Attack on War Memorial Gardens, Jewish Museum

by observer Fri Nov 12, 2004 13:01

Daubing a swastika on a Jewish museum is despicable and obviously the work of some moron but it hardly constitutes an "attack".

by juvinal Fri Nov 12, 2004 13:07

yet another excuse to inflict 'anti-racism' on the rest of society.

But as we all know such attacks have been sanctioned by the minister for justice's bill which everyone of the 80% voters will support wholeheartedly ( the one marked with the swastika in case you wondered) and asylum seekers get only 50cent a month and must share a 4-man tent with 50 others, live solely on stale bread and stangnant water-which is how is cruel sadistic Irish ubermenschen like it-coz their like that and that's why the need heroic 'anti-racists' to enlightened and chastise them. Aren't they sooo lucky!

by Barry Fri Nov 12, 2004 16:22

I notice the article came from that bastion of impartial reporting, the Irish Independent. There is absolutely NO evidence to suggest the paint attacks on the Brit memorial and the Jewish museum are linked in anyway. The paint wasnt even the same colour. Just another handy piece of republican bashing from the Indo. Nothing new.

by James Fri Nov 12, 2004 16:51

If your point is true how is it republican bashing?
Are you defending the vandals who attacked a British site as not being so low as to use swaskias on another site????
Are you for real???
I think to admit that the people how dabbed ANY of the paint are republicans is bashing enough -
are do you have another logic?????

by Ray Fri Nov 12, 2004 17:05

That by running the anti_british and anti-semitic attacks together, the indo is giving the impression that they are somehow linked, and that republicans are therefore anti-semitic.

by orig poster Fri Nov 12, 2004 17:33

Apologies. There is no evidence to suggest the attacks are linked. I mean they couldn't possibly be - the paint is of a different colour.

But a couple of points:-
"British site" - why is it a British site. It commemorates the war dead from every nation, but specifically the Irish people who died.
"Republican bashing" - who said anything about republicans. Why would a republican want to graffiti a site commemorating the thousands of Irish people who fought against Nazi Germany and I suppose more specifically those who fought in World War I.

by finkley Fri Nov 12, 2004 17:59

Most likely explanation...

by Barry Fri Nov 12, 2004 17:59

Firstly I didnt admit to anything. I dont know who painted the Brit monument nor do I want to know. If you read what I said youll find I referred to it as "silly".
As to why anyone would attack a British Army monument there are plenty of good reasons why people would want to do so, not that I would condone what was done. It wasnt that long back that the same Army detonated no -warning car bombs throughout Dublin, slaughtering and maiming dozens. They are still covering this up (being ably helped by the Irish authorities I would add)There has been no apology for this and many other atrocities.

This Army still occupies part of our nation and has behaved atrociously throughout its time on this island. It is currently engaged in yet another imperialist exploit in Iraq were tens of 1000s are being slaughtered for oil and political control of their nation. These are reasons enough why some people (I presume youngsters ) would want to make a point in some way.
The Irish establishment are currently attempting to promote British Army monuments as normal and acceptable. In my opinion they are neither.No-one would condone monuments to those fools who collaborated with the Army of Nazi Germany and joined its locally recruited brigades such as in Poland, Bosnia or Holland. Similarly Irish people should not condone monuments to an army whose campaigns of occupation were equally as brutal, racist and genocidal and which lasted a lot longer than the 3rd reich. They are the moral equivalent, the only difference being Hitler lost.

It would be far better if the Irish people were to consign these monuments to the dustbin of history were they belong in case they encourage more fools to take up a gun on Britains behalf and do harm to people who have never done the Irish people a damn bit of harm, unlike Britain who absolutely wrecked this country. Frankly as far as Im concerned this monument should have got the Nelsons column treatment, long ago.

As for the attack on the Jewish museum, attacks like this almost always emanate from far-right groups who are more likely to identify with the island-bridge monument itself. The indo knows this full well and is mearly trying to smear republican sentiments as they always have done in their usual cynical fashion. Attacking and denigrating anything remotely republican is that rags raison-d'etre.

by Orig Poster Fri Nov 12, 2004 18:49

You're an absolute disgrace to your country.
British monument - what are you talking about? It was erected by the Irish for the Irish and is maintained by the Office of Public Work.

"After the rejection of the Merrion Square site every avenue was explored to find a location for the Memorial. During the late 20’s and early 30’s both the Governments of Mr. Cosgrave and
Mr. de Valera where at pains to see the project fully realised and it was Mr. Cosgrave that suggested the feasibility of the present scheme.
On the afternoon of the 28th December 1931 work was begun on the construction of the Memorial.
The development of the Parkway was undertaken first and occupied two years. Work was begun on a small scale, with a few men and a few picks, shovels and wheelbarrows, but before long a labour force of over 300 men was built up."

Courtesy of: http://www.tcd.ie/General/Fusiliers/DUBFUS/MEMORIAL/HTML/mempark.htm

by Voice of Reason Fri Nov 12, 2004 19:02

"Similarly Irish people should not condone monuments to an army whose campaigns of occupation were equally as brutal, racist and genocidal and which lasted a lot longer than the 3rd reich."

You've a very realistic sense of historical perspective don't you! Britain did help save Belgium from German "Kultur" in 1914-1918 (unfortunately the atrocities which were many and real were also exaggerated).
An industrial nation engaging in something like the Holocaust has no precedent in history.

by simon Fri Nov 12, 2004 19:15

In France, attacks against Jews and their property frequently come from the Arab Muslim community. But this is not restricted to France. Is it racist to point this out, or are those who engage in racist acts the real racists?

by Barry Fri Nov 12, 2004 20:09

Hows that ? The islandbridge monument is almost exclusively identified with commemorating Irish people who joined the British army. Why else is the commemoration there held on Britains armistice day complete with British poppies, military presence, regalia et al. The memorial itself was constructed before Hitler even came to power, long before the UN was established and decades before any Irish soldier was killed on peace-keeping duties. Its purpose was simply as a monument to British soldiers .

The people who are a disgrace to their country are those renegade Irishmen who took up arms for the British army (and those who still do.) The people who are a disgrace to their country are those establishment figures who covered up the British armys' slaughter of Irish civilians on the streets of Dublin, Monaghan and elsewhere. Commemorating British Army war dead in this country given its disgraceful record towards Irish people is a disgrace.

Just becuse Hitler was an evil scumbag doesnt mean that the Irish people should have played any part in that war, the first World war or any other war on Britains behalf. It simply wasnt any of our buisiness. Having an opinion is one thing, putting on a stinking British uniform is another. The contribution a small country like Ireland could make to anyones war effort is minimal (thats when were not being used as a f*****g aircraft carrier).

As regards the idiot who appears to think I support Hitler you are well off the mark. As for making jokes about the mentally retarded I have worked in hospitals with those whose lives have been greatly affected by such illness. Close relatives of mine have not only been directly affected by this but have given up a great deal of time and effort attempting to improve the quality of life of others in our locality similarly affected. Its not a laughing matter, you bollocks.

by toneore Fri Nov 12, 2004 21:59 toneore at eircom dot net

The retarded view that my enemy's enemy is my friend. Barry, if it weren't for those poor misguided fools you would be typing your rant in German.

by Barry Fri Nov 12, 2004 22:39

Not f*****g ONCE did I refer to Hitler as Irelands friend, nor would I ever. Are you seriously trying to say that the Irish played any meaningful role in stopping Hitler ? If Irish people hadnt of joined the British Army Hitler would have won WW2, is that right now ??? !!! Jaysus, mebbe if we hadnt been neutral sure WW 2 would have been over in 1941 !!! Hitler must have been shitting himself in case we got involved.

It was the Russians and the yanks that beat the hoor, not the Brits and DEFINITELY not the idiots that joined the British army here. And anyway Hitlers atrocities did not become public until after the war was over. Even a great many Germans were unaware of what had happened. It was just another bunch of fools answering the call of "King and country" yet again, just like many of their fathers and grandfathers.

As for speaking German , sure I speak English, why would speaking German be such a bad thing ?. Dont tell me they saved us from being forced to speak in a horrid foreign tongue as well as stopping the beastly hun with a blow from their mighty shillelaghs.

by TT Sat Nov 13, 2004 02:54

No, it comes naturally to him

by old dub Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:48

As someone who had old relatives who were fooled into going to fight for the Brits in WW1, may i say that NONE of them or their friends or families had anything but contempt for the British Legion and the Irish pro-Brits who have tried for the past 90 years to use the meaningless slaughter of young working class men from all around this country to support their poppy wearing devotion to British imperialism. Of course they remembered their mates but in the same way as Brookes and Owen and Sassoon - as the victims of bloodthirsty incompetent thieves whose next venture after WW1 was to send their Black and Tan scum to this country, ironically getting the arse kicked off them by many veterens of the Somme and the other hell holes including my Da's uncles and great men like Tom Barry.

by orig poster Sat Nov 13, 2004 13:17

That doesn't mean we shouldn't have a place to remember them. And that it should not be vandalised

by iosaf Sat Nov 13, 2004 13:58

I think it is very sad that both Islandbridge and the Jewish musuem were daubed with swastikas, and I found it a bit weird, that the night before I posted in the other press section an article which obliquely referred to Armistice day, I don't think there are or have ever been any shortage of places to remember the Irish dead of the Great War.

I grew up like many thousands of others in Ireland, passing daily in sight of their names. They are carved in stone and cast in bronze in the doorways of almost every non-Roman Catholic school. The national C.of I. cathedral, St Patricks in Dublin is a perfect place to remember those of the anglican communion who died. And almost every non Roman Catholic church in Ireland has a memorial to those who Irish who died in the Great War and usually a smaller plate with the list of those who died in the 2nd War.

The annual problem with the British Legion's memorial, is that they not only comemorate those who died in the Wars against the central or axis powers of Europe, but also those who died maintaining an empire to which very few even in England would today claim allegiance. That includes all who died in the war fought against Ireland, all who died in the war fought against the Boers, fought against Africans etc.

You can read the list of all those who died in the wars against the Boers at Stephen's Green arch.
Every year therefore there are many who see fit to encourage the wearing of a "white poppy" and thus remember _all_ who died in uniform regardless of cause. To many especially in Ireland that might seem a sterile gesture which belittles the deaths of their ancestors and relatives, to many others it is the only proper way to remember the dead.

***********
I think it very unlikely that many people who use this newswire knew of the existence of the Jewish musuem which is in Portobello off the SCR in Dublin 8 prior to the daubing of a swastika. That musuem was opened when the jewish congregation of Dublin moved their synagogue which had been their meeting place down the road. A building which is now not a place of worship and curiously stands directly opposite the Irish Islamic centre and mosque on SCR. The Portobello synagogue was made by knocking down the upstairs dividing walls between two artisan terraced houses. The jewish community was concentrated then in that part of Dublin. The former President of Israel, Herzog, the former Mayor of Dublin Ben Briscoe and many others grew up in the same area where James Joyce located his fictional character Leo Bloom.
The museum (at least when I lived in Ireland before 1995) didn't open much, two afternoons a week at most, but is certainly worth a visit. It saddens me that the same night I saw a menora lit in Barcelona by a sephardic family. A family who's ancestors were expelled from Spain by Isabel the Catholic queen in 1492 an couldn't return till against his nature and paranoia of the "jewish masonic conspiracy" Franco allowed them return in the late 30s _only if they paid handsomely_.
I listened to their genuine and very sincere support for Palestinians and vehement opposition to Sharon, and it saddened me greatly to tell them that the little musuem which I remember fondly in Dublin had been daubed. And i feel pretty sure that those responsible have logged on here since.

But painted symbols do not begin or end hatred or confusion. I doubt Irish republicans who more than most in Ireland appreciate the difficulty of remembrance of armed service, would stoop to daubing the Islandbridge memorial, and my instinct is that other nastier "irish nationalist" elements did so. Those who have recently found space in Irish unviersity debating chambers, those who's irish nation would revise completely what happened in the XX century in Europe and the rôle played by Irishmen and women in that. And so it really shocks me that Minister Mc Dowell could be so blythe as to suggest that such people have no space in Ireland, for they do, they have much space, websites, mailing lists, defenders and listening ears.

by orig poster Sat Nov 13, 2004 15:41

They daubed "Free Iraq" on the monument, which does not sound like the work of far-right elements.

by Barry Sat Nov 13, 2004 18:38

If I can remind you again I descibed the painting of the monument as "silly" and made it clear i did not condone it. I speculated it was probably the work of youngsters angry about the British armies disgraceful activities in both Iraq and this country.

The clear inference was made by the Irish Independent article that republican supporters had made a "co-ordinated attack" on the Jewish museum and the British Army monument. I pointed out that the Indo is a virulently anti-republican rag which seeks to blacken anything remotely republican as a matter of course and that people should treat its musings with a major pinch of salt.(it should be remembered that in the aftermath of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings that the Indo along with certain Govt Ministers tried to insinuate Republicans were somehow responsible. They werent, it was the British Army and the bastards knew this from day one)

It should be remembered also that when the "forgotten 10" victims of British state murder were buried in Dublin a couple of years ago, other journalists such as Fintan O'toole and Kevin Myers along with the Indos own crew wrote absolutely disgraceful and hysterical pieces, calling their burials "an obscenity" and the "parade of the grotesque" These were disgraceful attacks on those soldiers memory, especially as they died fighting for the freedom of their own small nation, and it angered a great many ordinary Dublin people.

My point was, and is, that it is unsurprising that people would feel the need to make a point of some sort at islandbridge given the current political situation here and in Iraq, and that the wounds inflicted by the British upon Irish people and their psyches are still very much open. It should remembered that literally 1000s of Dubliners marched on the British embassy and burned it to the ground in the aftermath of the Bloody Sunday massacre. 1000s again took to the streets in huge protests at the deaths of 10 hungerstrikers in the British H-blocks. Only a few weeks ago the inquest took place of Dubliner Martin Docherty who gave his life saving the patrons of the Widow Scallons pub from a British death-squads' mass-murder attempt.

The use of monuments such as Islandbridge by the pro-imperialist British legion, which seeks to glamourise and promote the British Army and their activities as noble , is therefore bound to create antagonism and bring these divisions to the surface.

For me to be labelled a Hitler supporter, as well as having sneering and distasteful remarks aimed at disabled members of my family circle can only lead me to believe that
a) you are not only a bollocks but an extremely ill mannered one, and
b) you would obviously go far in a British army career.

Another poster whose family members joined the British Army in the past has agreed
with me that it was an extremely foolish thing to do, and that is how I described those Irishmen who joined the BA, as fools. I pointed out that the glamourising of Irish people joining the British army is only likely to encourage similar foolishness in the future, and that it should be consigned to the dustbin of history.That does not make me a neo-nazi.

It may interest you to know that my own (recently deceased) father was conscripted into the British Army during the 1950's and sent to Cyprus to help put down the EOKA liberation struggle.He was disgusted at how the British behaved there. While talking to other soldiers he was made aware of what the British army was getting up to in other parts of the world, essentially racist and brutal in equal measure. He returned home with a first hand knowledge and a deep hatred of the British armies treatment of innocent civilians and every thing the BA stood for.

Unsurpringly he promptly joined the IRA (just like his own father, uncles and aunts had). Much of his BA training came in useful, and was imparted to MANY others. My own childhood was interrupted a number of times by extremely frightening British army house raids and my father being arrested and beaten etc. I have seen with my own eyes what that organisation has done to my fellow Irish citizens along with its cowardly death-squads. No Irish person with an ounce of regard for his/her fellow citizens, or people who were attacked throughout the world by this organisation in their own country should have anything to do with the British legion.

We recently buried my father with a tricolour on his coffin, becuse he was an unapologetic republican and an opponent of the British Army till his last breath. Had he been killed fighting Britains war in Cyprus we would have missed out on a truly remarkable character who was well liked by both young and old in this community (and who had done a great deal to help people with many of their personal problems) Any mention of his British army past was consigned to the dustbin of history. The sooner the entire British legion in Ireland, along with the British government ,goes with it the better.

by hmmm. Sat Nov 13, 2004 18:55

ok?

let's put it this way, the British legion memorial got an "iraq" slogan. understandable considering the climate. there's worse things written on the back of toilet doors.

But it is _unacceptable_ to paint a swastika on the irish jewish museum. Thats a big no-no.
I fully understand that people are well and rightously pissed off about the middle east situation, and like i hinted I know a lot of jewish people who are vehemently opposed to Sharon. That means they put their money where their mouths are and _oppose_ sharon. And they have big gaps in their family trees.
Thanks to Edward the pogrom king of middle age england, Isabel the catholic queen of spain, and that never to be forgotten matter of six million people (including many of their grandparents generation) who went to Hitler's camps and didn't come back.

Being jewish is not the same as being "pro-Israel" not the same as being "pro Sharon". And daubing a swastika on the musuem is deeply offensive.
So if this was the work of one of our little friends, which I do really doubt, then could they have a little think please and not do it again and even go around a paint the symbol over (if it hasn't been done already).

And if they want to make a point go make it at the Israeli embassy.

by Barry Sat Nov 13, 2004 19:36

I sincerely doubt that republican supporters had anything whatsoever to do with painting the swastika on the Jewish museum. Actually throughout recent history members of the Jewish community in Dublin were quite sympathetic towards republicanism. They had been oppressed and hounded for their religious beliefs themselves and often identified with what had happened to the Irish.
Anyone with a bit of wit knows that not all jews are fanatical Zionists, just as not all Catholics are blueshirts or Protestants unionists.
The 1916 proclamation makes it clear that republicans should "cherish all the children of the nation equally"
Posters to Indymedia regularly inform us that right-wing extremists are trying to gain a foothold in Dublin and organising here. As I said the painting in Islandbridge wasnt exactly the work of a genius, but the daubing of a swastika is a different kettle of fish altogether, and most likely the work of BNP fellow traveller.

by Telmey Sat Nov 13, 2004 22:14

These photos were taken at 10:40 on 11/11/04


http://tinypic.com/lgqr5
Some of the Graffiti

http://tinypic.com/lig3p
The central alter

http://tinypic.com/lig4g
The cross

http://tinypic.com/lig4m
More Graffiti

http://tinypic.com/lig4z
Republican Thugs who can spell

n http://tinypic.com/lig5f
A Rose layed on the Damage from an earlier bomb attack which also failed to destroy the memorial.

A wreath destroyed
http://tinypic.com/lifzo

http://tinypic.com/lig01
The wreath was dedicated to the memory of the 26 brave Irishmen who were shot at Dawn
No peace as yet from the British and even less from our own sick "Irishmen".
A pardon by all ! would be the right thing !

by Indy Freedom Sat Nov 13, 2004 22:14 indifreedom at eircom dot net

This kind of graffiti is disgusting. If a swastika was daubed on a mosque in Dublin there would be the usual uproar from the indymediocrity brigade, but if it appears on a Jewish building, then it's a political comment. The men who fought against Hitler are not traitors but true PATRIOTS and HEROES. As for the Free Iraq comment - I couldn't agree more - and that is happening right now thanks to the us Marines. Latest score from Falluja:

* 1,200 terrorists killed in five-day offensive
* less than 400 terrorist mercanaries from abroad holed up in north and south in last-stand combat. Among them are foreign nationals including Syrians and Chechens. * Zarqawi escaped but 33 of his men killed. * Iraqi military say offensive all but over except for pockets of resistance, but US military and Allawi say Monday or Tuesday more credible.

Barry, you're a fellow traveller of Sean Russell and other IRA Nazi sympathizers. And look where they ended up...

by Barry Sat Nov 13, 2004 23:29

Sean Russell was most definitely NOT a Nazi sympathiser. He had a brief meeting with German foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop in 1940 after the Germans had made an offer to supply the IRA with much needed arms. Russells country was under British occupation and he was duty bound as IRA Chief of Staff to follow this offer up. Both sides regarded the meeting as "highly unsatisfactory" and no arms were ever supplied. Russel was more than willing to accept German arms but not the ideology that went with it.

The one thing Russell did recieve from the Germans was the release of his comrade Frank Ryan, Irelands most famous socialist revolutionary since James Connolly who was being held by Francos' fascists. Why would a "Nazi sympathiser" seek to have a world famous opponent of fascism return to Ireland ? It is a matter of historical record that both men were firm friends. Would Frank Ryan have a Nazi for a friend ? Nonsense.

Sean Russells' record in opposing fascism in Ireland is a matter of record and beyond reproach. Under his leadership O'Duffys' Blueshirts were literally beaten off the streets and into the hedges by the IRA anywhere they reared their ugly faces. They were even shot at and bombed on numerous occasions.The man dedicated his entire life to the freeing of his country and the noble ideals of republicanism, not the tyrannies of fascism or Imperialism. To be called a fellow traveller of Sean Russell is a compliment as far as I'm concerned, definitely not an insult.

If anyone sounds like a Nazi its yourself with your crowing over the corpses in Iraq. I can only assume you are a fellow traveller of militarists and Imperialists like MountBatten, Airey Neave, Ian Gow and Ewart Biggs. And look how they ended up ....

(ps I see your mate Dick Cheney has just had a heart attack. Must have just seen the real casualty list for the marines , eh !!)

by Terry Sun Nov 14, 2004 16:28

"They daubed "Free Iraq" on the monument, which does not sound like the work of far-right elements."

Actually a fair slice of the far-right is very anti-American and VERY anti-Israel and hence has been pro the various heads in the Middle East attacking them. It would be far more logic for the Irish far-right to support the resistance in Iraq than the Irish far-left, for the simple reason that politically they are far more in tune with the forces fighting the U.S. in Iraq.

by Barry Sun Nov 14, 2004 18:43

The memorial in Talbot Street, obscured by railings, traffic cones, builders rubble and now desecrated by dog excrement.

Here are some excepts from a recent article by Jerome Reilly about the concern shown by the authorities for the monument to the victims of the British armys' mass-murder on the streets of Dublin. I believe it puts this Islandbridge nonsense into some perspective.

"30 years after the atrocities that remain the largest mass-murder in the history of the state, the monument built to uphold their memory lies dishonoured in the centre of Dublin. Some might even call it a desecration. Iron railings haphazardly stacked and scraping against the polished granite memorial obscure the names of those who died."

"Thoughtless builders have left traffic cones and streams of reflective roadworks tape dumped around the plinth,"

"Vandals with spray cans have also had their say on the stone seats placed there for people to reflect upon the biggest atrocity ever inflicted in the states' history. And as the final insult, the builders didnt bother to clean up the loose gravel and sand they have left lying around the base, which is now a litter tray for dogs excrement."

"This has angered those who still cope with the injuries inflicted on that May Day in 1974."

"The current state of the Talbot street monument, unveiled in September 1997, also says a lot about Dublin City Council which is supposed to be looking after it. As one observer said "Can you imagine the British allowing that to happen at the Cenotaph in London ?"

" Alan Grainger of Graingers pub , situated beside the monument, put it succinctly "It's an absolute disgrace. The monument has become a dumping ground." The pub has been in the family for 3 generations and among its customers is one quiet gentleman who was badly injured when the 3rd bomb exploded in Talbot St. "That rubbish thrown against the monument is an insult to him and others like him. A lot of people who were injured in the bombing and who lost relatives still live around here, and pass the monument every day."

" 3 bombs exploded in Dublin on May 17 1974 and claimed the lives of 27 people. In all , 11 people died in Parnell St, 14 people died in Talbot St, and 2 women were killed in South Leinster St. (scores more were horrifically injured) A 4th car bomb exploded later that evening outside a pub in Monaghan Town, killing 7 people. The mass-murder of 34 people remains unsolved." ( actually it remains uninvestigated by the state)

"The Barron Report (which many of the relatives place little faith in) on the Dec 1972 and Jan 1973 Dublin bombings will hopefully soon be published."

" CIE employees George Bradshaw ,29, of Fethard Co Tipperary, and Tommy Duffy, of Castlebar, Co.Mayo, lost their lives when a car-bomb exploded in Sackville place, Dublin, on Dec 1st 1972. Their colleague Thomas Douglas of Stirling in Scotland, died following another blast, also at Sackville Place, more than a month later on Jan 20th, 1973."

So there we have it. A British Army monument in Dublin gets spray painted by kids and the authorities are there within hours to clean it up. Government ministers go on TV to announce their shock and horror, and declare theres no place in Ireland for people who would do such a thing.
A monument to the British Armys' innocent working-class victims is left like a rubbish tip, used as a dogs toilet and spraypainted by kids and they leave it like that for months. (Not surprising. It took them 23 years to even acknowledge their existence.)

Maybe when the British Legion expresses some remorse for the cowardly actions of their comrades against my fellow Irish citizens (I wouldnt hold my breath on that one), I'll have some sympathy for their memorial. As former members of the organisation which deliberately and calculatedly planned and executed these murderous terrorist acts against defenceless civilians they should hang their heads in shame (and maybe then they'll understand why so many Irish people despise the British Army)

Oh yeah, and Im a mentally retarded, neo-Nazi who's a disgrace to my country, simply for pointing this out. Mmm, says it all about the West-Brit mentality.

by orig poster Tue Nov 16, 2004 19:20

And you know what Barry, the state of the Talbot Street memorial is a disgrace as well.
But you're so selfish that you think it's only your tragedies, your family issues and your dogmatic viewpoint, which deserve respect and sympathy.
What about Jean McConville and the 3,000 others that your wonderful IRA murdered?
You managed to write half a novel in one of your last posts but failed to mention those people even once.

by orig poster Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:01

You neglect to mention where Jerome O'Reilly actually works and where this article first appeared. Oh God, it was the Sunday Independent, part of the group, you have smeared four times in this thread.

“I notice the article came from that bastion of impartial reporting, the Irish Independent”

“Just another handy piece of republican bashing from the Indo. Nothing new.”

“The indo knows this full well and is mearly trying to smear republican sentiments as they always have done in their usual cynical fashion. Attacking and denigrating anything remotely republican is that rags raison-d'etre.”

“The clear inference was made by the Irish Independent article that republican supporters had made a "co-ordinated attack" on the Jewish museum and the British Army monument. I pointed out that the Indo is a virulently anti-republican rag which seeks to blacken anything remotely republican as a matter of course and that people should treat its musings with a major pinch of salt.”

by James Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:35

You siad you didnt condone the attack but then go on in the same posting to say... Frankly as far as Im concerned this monument should have got the Nelsons column treatment, long ago...
could you please clear up the contradiction or dont you recognise when you are contradiucting yourself?

by peter Wed Nov 17, 2004 13:43

Good point. Like Kevin Boland I think it and Georgian Dublin should be demolished as symbols of British oppression. Perhaps to be replaced with new office blocks built by my friends to be rented out to other friends in the government.

by orig poster Wed Nov 17, 2004 13:47

And Trinity should be blown up too by our brave soldiers of the IRA too cause only Prods and West Brits go there. The Customs House and GPO should both go too. We should also tear up the railway lines - they are symbols of imperialist Industrial Age Britain.

by Fearghal Wed Nov 17, 2004 16:43

Its quite obvious that Barry is a sectarian moron.
How dare he question the motives of so many of our forefathers who joined the British Army when Dublin was the second city of the then empire, not least those men who were locked out of their workplaces in 1913 by great Irish nationalists like William Martin Murphy and other Irish wankers. Barrys type of cant has led to a situation where the over 300,000 irishmen who volunteered and 50,000 who died in WW1 have been shamefully forgotten. In this so called 'republic' relatives of the dead were physically attacked for wearing poppies and ultimately there was the bomb at the Enniskillen memorial, ( i'm sure Barry can justify this too)
Your time has long gone Barry you sectarian bigot. More and more people now realise the great vote of thanks we owe to all of the young men who went to die in the ranks of the British army who stood alone for so long against nazism in WW2, and who went to fight in WW1 for the rights of small nations (remember Belgium) and to support home rule (Which had already been passed at Westminster)

Thankfully not all republicans think like Barry, Alex Maskey and Tom Hartley have both visited the Somme and Messine and paid tribute to the young men whose lives were wasted there by the aristocracy of Europe. Islandbridge, and the people who go there to remember the fallen will far outlast the small minded sectarianism of Barry and his cronies.

by Joe Wed Nov 17, 2004 16:56

The poppy is not the same thing as the memorial by a long chalk. The poppy started off as the Haig fund, that was the British general who reckoned that because the population of the 'allied' nations was greater than that of the central powers a sure way of winning the war was to send wave after wave of young men to their deaths and hope the other side ran out first. The poppy is not an apolitical way of remembering the dead it is part of the imperial cooption of the dead which is why the Windsors and the British PM lead the remembrance ceremony.

The 'rights of small nations' guff just illustrates this, leaving Ireland aside 1919 also saw the British occupy Iraq and Churchilll advocating that the RAF use gas bombs on the rebellious locals.

by Fearghal Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:45

As far as I know Joe, sales of the poppy originally went to help the men who had been maimed during the 1st world war. And many Irish families were among those who were helped in a very real way by this fund.

' The rights of small nations' indeed appears like awful guff now in 2004, but back in 1914 many thousands of people genuinely believed in this as a cause, and of course the high command didn't care what the motivations of their volunteers were, as long as they could put them into the field it didn't matter. Indeed the diametrically opposed motivations of the Irish Volunteers and the Ulster Volunteers was no barrier at all to men from both organisations joining either the 10th and 16th Irish Divisions or the 36th Ulster division.

In an event that is now the focus of a lot of peace and reconcilliation work, the 36th Ulster and 16th Irish fought side by side along the Wytschaete Road on the 7th June 1917 during the battle of Messine. The Island of Ireland Peace Tower is now built there to remember all the young men from this island who were butchered there.

One of the tasks of reconcilliation is to face up to the facts of history and debunk the myths. Those remembered at Islandbridge are as integral to our history as a free nation as those remembered at Arbour Hill or the Garden of Rememberance in Parnell Square.

by bugler dunne Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:09

I have nothing against remembering those who you rightly say were butchered in WWI but they certainly did not play the same role in the fight to free this country (not completed btw incase you haven't looked at a map recently) as those who fought here against the British. As others have said, many of those who were fooled into going to France returned to fight in the Tan War. They obviously remembered their comrades killed in British uniform but they did not wear poppies or participate in the British Legion remembrance day because all of that was rightly seen not as a genuine commemoration of the dead but as a political act of identification by pro British elements in Ireland with British imperialism. The fact that they did not do so said nothing about their own remberance of their friends. Unfortunately too many people have bought into this nonsense about the dead of WWI being "forgotten". Of course they weren't forgotten. Indeed those who knew them remembered only too well the meaningless nature of their slaughter hence their refusal to be taken in by the British Legion whose entire ideology was/is based on ensuring that there would again be a pool of recruits for the next killing fields.

by Barry Thu Nov 18, 2004 18:49

Before you start on about de-bunking the myths of history you should get rid of a few of your own. Fearghal.. (deep breath).. William Martin Murphy along with the Irish nationalist "wankers" you refer to was the British Armys' No 1 recruitment agent in Ireland in ww1.

His Irish Independent (which he had bought as a mouthpiece for his mates John Redmond and Tim Healy) self-righteously and hysterically lectured to Irishmen it was their patriotic duty to go to the trenches (and their deaths).

The nationalist party (of which he was a major driving force and financer) along with his Indo newspaper was almost wholly responsible for persuading over 200,000 Irish volunteers to join the British Army. He was also the main sponsor of the slavish Home Rule bill you seem so fond of.

The hero and leader of the locked-out workers you claim to support was Murphy's sworn enemy , James Connolly, the leader of the Irish Citizen Army and founder member in 1916 of the Irish Republican Army. Connolly and his union, the TGWU, were to the forefront of bitter opposition to British Army recruitment in this country (We serve neither King nor Kaiser, but Ireland).

Following the Easter rebellion Murphy and his "wankers" called on the British to take the harshest possible measures with the republican leaders, which they duly did.
Murphy also denounced James Larkin as a subversive and hinted darkly at his "Fenian"relatives. Larkin made it clear he was proud of his revolutionary heritage.

You should also remember that Britains Royal Irish Constabulary brutally attacked the striking workers as a matter of routine.

It is also worth remebering that following WW1 the Nationalist party was virtually annihilated precisely because of its support for the British war effort. Thankfully Murphy died heart-broken months later, apparently because the British hadnt rewarded him with a title for his efforts on their behalf.

As for me being a "sectarian moron" I reject such a nonsensical slur out of hand. To oppose the British Army and its Royal British Legion cheerleaders is not the remotest bit sectarian. The British Army and government are responsible for the sectarian divisons on this island in the first place, having fostered sectarianism and used it throughout history to divide, conquer and terrorise the Irish people.(just as we seen in Talbot St).

You should remember that north of the border the British Legion is regularly found standing alongside the sectarian bigots of the Orange order at its cenotaphs. Less salubrious elements from the loyalist murder gangs stand alonside them as well. In the north quite a few of the British legions members are linked with both the orange order and loyalist paramilitaries.

Absolutely nowhere have I even hinted at religion, never mind referred to protestants or even ordinary English/British people in a negative way. My problem is with the British Army, its record in this country and against other small nations. Because the British Legion glamourises its role here as honourable and glosses over its atrocities against my fellow citizens I am opposed to its divisive presence and actions on this Island, north and south. This does not make me sectarian. As far as Im concerned a persons religion, or lack of it, is their own bloody buisiness,(not mine, yours or anyone elses)

As regards our memory as a free nation, part of this nation is still occupied by the British Government along with a larger garrison than they have in Iraq. As to the real nature of the 26 counties political independence and nationhood, ? It might be worth asking yourself how independent a country truly is when it has to cover up the mass-murder of its citizens on the streets of its own capital and elsewhere for 30 years and not even make a complaint to those responsible, the British Government and the British Army. Only this year All the garda files into the British atrocity "disappeared" from their secure archives. Independent and free my arse.

by Cathy Wed Jan 26, 2005 04:46

I totally agree with everything Barry has said.

by TB Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:41

Very well argued Barry. I know these threads can sometimes make it seem you are arguing alone. I used to bother 'debating' with fools on this board, but don't anymore. I do read some of the threads though.

by Fearghal Wed Jan 26, 2005 16:15

There is an interesting contrast in peoples response to this act of vandalism, and to the vandalism of Sean Russells statue in Fairview recently.
Tolerance of the former, outrage at the latter. Sad when you think that Islandbridge is used to remember (among others) Irishmen who fought against Nazism, while the statue in Fairview was to an ally of the same Nazism.

by Barry Wed Jan 26, 2005 16:32

As someone who thinks that William Martin Murphy was an Irish republican, you shouldnt be trying to lecture people on their history.

As I have pointed out repeatedly in a number of posts, I believe those who attacked Islandbridge and the Jewish museum simulateaneously, are in fact the same people who attacked the republican memorial in Fairview.

I believe that those responsible are trying to insinuate Irish republicans are Nazis. They have been engaging in these stunts in the full knowledge that certain reporters from a certain newspaper, with a certain rabidly anti-republican agenda will give them blanket publicity.

While I do not retract one single criticism of the Indo, the British Army or the Royal British legion I condemn the mindless graffiti on Islandbridge out of hand.

by Fearghal Wed Jan 26, 2005 17:27

'As someone who thinks that William Martin Murphy was an Irish republican, you shouldnt be trying to lecture people on their history.'

Where have I ever said this? Learn to read.

The terms nationalist and republican are not synonymous - except where people want to make sectarian headcounts apparently.

Nothing I have posted here is historically incorrect, if it doesn't suit your green mythology well thats too bad.

BTW you're friends daubing the walls in Derry - is that what being a republican means in your book? Sad git.

by pat c Wed Jan 26, 2005 17:45

Fearghal if you are looking for those Irishmen who were in sympathy with Hitler then Russell is the wrong target.

A good start would be Oliver J. Flanagan,Fine Gael, who went bon to be Minister for Defence in the infamous 73-77 Coalition Govt. In 1943, in the Dail, Flanagan cheered on Hitlers actions against the Jews and called for similar action in Ireland. Hes your Irish Holocaust supporter.

Well, are you going to go and tear down his pictures which hang in FG HQ & the Dept of Defence? How about destroying any monuments to Flanagan? Perhaps FG will posthumously expel Flanagan?

Heres some more pro fascist statements by FG TDs.

"Mr. Belton: I wish we had a Hitler here." Dail, 25/7/1935

"The Minister gave extracts from various laws on the Continent, but he carefully refrained from drawing attention to the fact that the Blackshirts were victorious in Italy and that the Hitler Shirts were victorious in Germany, as, assuredly, in spite of this Bill and in spite of the Public Safety Act, the Blueshirts will be victorious in the Irish Free State. "
John Costello 28/2/1934

"Dr. O'Higgins: I should like it to be more intelligible. However, Mussolini, I think in the opinion of all is a very great man. He has fulfilled a number [1932] of functions and held a number of positions during his life" Dail 28/5/1935

"As an Irishman and as a Catholic—a humble one, I must say—I will oppose this Bill, because I will not agree to the application of sanctions against Italy, who is going out to civilise and to Christianise a pagan race. I sincerely hope that the Italian race, and Mussolini, the great leader of the Italian people, and defender of our faith in Italy, will be successful in this war." Mr Kent, Dail (supporting Mussolinis invasion of Ethiopia)

"Mr. Morrissey: A great many people in this country think Mussolini a most intelligent man, and probably a great many people think the same of Hitler." Dail 27/5/1937

"By our action here to-day we have curried no favour except the favour that will come from Communists, from Jews and Freemasons. We have alienated Christian Catholic support in this supposed Christian Catholic Chamber." Belton Dail 19 February, 1937 speaking on the Spanish Civil War (Non-Intervention) Bill, 1937

by historian Wed Jan 26, 2005 17:55

Excellent stuff pat c. I wonder is Fearghal the same Fearghal who wrote a dull book about the Spanish Civil War that ignored all of the evidence that the Blueshirts were exactly as the above quotes prove them to be: fascists.

by Fearghal Wed Jan 26, 2005 18:03

Totally agree with you pat. The Blueshirt influence in FGs history is there for all to see.
But i've never been next nigh or near FG HQ
so I don't know whose photos are up anywhere.

I heard on a Holocaust documentary the other night that of the 20,000 or so gentiles which the Jewish people now regard as 'Righteous Among the Nations' - people who helped Jews in Europe escape the Nazis, not one of them was Irish, which is a pretty damning comment on the sort of society which we had here in the 30s and 40s - the sort where consorting with Nazis would be seen as OK as long as you were fighting the real enemy, the brits.

by Barry Wed Jan 26, 2005 18:07

My friends daubing the walls of Derry with paint are perfectly entitled to do so. Your friends in the British Army splattered the walls of Derry with innocent Irish blood.

The British Government only this week sent a Derry republican to jail over your glorious British armies massacre on Bloody Sunday.

Thats one of the reasons why Im a republican, and why I understand the difference between a republican and a nationalist only too well.

Being lectured by the likes of you on republicanism is a sick joke.

by Fearghal Wed Jan 26, 2005 18:08

No, Historian, I have never written a book on the Spanish Civil War - dull or otherwise.

A lot of assumptions are being made as to my politics, for what its worth I am both a Republican and a Socialist, but no longer a Nationalist, and have never ever been a member of FG.

by pat c Wed Jan 26, 2005 18:09

did you hear about the allied leadership who refused to bomb the rail lines leading to the death camps? they werent very worried about the holocaust. hardly very righteous of them.

but why would they worry? they were all past masters at carrying out genocide in their own colonies be it ireland, africa, india or the philipines.

by Fearghal Wed Jan 26, 2005 18:14

Your laughable claim to be a socialist and a republican has given you away !!

YOURE BERTIE F****IN' AHERN !!!!!

by Barry Wed Jan 26, 2005 18:16

I said that about Idiot Boy and his socialist republican beliefs.

by Fearghal Wed Jan 26, 2005 18:27

Never said they were pat, indeed since this thread started last year I have never been anything but critical of the 'High Command' in WW1 and have not mentioned them at all re: WW2.
They did however take on Nazism, (however belatedly) and ultimately with the Soviets and Americans, beat them.

This strand has wandered from the original posting somewhat and I know I have some responsibility for that, but issues of rememberance are still very difficult for many people obviously. There is to be a discussion around the issue of Rememberance in the Gasyard this saturday as part of the Bloody Sunday Week - maybe Barrys mates will show up to make some positive contribution????

by Barry Wed Jan 26, 2005 19:33

Theyll be there