Economist 'survey' a pile of crap

by Lone gunman Thu Nov 18, 2004 22:36

here on Indymedia,but this survey is definately the biggest load of crap ever published.I wonder somtimes are these surveys"paid" for to keep the sheeple enthralled into beliving that the good times are still rolling.amazing too that this came out when it is getting close to the biggest money spin season time of the year as well ,Christmas.

by Voice of Reason Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:11

Its not always good news though. The 80s article "Poorest of the Rich" pondered why everything was going wrong for Ireland economically.

In my experience, most "surveys" announced by business to the media are just a means of generated publicity for the business. You never see any of the research that went into them.

by Michael Hennigan - Finfacts.com Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:20

I agree with Paul Kinsella. My guess is that the survey on Ireland is the opinion of one person - the Economist Intelligence Unit's one Irish representative.

The results for Ireland reflects the quality of life that a well-off person would enjoy with low-taxes and an income which can buy services without having to worry about the quality or value.

To imply that our current public services in particular health, transport and services for the elderly are better than the Nordic countries, is simply ridiculous.

There have been improvements but a majority of people earn less than €30,000 after a decade of the Celtic Tiger- 60% of PAYE earners compared with 52% of the self-employed.

by o Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:59

No-one suggested that our health service is superior to that of most other countries-in actual fact it was below the Western average in the Economist report (and it wasn't a SURVEY, it was a REPORT) but this was compensated for by our strong performance in other areas, such as average wealth (and no, that didn't take account of wealth inequality), crime rates (I think), family breakdown, social cohesiveness, climate and a few other factors.
If you actually want to read the report before making an intelligent critique of it, that would be much appreciated.

by John Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:31

None of you understand this report except for 'o'. Why don't you read the thing before shouting your mouths off? Its not a survey where someone went around interviewing people. Its where professional statisticians from a respected organisation, the Economist Intelligence Unit, gethered together masses of statistics from 111 countries under various headings, such as real incomes, poverty levels, unemployment, crime rates, life expectancy, migration, and a host of others. They calculated scores under each heading and then averaged them out to give an overall index for quality of life. Ireland ended up with the highest score, 8333. Switzerland came second with 8068 and Norway came third with 8053. The USA came thirteenth with 7615. The UK came twenty-ninth. Why don't you read it before sounding off? The result makes perfect sense to me. Ireland is now one of the richest countries in the world, but unlike other rich countries it has a very low crime rate. It also has the second lowest unemployment rate in the OECD. Real income levels, crime rates and unemployment rates are certainly key elements in assessing a country's quality of life and Ireland is near the best in the OECD for each of these. In those few remaining areas where Ireland is still below average we are fast catching up. For example, life expectancy in Ireland is still below average for developed countries. However, between 1996 and 2002 Ireland recorded the third largest increase in life expectancy in the OECD, so we are now very vey close to the OECD average and ahead of both Denmark and the USA. I understand why you are all devastated at this report. Years of trying to convince people that the economic policies of the FF/PD Government have led to Ireland being hell on earth. Now this report comes out. All your efforts down the drain. My deepest sympathy to you. I don't expect we'll be hearing too much from you from now on.

by John Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:41

And another thing. It does mention Canada. If you'd read it, you'd know. Canada came fourteenth with a score of 7599. Makes sense to me. Canada has higher unemployment than Ireland. And Canada has a much higher crime rate than Ireland. And much higher homelessness. Maybe you don't consider these to important in assessing a country's quality of life. Anyway, why your obsession with Canada? Is it a socialist country? Was there a revolution there recently? I must have missed it in the news.

by Michael Hennigan Fri Nov 19, 2004 14:20

John wrote: 'Why don't you read the thing before shouting your mouths off? Its not a survey where someone went around interviewing people. Its where professional statisticians from a respected organisation, the Economist Intelligence Unit, gethered together masses of statistics from 111 countries under various headings, such as real incomes, poverty levels, unemployment, crime rates, life expectancy, migration, and a host of others. '

I would say to him, why doesn't he get off his high horse?

We poor ignorant people don't understand!!

No subjective issues for these 'professional statisticians' to consider other than 'masses of statistics' ?

The Economist said: "Ireland wins because it successfully combines the most desirable elements of the new, such as low unemployment and political liberties, with the preservation of certain cosy elements of the old, such as stable family and community life."

In contrast with the arrogance of this John, the Economist itself admits that measuring quality of life is not a straightforward thing to do, and that its findings will have their critics - "except, of course, in Ireland".

The EIU's Irish rep said: "The key to life satisfaction is to have the best of both worlds, the good of the modern and the best of tradition. It is true that there is more family breakdown, that divorce is on the rise and civic involvement has declined. These woes certainly afflict Ireland but - and this is crucial - they do so less than in other developed countries."

The best of tradition - just for example because divorce (introduced in Ireland in recent times) is lower here, does not imply that people are happier.

The kernal of this issue is the statement that Ireland is the'best place' in the world to live. It is not that what exists in Ireland today is not a big improvement on the past.

"Where will be the best place to live in 2005?" is the title of the survey.

-so a relevant question for the 60% of PAYE workers going to earn less than €30,000 this year according to the Revenue, is are they better off here than anywhere else in the world? - public transport, health services etc.

In my opinion, the number 1 ranking may well be merited in say 10 years. However, when as recently as 2 weeks ago, a car driver from Dublin to two of the Republic's principal cities would have to travel through the village of Monasterevin- 40 miles from the capital- often part of a long tailback, and this after ten years of the Celtic Tiger, the champagne should remain on ice.

Just 3 weeks ago, ex-UK Foreign Secretary Robin Cook commented on the congestion at Dublin airport.

So as Michael O'Leary says- not much done and loads to do.

Presumably John doesn't have to wait on the trolley queue in the public hospitals?

The point is that a lot of people depend on public services because of their income levels. So quality of life for whom??

by MB Fri Nov 19, 2004 14:57

Interesting, because a UN survey last year found Canada to have the "highest standard of living" in the world, then followed by Japan in second, USA in third. the UK ranked in at 7 in believe. And apart from low unemployemnt, low-ish crime rates, let's face it, the public health and transporation system leaves a lot to be desired. i just moved back here from the UK, with a friend who's lived in Austria, Spain and the UK, and he couldn't believe how inefficient the administation is over here. you only just built motorways as well, so let's not get too ahead of ourselves with the 'best in the world' opinions. on a final note, canada is a fucking boring place as well...

by Paul Kinsella - CPSU An Post Branch Committee Fri Nov 19, 2004 15:07 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 085-1478100

You've basically covered all of what I would have said myself in reply to the false and inaccurate replies from 'John' and 'o'. A few things to add. In many parts of Canada you can leave your key in the front door (I kid you not) without fear of your house getting robbed unlike here in Ireland, and yes I can validate that as I have a number of relatives living in Canada. Also if you bothered to see Michael Moore's excellent documentary "Bowling for Columbine" you would have seen figures for gun crime in Canada versus the U.S. and Canada came out very favourably in a list of countries including the U.K. certainly far better than your beloved U.S. 'John' and 'o'. Canada has a free public health service paid for by compulsory health insurance for those who can afford it, and anybody who can't afford it also gets universal free health care unlike dear old Ireland. Plus there are no massive waiting lists for treatment again unlike good auld Ireland. I never said Canada was completely perfect if you had bothered to read my article properly. As Michael Hennigan so brilliantly put it I would be quite right to believe that neither you 'John' or 'o' have ever spent hours on a hospital trolley waiting for treatment or days on a trolley waiting for a bed. Oh no the likes of you probably have the "Plan E Options" plan from the VHI and anytime you get sick you just call the private Waverly Ambulance Service to bring you straight to the Blackrock Clinic or the Mater Private Hospital no doubt given an escort by your friends in the Garda. I wonder how many brown envelopes the likes of you and 'o' got from your Fianna Failure/Regressive Undemocrats friends to print your untruths? One final thing 'John' at least I always put an Email address that someone can contact me at unlike your 'web site' which is a fake because anytime you try to click on the link it says that this page is unavialable

by Ruri Fri Nov 19, 2004 15:08

These surveys have to be taken witha large pinch of salt, entirely subjective as they are. However, we are a moany bunch of fuckers here and we don't realise what a pleasant stable country this is to live in fpr the most part. It ain't perfect but it definitely isn't boring, don't know what MB's on about. I really don't think this survey warrants such discussion. Enjoy your weekend folks.

Foir misery, try living in Grenoble. A classic example of sterilised efficiency. Absolutely awful.

by Michael Hennigan Fri Nov 19, 2004 15:12

I would guess that the perspective of relative 'family life' is a northern European one.

There are many cultures irrespective of the standard of wealth where the practice of shunting elderly parents off to nursing homes for example, is not acceptable.

The 'family' in for example many Asian societies extends to relatives that urbanised Europeans would never care to contact.

by John Fri Nov 19, 2004 15:31

Michael, this is sour grapes. All the things you mentioned are factored into the overall result. In some Ireland was below average. In others it was above average. When all the various scores were averaged out, Ireland came tops. Obviously, people having to wait in a queue at Dublin airport is a minus factor when assessing the quality of life in Ireland. But, plus factors are the very low rate of unemployment, the low crime rate and the soaring living standards. I personally consider these last three to be more important than waiting in a queue at the airport, but I respect Robin Cook's opinion if he thinks the opposite. He's unlikely to be affected by unemployment, crime or difficulty in making ends meet, so I can see why he thinks the length of the queue at the airport is a more
important consideration. Nevertheless, I'm delighted you consider the building of proper roads and motoways to be a vital factor in our future quality of life. I fully concur. Alas, a lot of the threads on Indymedia are from people who want to bring road-building in Ireland to a virtual halt. In fact, I don't know of any major road scheme in recent years that hasn't been opposed and delayed by these groups. As for hospital queues and public transport, could the Left please stop talking as if all other countries were perfect in these respects and Ireland was the only one with such problems. If you don't believe me, go and access the Indymedia sites in other countries and you'll see people in those countries aren't exactly happy with things either. For example, there are 19,000 on the hospital waiting-list in Ireland. This is deplorable. But, in the UK there are over one million on the hospital waiting-list. Tony Blair
was on tv the other day boasting about how the Labour Government had got the
figure below one million for the first time in ages. That would correspond to about 70,000 on the waiting list in Ireland. And in Denmark, a country that the Left in Ireland seem to admire a lot, there are 85,000 on the hospital waiting-list, at least according to the BBC N. Ireland web site (although I'm unable to verify this particular one). And regarding public transport, you may have noticed that the Luas just opened, the DART is being extended, new rail lines to Kildare are being opened, and bus corridors are being extended. If you live in Howth, Gorey, Bray, Tallaght, you can now go into Dublin city centre as fast as in any city elsewhere. So, don't talk as if public transport was non-existent. Obviously, we need more of it, but that's exactly what's being done. Anyway, you say that in 10 years Ireland may well deserve the number one spot. So, obviously you think we are on the right lines.

by John Fri Nov 19, 2004 15:59

Mr Kinsella, I don't know why you are obsessed
with Canada. Are you being paid by the
Canadian embassy? Please take off your
rose-tinted spectacles with regard to Canada.
This is from a web site I found a link to on Indymedia Canada:

"Waiting lists are crippling Canada's health-
care system and frustrating patients and
doctors alike.."

"There are about 25,000 Calgarians waiting
for surgery or scans at the city's four major
hospitals. And the Calgary Health Region
estimates waiting times for surgery are
growing at an astronomical rate of 12 to 18
per cent every year. "

"Alberta Health's website says waiting times in
Calgary are as follows:

- 62 weeks for a hip replacement at Peter
Lougheed Centre;

- 62 weeks for general surgery at Rocky-
view General Hospital;

- 30 weeks for MRI scans at Foothills
Medical Centre;

- 54 weeks for knee replacement surgery
at Rockyview General Hospital;

- 11 weeks for cardiac surgery at Foothills
Medical Centre.

In addition:

the national statistics agency in Canada
web site gives the following figure for
unemployment in Canada:

7.7% in 2003

in Ireland its 4.4%

and futhermore:

the UN Seventh Crime Survey gives the
following for 1999:

crime rate in Canada: 8117 per 100,000
crime rate in Ireland: 2166 per 100,000

number of homicides in Canada: 482
number of homicides in Ireland: 38

thats twice the homicide rate in
Canada compared to Ireland when
adjusted for population

That's why the EIU Report put Ireland ahead
of Canada in its quality of life index. I hope it
will all be clear to you now.

by Paul Kinsella - CPSU An Post Branch Committee Fri Nov 19, 2004 16:36 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 085-1478100

The same troll is trying to delude us into thinking that a lot of people think like it. Just look at the similarity of the writing styles between 'Oisin', 'Ruri', 'John' and 'o'. Either that or its the Fianna Failures/Regressive Undemocrats last desperate throw of the dice.

by Michael Hennigan Fri Nov 19, 2004 17:28

Re: 'This is only a survey based on numbers and not on anyones feelings towards or against their country.'

Not true.

How can comparative 'community life' across the world be objectively measured?

The term 'community life' is used by the Economist

by iosaf Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:11

what's this got to do with the price of a cup of tea?
the reliabilty or scope of public transport?
the waiting lists in hospital?
the effectiveness of free education?
the acquisition power of your local library?
access to third level education?

If Ireland or Dublin could offer me a means of getting to work on time every day without having to freeze my balls off on waiting for a bus (coz I'd probably not work nor live near the "dart", "arrow" or "luas" [for foreign readers' info in ireland the "train" and the "tram" are called "dart", "arrow" and "luas" to make them seem more exotic] Oh but I'd use a cycle lane wouldn't I? Yep coz ireland is renowned for it's cycle lanes.
I'd come home. Hey if Ireland could offer me a meaningful job which gave me a salary where I could afford a cup of tea and enjoy a few days in the library ordering books I want to read, and ahem, the weather wasn't so shit and I could enjoy my cup of tea on a terrace without burning half the nation's reserve of butane to keep warm, I'd come home. Oh but now i got it-
- "it's the smoking ban"
Paris, Bcn, Amsterdam might have lots of reliable things I sort of think of as civilised, but ooooo it's so smokey in the bars.

by newsforthedeaf Sat Nov 20, 2004 17:03

Remember that other bit of
capitalistneoliberalBIGbiZtype PRO DA?

ie
For the third year in a row Ireland ranks as the most GlobaliZed country in the world - AT Kearney Globalization Index

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2493&page=7

Where will be the best place to live in 2005?
Renting a house in Ireland?
Well, you don't have too many options if you're unemployed, cos they don't do 'rent allowance' like they use to.

New globaliZed rules like 'Benefit Eligibility Criteria'
make it unbearable to be unemployed...hence the low unemployment figures as people are forced to take crap jobs or crap courses...


Kickback in Canada
http://www.ocap.ca

by Paul Kinsella - CPSU An Post Branch Committee Sat Nov 20, 2004 20:58 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 085-1478100

Glad to see that your nasty and abusive reply to me was removed. If you can't reply to a point of view in a rational and balanced way it just shows how desperate you are becoming. Back to the serious debate. The OECD recently published damning statistics which showed that Ireland has the 2nd most unequal balance of wealth in the developed world second only to the U.S. , i..e. the gap between the rich and the poor is the 2nd highest in the developed world after the U.S.. We certainly have the greatest income inequality in Europe. Now before anyone gets me wrong I am proud to be Irish! And we do have many good attributes (qualities) such as the friendliness of the people, the great sense of community especially in working class and poorer areas and more generally in rural areas, some good scenery, and many unspoilt areas down the country so we do have some good things going for us but not nearly enough done to merit us being the 'best' country in the world. Canada is just one example of a country with far better public services and infrastructures than Ireland, I could also mention the Scandivian countries, Germany, the Netherlands and France to name but a few who all have far superior public services and infrastructures than Ireland. Sorry to disappoint some of you but I won't be leaving Ireland anytime soon to live in any of these countries. No I am staying put in my native land to fight for a better country, no matter how much some of you would like me to leave.

by John Sat Nov 20, 2004 23:36

Well, obviously you won't be leaving soon for any of these countries, as none of them have any jobs to offer you. In Scandanavia unemployment is 8%, in France its 10%, in Germany its 11%. In little old Ireland its 4%. In the past 2 years in Ireland, we've added almost 100,000 jobs. That's the net increase. In Scandanavia, France and Germany they haven't added a single net new job in the past two years. Not one. Not a single one.
Obviously, your definition of 'quality of life' doesn't include low unemployment. You seem to have a great admiration for countries with high unemployment. But, to others in this country, its a very important consideration indeed. As for Iosaf, I do hope they make whining and moaning a sport in the next Olympics. He'd undoubtedly win six Gold Medals for Ireland.

by shoegirl Sun Nov 21, 2004 13:43 shoegirl at gmail dot com

Some of the criteria used are subjective and others are not truly representative.

For example, the community life and family values are highly subjective values.

Also some values hide conflicts - for example Ireland's high levels of home ownership obscure the high levels of deprivation experienced by a high proportion of rented sector (private and public) with regards to heating for example. However since this is seen to only impact less than 20% of the population it is dismissed.

Also it doesn't take into account that GNP and GDP and earnings are highly differentiated, with so-called averages in Ireland being heavily swung by a number of very high earning individuals. I note that it is virtually impossible to find data on median incomes in Ireland for the last years. Yet the so-called "average industrial wage" does not match the 25% lower wage levels advertised on a large number of job websites and newspapers. Some of the statistics used may simply be inaccurate.

by what I meant to be heard Mon Nov 22, 2004 23:14

"Who owns The Economist? Since 1928, half the shares have been owned by the Financial Times, a subsidiary of Pearson, the other half by a group of independent shareholders, including many members of the staff. The editor's independence is guaranteed by the existence of a board of trustees, which formally appoints him and without whose permission he cannot be removed.

"What, besides free trade and free markets, does The Economist believe in?

[EH]
"free trade, internationalism and minimum interference by government, especially in the affairs of the market.

[And the choir]
"At A.T. Kearney
our mission is clear and unequivocal: to help the world’s leading corporations gain and sustain competitive advantage, and achieve profound, tangible results for our clients.



And so said the Irish mainstream media said

lets do amusing little vox pops of what the plebs and grannies on the street think of being number one in the world

by Cassandra Donnelly Sat Nov 27, 2004 02:38 karadon at lim dot forthnet dot gr 22540 24065

i left Ireland in 1983 and was glad to do so.
I went to Greece of all places and am still here. I have watched with admiration, fascination and disbelief a country that had nothing to offer anyone, with zilch prospects, no natural resources, whose yungsters emigrated en masse each year, whose people were considered laggards, drunks, lazy, dirty, become one of the greatest success stories of the last hundred years.
I still come home every Christmas, your hospitals are great (in Greece to be sure of the best treatment you bring an envelope of money with you to bribe the doctor), your education system is unbelievable ( in Greece your child comes home after 7 hours of being "taught by incompetents who won their place by selling their votes" and you send the poor blackguard out again to private schooling which you pay for through the nose. Your judicial system and labour courts are to be lauded (a friend of mine was slaughtered on the road here and the guy who did it never spent 5 minutes in a police station). Your roads are shit!! Get over it malakes (means wankers in Greek). The traffic is wrecking your heads? Buy Fewer Cars! You really haven't got a clue. And it is obscene for a country which I always considered to have the most well read and educated populace In The World to voice their petty, pedestrian complaints without for once considering how far they've come or comparing their situation now with their pitiful situation 20 years ago. I am disgusted!

by Cassandra Donnelly Sat Nov 27, 2004 03:26 karadon at lim dot forthent dot gr

The plebs are the ones presumably who get drunk and kick the shit out of any foreigner on the street and I personally saw a Granny on the 22A bus berate a black girl cos her kid was crying saying "Go home to your own fucking country, then he'll have something to cry about." Who in Christ's name would be interested in hearing what they have to say?
Ireland has lost sight of itself bigtime!
Of course after 500 hundred years of foreign rule its understandable that the Irish would have a huge chip on their shoulders, be nonconformist, and be amazingly tolerant of their own and other's shortcomings. Introduce a little prosperity and suddenly we've become racist, intolerant, politically inchoherent as well as politically incorrect and the biggest whingers on the planet. Get over yourselves and if you can't get over it, give over whining about it. In the 1980's I saw a programme on the Late Late Show where kids from the Republic and kids from the North swapped places for a fortnight. Our kids were wowed by the facilities up there, swimming pools, community centres, units for oap's, the swanky cars on the streets. The Northern kids couldn't believe how old our cars were, how bad our roads were, how every community centre was run by some dictator of a parish priest (still happens today). At that time you wouldn't have found a Catholic housewife living in the north of Ireland who would give up her pension plan, social security, medical aid, children's allowance to be ruled by the south no matter how rabidly anti-Brit they were. Look how far we've come. We've been chosen by Nigerians, Romanians, Chinese out of all the other countries in the world for a reason. We are literally on the pig's back in comparison to other countries. Its just such a shame that the Irish themselves as the "nouveau riche' in Europe have forgotten their inheritance. p.s. no more talk about the traffic problems, you have no idea how puerile you sound, my brother in law last year when I challenged him to name one area where Ireland stinks, had the gall to mention the traffic and the fool doesn't even drive, he takes a taxi to wherever he wants to go. Now thats a priveleged society.

by newsforthedeaf Sat Nov 27, 2004 17:01

the plebs and grannies look at the wooly microphone of the RTE reporter
and cast back a glance that say's
"Are you having a laugh?"
and then ask,
"Is this Candid Camera?"

Ireland is the best place in the world to live
if you are a
trans national Corporation.

And weren't they recently certified as psychopaths?


Model citizens for 2005.

by Cassandra Donnelly - no oraganisation Mon Dec 06, 2004 03:06 karadon at lim dot forthnet dot gr 12,Maroulas, Myrina, Limnos, Greece 22540 24065

I love the way this topic has been abandoned by everyone since my last two postings. In summation I have never met an Irish granny who does not 'perform' for the camera and thats including my own two well loved and much missed grannies from Ringsend. Just had a long telephone call with my mam and dad. This year alone, my brothers and sisters have visited four of the five continents, towing their rugrats with them. That is not to mention Leslie my sister in law who recently visited New York on a pre Christmas shopping trip ( she doesn't work, my brother is a taxi driver), or my cousin Gary's wife and her sister who consider a pre Christmas trip to New York de rigeur if their kids are going to be 'sorted: come Christmas.
But, lets forget about the Younger Generation for a while who have lost the run of themselves.
Lets go back to Ringsend circa 1983, my Grandad gets his pension, he's a stevedore on the docks, except the docks have been dead since 1968. Never mind, he's living in George Reynolds which are corporation flats.
Immediatly his rent is lowered to a nominal sum which is laughable, he never had a phone in his life, one is installed gratis and he is allowed a very generous amount of FREE units for use each month, his electricity units are also graded and he gets so many free units per month, free butter, free beef, "are you still using coal Mr. Lawless?.....fucked if he doesn't get a fuel voucher too.

He
has unwecome (but lovely girls! "inhis own words) come calling offering him meals on wheels and the parish priest has decided that it is time my Grandfather went to Rimini (free of charge) and my Grandfather is hard put not to tell them all to feck off and mind their own business. He had two major operations on his eyes free of charge, he is a priority patient in the Eye and Ear and he's not too
pleased about it cos he was planning to babysit his son's house that week while his son and daughter in law visitied me here in Greece.
More recently my 14
4year old nephew worked this summer in a bank delivering the mail. The kid was bored out of his tree but his Mammy insisted. He got 700 a fortnight.One of my friends here is a senior executive in bank for the past 8 years. He walks out with 960a month (I shit you not!)
Don my brother in law who doesn't drive and takes taxis everywhere did his own survey of my local supermarket. A tin of beans here
csts 1.67. He was in convulsions. A drink costs 5 euros ( keeping in mind what the Greeks earn eh?) Again I tell you, you don't know you're born. Or maybe the people who write on this site are too young to remember the sorry state of Ireland thirty years ago.

by Cassandra Mon Dec 06, 2004 03:12 karadon at lim dot forthnet dot gr

i don't know what planet you're plugged into mate but 30,000 a year is undreamed of riches for four fifths of this particular planets population.

by Charlie Conn Thu May 24, 2007 00:35

It is with great interest that I came across this article. We always believed that Ireland was the best !.I now live in Canada and I was back In Ireland last year and found it to be 60% more expensive than Canada not factoring in the cost of houses. Houses are typically 60% smaller in Ireland (square footage)and over 3 times more expensive, I know because I once owned a house in Ireland, I'm not griping about losing half a million dollars simply because I have a daughter and son who will be buying a home shortly. Then there's the medical system thanks to Irishhealth. com it exposes how disadvantaged Irish people are with the health system. There must be something right !?... yes the tax system and thanks to that it provides for those that need it. Bertie and the boys, keep up the good work. Petrol were now paying over a $ a litre it was 1.20 Euro oh well. Charlie

by old timer Thu May 24, 2007 11:22

Oh how I wish I coukl organize a little bit of time travel for these whining teenage malcontents.

In the 1970s and 80s we had massive state job-creation schemes for public employees to do make-up jobs. Thousands of local authority houses were built by council direct labour with each unit costing the taxpayer twice the price of a typical detatched 4 bed privately built house (I jest you not!). Anyone who questioned the right of people to 'sign-on' and claim the dole without scrutiny or being asked to apply for work was considered a 'fascist'. Everyone had a right to everything without a comensurate duty or obligation. Tax rates (including levies) as high as 70% kicked in at relatively modest income levels.

In other words, the sort of policies and attitudes espoused by the baby dinosaurs of Indymedia were 'de rigour' in the 70s and early 80s - the sort of policies that were taken to their lofgical limits by the late unlamented Soviet Union that the leftist savants of the period so admired.

In these years we also had increasing unemployment (over 20%): Mass emmigration - particularly of the brightest and best: The grinding despair that is the product of joblessness: A declining tax-take to fund public services as the wealth-creators and investment-capital fled abroad: 'Stagflation' with 25% inflation and negative real-growth destroyed incentive and competitivness and put housing more out of reach to more ordinary people than nowdays.

To even argue that the liberal economic policies which began to be introduced in the 90s have not improved things for the vast majority is risible. Ireland's problems are now the problems of the rich: Most residual poverty is now the result of social rather than economic ills (drugs, alcohol, and the misfortune of being brought into the world by a single teenage mum being the most prominent causes.

by Watcher Thu May 24, 2007 12:43

Old Timer barks while dismissing the gross inequity and unfairness that abounds here with an old PD mantra, "and the misfortune of being brought into the world by a single teenage mum being the most prominent causes."
Lone parents were the first vulnerable group that the PD's attacked when they beltched forth some years ago. They have since become ticks on the rump of the Fianna Fail party, using their privilaged position to help friends and cronies gorge themselves at the State trough.
With any luck, it's all about to end. It will be interesting to see where Mary Harney finds employment given that she has never worked a day in her life.