enough. I looked at the departmnt of justices infomration the othre day and to be honest it was extreely unhelpful to the point of being propoganda for the ffectivenss of the civil service and not the asylum system at all.

At least the deportation issue is now raising 2 important things: 1) the cold hard reality of the personal experiences of asylum seekers who are nt granted asylum and 2) the fact that integration is now making people aware who previously were not aware of what was going on in the system.

I still think it is significant that every single person with strongly racist opinions that I know has a few comon traits. I am not suggesting for a minute that middle class, people with university education and travel experience are not racist, but education and life experiences seems to me to play a role in the attitudes that people develop towards people who are different or perceived to be different.

by Gilbert Jeannon - UNISON ( Region 13 ). Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:49

I feel that your arguement is a personal one and there is a genuine need to debate in all areas the impact of racists.

However the fact is that an immigrant with a degree is seen as the criminal, a native business person who runs off with the profits or dodges taxes is seen differently..hence the racist arguement which is universal..we pick the people who live here..and it helps if they are loyal..there is nothing as loyal as a first generation immigrant.

The only people whom I have depended on to destroy the disease of racism is the Irish working class.

There is a simple lesson to be learnt from history, whenever those in political power feel threatened they play the race card / sectarian card / class card / gender card and blind the people from the true cause of oppression.