"Lord I believe. Help my unbelief."

by Justin Morahan - Peace People (individual) Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:02

I welcome this discussion.

There are at least two strands of thought going through a very short posting - the brevity too is welcome.

One point that underlies the piece seems to be the necessity of belief. This belief is twofold - first belief in the related pain of others, particularly young people, and also a religious belief ("I believe Lord, help my unbelief").

I am at one with Seán Crudden on the importance of listening to, and believing, others (including the young) when they state that they suffer pain.
I am also in agreement that we should not believe the worst about anyone without verification.

But, I think we part company on the necessity to "believe" religious doctrines, - if that is what he implies. Take the phrase "believe as gospel". It almost implies (I think) the absolute truth of "gospel". We could ask "Which gospel?" What is it about "gospel" that should compel belief?

"To believe" is a strange verb.

In the Ireland of my youth it was associated with fear on a grand scale. Not to believe was a frightening thought. Reason was to be subjugated in favour of "belief". And the range of subjects that were to be believed was monstrous in extent and content. Doubt was out. If you were "tempted" to doubt (i.e. to think), the advice was to pray: "I believe, Lord, help my unbelief", - even if the prayer were itself a lie. This saved you from being a "heretic", "infidel", "apostate". It was a too easy way to postpone examining your set of "beliefs" for truth.

Why should it be de rigeur to believe in this sense at all? Why should ordinary humans not be free to think rather than believe? Why should a sense of fear or suspicion be still attached to non-belief?

As long as "non-believers" do their best to live decently without harming others why should they not get equal respect?

by ipse...phi Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:12

I have to congratulate you Séan.
I don't know yet (as a 30 something) which is worse, the fear of a kid playing a video game, or a 20 something on a bad trip, or a pensioner living on pittance.
The fear of not having someone to turn to. The fear of not having a community. The fear of facing death and having to as a consequence take account of one's life ought be as comfortable and comforted as possible.

by jimmy Mon Dec 20, 2004 13:12

"As long as "non-believers" do their best to live decently without harming others why should they not get equal respect?"

Unfortunately I believe that the "equality" principle will breakdown as religious fundamentalists reassert themselves. This time they will most likely use notions of equality and multiculturalism as the means to their end, forcing their way on others.

by padraig Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:14

Play in Birmingham got closed down by a religious mob.

by iosaf Tue Dec 21, 2004 19:26

the most powerful presbytarian in the world is Condolence Rice, she had an oil tanker named after her by Chevron Oil and will replace Colin Powell (who was too soft) in the next US administration as the face and voice of the USA.
Condolence Rice has intefered in a case facing the Indian courts, (indian india) [not american injuns].

She is very concerned that the CEO (an important rich person) and a USA CITIZEN god dammit, has been charged with selling on the internet an image posted there by a young man engaging in an act of felatio (which in índian culture is *indecent*) with his girlfriend.

Please note, the two young people were engaging in a *safe sex* *hetrosexual* act in our Western Culture, maybe because they had watched movies and were worried about all the moral deficiency which is causing AIDS.

The two students study at New Delhi Public School, which was set up under the Raj, by the British and thus is not public but very very private.

Various Western commentators have been clever enough to note that in Indian and most Asian culture anything more than a wet sari (also very safe sex) is *indecent*.

This has not stopped the American Culture industry, which Negri correctly identified as being one of the triple capitals of thier "empire" with geographical location in Hollywood pumping images of *western sex and fun* which might seem a good idea to share holders from PD dublin to Republican girly man California but just don't do it in leviticus style Turkey.

Now many of us, photocopied our bums on the college xerox machine. I didn't. But out there in circulation are most probably dog eared grainy representations of many an arse from the Oireachtas, Rté and the intellectually unchallenged church.

Where would we be if those xerox's came to public attention?
Quite. Better to leave them in the helvetian vaults.

Therefore, it is essential that the Irish Government move to end felatio and it's not too distant cousin cunilingus, by addressing the UN assembly, calling in the Pope, and mobilising our neighbours Mr blair and the Queen of Engurland.

Perhaps she'll mention it in her Xmas speech.

This will prove we are behind the most powerful presbytarian in the world, Miss Condolence Rice, and serious about education and peace and stuff. Then the 2nd most powerful presbytarian in the world, our own Ian Paisley, might stop boycotting the Irish government because to be honest it's hurting the economy... isn't it?

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/965793.cms
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=39812
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/10463433.htm?1c

by Francis - Christian Anarchist Mon Dec 27, 2004 21:00

The replies above seem to confuse belief( in a spiritual reality) with religion. It might be wise to ponder how a reasonably good set of principles(as outlined in the Gospels and Acts) was hijacked by an organised religion for the purpose of continuing the domination of the Roman Empire.

It is important, I think, to make the distinction.

All hierarchical systems, religious or otherwise are motivated by Ego. Since Ego is the opponent of Spirit these organisations cannot be spiritual entities.

I have been told that the Hebrew word S(a)t(a)n translates as Ego!

by soberasajudge Mon Dec 27, 2004 21:11

" "The O’Riordans stole that car," "The people around here are shite," "Dessie Hynes is not a bishop." One often encounters categorical statements like these from responsible and quite prominent people (who should know better). Such statements are often full of certitude and (alcoholic) gravity."

So there we have it then, any questioning of Dessie Hynes's ecclesiastical credentials is caused by people having too much drink.

by Peter M Mon Dec 27, 2004 23:57

I understand Hynes is with the Tridentine movement. What I would really like to know is whether he supports the 'Third Official Position', as many of that movement do. In which case he would be in league with some very dodgy characters. such as Justin Barrett.

by the organist Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:39

I know you like music. so you might be interested to know the Dutch master musician Ton Koopman is re- releasing this month some of his recordings of the Bach Cantatas.
(he recorded all of them in the mid to late 90s but all 22 volumes won't be available for a few years)

re-released Volume VIII
will contain 3 CDs including-
"Ich glaube, lieber Herr, hilf meinem Unglauben”
BWV 109
( I believe dear Lord, help my unbelieving)
http://www.antoinemarchand.nl/eng/indexeng.htm

by Sean Fri Jan 21, 2005 22:22

Thanks for the tip, Organist.

by . Fri Jan 21, 2005 22:25

da

organist = iosaf

fyi