First they came after the communities - then they came for the workers

by Watcher Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:39

Whatever about tax evading criminals like Boyd Barrett senior, this legal criminality of tax avoidance must be dealt with. To get this tax relief Quinn has to make his paintings available for public viewing for a certain number of days each year. How about a mass visit to see Quinn seniors paintings?

by Jimbo Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:33

Two Wrongs don't make a right!
But then who takes the SWP seriously?

by Watcher Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:29

"But then sure when the family of one Labour councillor is getting over €4 million tax relief for their art acquistions - what could that party possibly know about fairness and equity."

Dont forget that the father of SWP leader RBB is a tax dodger and was named in the Ansbacher report. If Oisin Quinn is responsible for his fathers (unfortunately legal) tax avoidance then by the same token RBB is responsible for his fathers criminal tax evasion.

by Jimbo Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:22

"Why should any Councillor elected by people in their area set that to one side and do the bidding of a couple of people who are members of organisations which either do not contest elections, or who are unsuccessful if they do?"

Of course all of what you are saying would be fair enough if it wasn't the case that Labour ran in the locals on a ticket of making the bin charges fair and equitable. I hardly think that over a 100% increase for the average wage earner with a large family is anywhere near fair and equitable. But then sure when the family of one Labour councillor is getting over €4 million tax relief for their art acquistions - what could that party possibly know about fairness and equity.

by Curious Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:59

How many votes did Rosa get in the last elections? Does she think that she can win over working class people by talking in slogans?

by observer Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:53

The arrogance of some of those purporting to speak on behalf of the ABTC is astounding. You would almost get the impression that SF and the LP are somehow accountable to self-appointed individuals who represent nobody. Why should any Councillor elected by people in their area set that to one side and do the bidding of a couple of people who are members of organisations which either do not contest elections, or who are unsuccessful if they do?

As for SF coming around. That is pure lies. SF have always voted against service charges in Dublin.

by Libby Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:59

But at no stage have I personally attacked Real Cynic. I am well aware of the need to welcome ANYBODY who is against the bin charges into the campaign. If Independent thinks that the campaign can do this without at the same time attacking the smugness and arrogance of the Labour Party, well then I am all ears. What I have riled against is the tendency of the Labour Movement (be it the Party or the higher echelons of the Trade Union Movement) to attack all left criticism as being trot insignificance.
This is what Real Cynic has done time after time on the couple of threads they have been engaged in. It just won't do.

by Independent Tue Nov 30, 2004 19:45

Surely it should be enough that people are involved in a campaign that is based around a single issue. They should not have to account for anything else. Even with Troskyists like the SWP and the SP there are many points of difference and the same is true of the WSM and Organise. Theres plenty that these people wont agree upon but they are prepared to work with each other around this issue.

The whole point of a single issue campaign is that it can unite people of incredibly varying views on other topics. The SP, WSM, Organise and ISN would not share the SWP position on Islam and the Hijab, but that doesnt stop them from working with the SWP on other issues.

If a few Labourites are prepared to get involved then thet should be welcomed not hounded. I dont believe that Rosa or Libby mean to be "sectarian" I just think they are misunderstanding what a Single Issue Campaign is about. Their criticism of Labour as a whole is correct but it should not be directed in this way at Labourites who are prepared to be active against the bin charges.

by Real Cynic Tue Nov 30, 2004 19:21

It gets down to whether or not you want LP members in the ABTC. I reckon you dont. I dont have to answer to you or anyone else about my membership of the LP.

by Libby Tue Nov 30, 2004 18:40

"You dont want SF involved in the ABTC and you want to drive LP members out. "

Where does Rosa say they want SF out. They state that SF has come around. From what I can make out Rosa does want to drive LP members out but not of the campaign. Out of the Labour Party. Why are you in it? Surely you can see that it lacks even an ounce of real socialism. Social Responsiblity does not equal socialism it only equals a cop out.

by Real Cynic Tue Nov 30, 2004 18:25

You have shown yourself to be a dyed in the wool sectarian. You dont want SF involved in the ABTC and you want to drive LP members out. You have no interest in building the campaign. Actually I reckon your sole purpose in posting your bile here is to divide the ABTC.

I have nothing further to say to you. You can rave away to yourself and your sectarian "comrades" to your hearts content.

by Rosa Tue Nov 30, 2004 18:18

The fact is that the all the groups you mentioned, bar the Shinners, are clearly and consistently opposed to the bin tax. How they work in the campaign and the tactics they use are another question. The Shinner tried to have it both ways, what with Sligo etc, but seemed to have learnt their lesson: ie despite the lack of activism by their members in local campaigns bar a few areas, they have opposed service charges at a council level.

The Labour Party has consistently SUPPORTED the bin tax at all levels. That is why you face the ire of bin tax activists. You can't have it both ways: if you are a member you are at least partly responsible for this because you are in a party that has shown again and again that far from defending workers it rows in with the right wing to attack them. So theres no point in moaning about the fact you get a hammering, theres a simple solution, leave the fecking mess behind.

As for Mick O Reilly, if you were really involved in the Anti Bin Tax Campaign, you would know that Micks role has been to speak out publicaly as a leading trade unionist against the Bin Tax. He has played no organisational role, except to facilitate one meeting last year to encourage unity in the Dublin campaign. This is no criticism of Mick, the role he has limited himself to is a useful one. So there's no question of him wiping the floor with anyone, since he's never at the activists meetings.

And before you let your trotsky paranoia loose, no I don't advocate that you join any of Lenin cults. You'd be back out faster than I could say democratic Centralism. Yes RC, there is life outside of organisations, you can make a real and lasting contribution as an independent activist, go on try it you'd be surprised! In your heart of hearts you know that you will end up fighting a lonely and losing battle against the Rabbittes Post-Stalinoids, so don't waste those years or you might turn into a ....real cynic.

by Real Cynic Tue Nov 30, 2004 17:35

Originally you were denying any Labour Party members were in the ABTC. If you really think theres only 2 then why refer to less than a dozen? Strange logic on your part. I hope I am there when Mick wipes the floor with you fools.

Neither Mick nor myself support the Labour Party hierarchy. Why are you scared of the idea of ordinary LP members being in the ABTC, why does it make you feel threatened? Would you be happier if we left? Why not have a loyalty test for ABTC members, anyone who wasnt pure enough for you could be thrown out. That way you would be able to get rid of the vast majority of independent activists who are not Trots or Anarchists or WCA or ISN. Actually if you worded it cleverly enough I am sure you would also be able to exclude SF.

by ABTC Tue Nov 30, 2004 17:26

There may be literally less than a dozen suddenly becomes a dozen.
We have only had two confirmed.
Your maths is worse than your political affiliations.

"He is pretty good at dealing with people whose only purpose is to divide and weaken campaigns."

Indeed he is. He is well used to the Labour Movement higher echelons dividing and weakening campaigns.

by Real Cynic Tue Nov 30, 2004 17:21

You will find the remark here
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=67601&condense_comments=false#comment93928

I mentioned it to Mick and he said he hoped you would raise it the next time he was at an ABTC meeting. He is pretty good at dealing with people whose only purpose is to divide and weaken campaigns.

by ABTA Tue Nov 30, 2004 17:14

"Actually one of your colleagues mentioned up to 12 LP members being active!"

Out of interest where was this mentioned?
Cos I can't find it.

"Is enough. I'm bringing this crap to the attention of Mick O'Reilly. "

What kind of a response did you get from Mick then?

by Real Cynic Tue Nov 30, 2004 16:56

Go back to the thread. I never claimed other than that I was involved as an individual. The same goes for comments about the other LP members. Actually one of your colleagues mentioned up to 12 LP members being active!

But none of this matters. All you are interested in doing is scoring sectarian points. You would be a lot happier if no LP (or SF) members were involved in the ABTC. Then you could all be so pure together.

I am bemused by your reference to Begg. When did I say I supported him?

by Rosa Tue Nov 30, 2004 16:50

Oh dear what a mistake I've made. The Labour Party are massively involved in the Anti Bin Tax campaign, cos in the whole country we can verify (maybe) that two un-named LP members are active.

Thats not proof of involvement by the party and you know it RC. Labour Party cllrs all over the country have voted through estimates including service charges, Labours leader said during the height of last years bin tax crisis that he favoured it, Labour union supremo Beggs attacked the campaign while its activists were in jail etc etc. Tiny groups such as the WCA, WSM and ISN have done more to defend working class communities on this issue than Labour with all its resources.

You just can't wriggle out of this one RC, even many of your fellow 'lefts' in the LP
openly argue for and support the Tax.

by Real Cynic Tue Nov 30, 2004 16:05

Go back to the old thread and you will see its been confirmed that LP members are involved in local campaigns. Or maybe Pat C and the WCA member cited are in league with me and are making it up. I think all of the Labour Councillors should have voted against the estimates. I wont be leaving, I will carry on to fight for my views. I have made my position, politics and Party membership clear. I still do not know what group, party or whatever you are in.

by Rosa Tue Nov 30, 2004 15:55

Any word on all those invisible Labour Party members who are active in the Anti Bin Tax campaign? Are they going to resign from the campaign in shame cos their party voted en masse for the Bin Tax last night, bar Eric 'Looking over my shoulder in fear of Joan Collins' Byrne.

Eh, whats that you said Real Cynic, they can't resign cos they dont exist?

by Real Cynic Tue Nov 30, 2004 14:26

Nope. Anyway the NEC will have the final say on it.

by Libby Tue Nov 30, 2004 14:20

Your first response ('Hey Libby') was an anti-trot diatribe.

I agree as a Left Libertarian that delegates/officials should be open to recall but do you think that one man namely Pat Rabbitte should be responsible to do what he likes in the name of the Labour Party?

by Real Cynic Tue Nov 30, 2004 14:07

I didnt say you were a trot, I included Libertarians etc. But do clarify, do you believe that unelected TU and Party Officials should have jobs for life?

You dragged me into this thread, dont be upset because I ask you awkward questions in return.

by Libby Tue Nov 30, 2004 14:02

Not being a member of a trot organisation (past or present) I don't see what the past of those groups has to do with me. Once again, you make the false assumption that the only people who are critical of the LP are trots.
Grow up - working class communities are not in the least bothered by the minutiae of your anti-trot rants.
Rabbitte is out of control. This man's soul purpose now is to show Fine Gael what a good little boy he is.

by Real Cynic Tue Nov 30, 2004 13:59

I think you will find that all trots, Libertarians etc would argue that fulltime officials of parties, unions, campaigns or other activist organisations should be elected, be paid no more than the Average Industrial Wage and should be subject to immediate recall.

Therefore I am mystified as to why they think that unelected LP officials who are paid far in excess of the AIW should be entitled to jobs for life.

by mr aznar Tue Nov 30, 2004 13:29

and so is my friend Mr Bush.
you should rewrite that-
"no-one on the leftist conspiracy of marxist, anarchist, liberal, abortionist, judeo-masonic, enemies of christian civilisation, red, terrorist, condom using, gay marrying, drug peddling, topless sunbathing, basque-catalan-irish politics wing has a job for life"

History will prove me right.

by observer Tue Nov 30, 2004 13:12

I note that Laverty once worked for the Gorey newspaper. Is he from Wexford ? If so, would he then be close to Howlin who I note has gone on a mini offensive against the Rabbit on the issue of electoral strategy.

by Real Cynic Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:48

The Far Left are great at letting people go without even redundancy payments. At leat these people wont be thrown out without a penny. The SP shafted Dermot Connolly after 25 years as a fulltimer, no redundancy, no pension . Just heres the door!

The same happened to Emmet Farrel, he was thrown out by the SP without a penny, no pension and replaced as a fulltimer by a lower paid 18 year old. Dont forget John Throne he was also cut off by the CWI without a penny. This was when he was ill in the US in hospital. Maybe they hoped he would die. But John Throne survived and came back to haunt them!

The SWP also have a long history of sacking fulltimers with no compensation.

This is a LP matter. Maybe the people concerned are not the best for the jobs in question. No one is guaranteed a job for life in politics. But if they go, they will get redundancy payments and their pension plan payments are up to date..

by Libby Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:08

Anything to say about this?
(BTW - good name you chose, you'd have to be to, to put up with all this)