Fallujah Delenda Est

by redjade Sat Nov 06, 2004 16:17

The Romans still harbored a bitter hatred for Carthage, which had nearly destroyed them in the Second Punic War. Sentiments ran so strong that the powerful statesman Cato ended every speech, whatever the topic, with the phrase that has become the classic example of the passive periphrastic in Latin grammar: Carthago delenda est! (Carthage must be destroyed!).

by redjade Sat Nov 06, 2004 16:25

[The invasion of Iraq] will surely go down in history as one of the most cowardly wars ever. It was a war in which a band of rich nations, armed with enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world several times over, rounded on a poor nation, falsely accused it of having nuclear weapons, used the United Nations to force it to disarm, then invaded it, occupied it and are now in the process of selling it.

I speak of Iraq, not because everybody is talking about it, but because it is a sign of things to come. Iraq marks the beginning of a new cycle. It offers us an opportunity to watch the corporate-military cabal that has come to be known as "empire" at work. In the new Iraq, the gloves are off.

As the battle to control the world's resources intensifies, economic colonialism through formal military aggression is staging a comeback. Iraq is the logical culmination of the process of corporate globalisation in which neo-colonialism and neo-liberalism have fused. If we can find it in ourselves to peep behind the curtain of blood, we would glimpse the pitiless transactions taking place backstage.

by redjade Sat Nov 06, 2004 16:51

Iraqis Say U.S. Should Talk More, Shoot Less
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=227524

''American use of unchecked force will not work. Look at the security forces that have multiplied in the past few months. The result has been less security, not more, said Haidar al-Ubadi," a senior official in the Shi'ite Al-Dawa party, which worked with U.S. and British forces after last year's Iraq war to peacefully stabilize several Iraqi cities.

"There cannot be two democratic standards, one for America and one for the Third World," he said. "Bush's policy of relying on the military and allowing former ruling Baath party members back is stifling society."

by redjade Sat Nov 06, 2004 17:01

The assault on Fallujah has started. It is being sold as liberation of the people of Fallujah; it is being sold as a necessary step to implementing “democracy” in Iraq. These are lies.

I was in Fallujah during the siege in April, and I want to paint for you a word picture of what such an assault means.

[....]

The first assault on Fallujah was a military failure. This time, the resistance is stronger, better-armed, and better-organized; to “win,” the U.S. military will have to pull out all the stops. Even within horror and terror, there are degrees, and we – and the people of Fallujah – ain’t seen nothin’ yet. George W. Bush has just claimed a new mandate – the world has been delivered into his hands.

by eeekkk Sat Nov 06, 2004 20:36

"First, Iraqi expatriate politicians alleged that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction that threatened the US and was linked to al-Qaeda. And he had killed large numbers of Kurds, and of Shiites in East Baghdad and Najaf.

But after he was overthrown and captured, it turned out that there was no WMD or al-Qaeda connecton. Then the Sadrist Shiites proved hard to control, and the United States was called upon to kill thousands of them and to bombard Sadr City, Kut, Najaf and other places, killing rebellious Shiites just as Saddam had done. So in retrospect was Saddam's crushing of the Sadrist uprising in 1999 really different from the US crushing of the same movement in 2004?

Now it is being argued that it is necessary to kill hundreds, perhaps thousands of civilians in Fallujah, in order to "save" them from a handful of foreign guerrillas. But every evidence is that most Fallujans support the uprising against the Americans, and the evidence for any significant number of foreign fighters being in Iraq is thin. Can it really be necessary to destroy a city to get at 200 foreign volunteers? So what is really probably being argued is that it is necessary to kill hundreds or thousands of Fallujans in order to remove a challenge to Mr. Allawi and his colleagues."

by eeekkkk Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:46

Heard this last night on TV. Couldn't believe the US Mil sent someone out to say this to cameras.

"U.S. and Iraqi forces hope to use the same techniques if they drive Sunni militants from Fallujah. American commanders have assembled a force of Marines, Army soldiers and U.S.-trained Iraqi fighters around Fallujah, a major insurgent base 40 miles west of Baghdad.

They are awaiting orders from interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi to launch an all-out assault.

Col. Gary Brandl voiced his troops' determination:

"The enemy has got a face. He's called Satan. He's in Fallujah and we're going to destroy him."

by the believer Sun Nov 07, 2004 13:44

Why not ?

Didin't you know that there's nothing like a wee bit of religion for cranking up the cannon-fodder before they are sent in to DIE ..... for the greater glory of Mammon ....

Surely it is as plain as the nose on your face that the "West" (i.e. its plutocrats and oligarchs and assorted Bilderbergers) are engaged in a holy crusade against the Islamic world .... the last great stumbling block to a truly globalised World Order .....

This is not _just_ about oil ... it's about something far bigger .... TOTAL GLOBAL HEGEMONY ..... oil is only a small part of the big picture ....

First they came for the Nazis .... (World War II)
Then they came for the Commies ... (Cold War)
And now they're coming for the Islamists ... (The War on Terror)

Better start believing it ......

Satan does indeed have a face ... can YOU recognise HIM ...... (he's a pretty good master of disguise) ...

by eekkk Sun Nov 07, 2004 14:20

State of emergency declared in Iraq
13:07 Sunday November 7th 2004

The interim government of Iraq has declared a state of emergency.

Martial law is being imposed in all areas except the Kurdish north.

It comes amid a cluster of deadly attacks by insurgents across the so-called
Sunni triangle.

22 people were killed in a series of coordinated attacks on police stations this morning.

by redjade Sun Nov 07, 2004 18:16

Was on CNN:

NEAR FALLUJA, Iraq (CNN) -- A company commander of the Iraqi security forces who received a full briefing on the expected Falluja assault is missing from a military base where U.S. and Iraqi troops are preparing for the possible operation.

The captain, a Kurd with no known ties to the Sunni city of Falluja, is thought to have taken notes from the battle briefing late Thursday. U.S. Marines and his fellow Iraqi officers found no sign of him Friday morning, except for his uniform and a weapon on his cot.

Marines are concerned that the information he knows could be passed along to insurgents. U.S. military sources believe insurgents have friends in the military and government.

Archived here:
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/comments.php?id=P1420_0_1_0

CNN's blank page here:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/06/falluja.missingcaptain/index.html

by redjade Sun Nov 07, 2004 18:31

Washington Post says....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31050-2004Nov6.html
Several thousand shoulder-fired missiles — the kind that could be used to shoot down aircraft — are missing in Iraq, and their disappearance has prompted U.S. military and intelligence analysts to increase sharply their estimate of the number of such weapons that may be at large, administration officials said yesterday.

Some U.S. analysts figure that as many as 4,000 surface-to-air missiles once under the control of Saddam Hussein's government remain unaccounted for. That would raise the number of such missiles outside government hands worldwide to about 6,000.

. . . . .

Former US Military Phillip Carter says...
http://inteldump.powerblogs.com/posts/1099845457.shtml
There is insufficient evidence at this point to say these missiles were lost due to U.S. neglience or deliberate indifference. I could rehash all the arguments for not having enough boots on the ground, but that's not really the issue here. My bet is that control of these items was lost as a result of the Hussein regime's collapse — not the U.S. efforts to secure the peace. Once the Hussein regime lost its grip on Iraq, field commanders saw these missiles as a way to make some cold hard cash. And so they absconded with them. To date, there have been some efforts to find them, or buy them back, but if you're a former Iraqi military guy, and you have the choice between making a few hundred bucks from a legal turn-in versus thousands of dollars on the black market, what're you going to choose?

by Michael Sun Nov 07, 2004 19:01

Reminds me of the talk about "Iraq's Elite Republican Guard" [insert Bill Hicks's joke here]. Rather than identifying their targets are poorly armed locals and like-minded resistance fighters from abroad, the US military is playing up the potential capabilities of their adversaries before the great slaughter. When they return victorious, the American people can cheer the great work of their war fighting heros. Oh what a success!

The truth is, no matter how brave the people of Fallujah are, the Americans will crush them of course. They'll do it from the sky and from tanks and helicopters. Hopefully some of the US soldiers will have enough sense to frag their officers or run away into the desert rather than participate in the bloody slaughter.

by redjade Mon Nov 08, 2004 15:42

The embeds are back. With a U.S. military assault on Iraqi insurgents in Fallujah pending, there has been a surge in news organizations seeking embedded slots with the Marine unit there, Pentagon officials told E&P today.

All 70 embed slots with the First Marine Expeditionary Force were filled two days ago, according to Sgt. Eric Grill of the Press Information Center in Baghdad.

That same Marine unit had only 15 embeds just one month ago. "It's filled up," Grill told E&P Friday. "There are no more slots."

by eekkk Mon Nov 08, 2004 20:49

"The New York Times also has another article on the targeting of the hospital that is almost a self-parody of propaganda. In the usual self-important tone, it reports that:

'[American officials] have made little secret of their irritation with what they contend are inflated civilian casualty figures that regularly flow from the hospital - propaganda, they believe, for the Falluja insurgents, whom they blame for much of the car bombings, beheadings and other acts of terror in Iraq.'

Think about the above quote. Forget that it's said by our military, which is bad enough, but imagine what it means that our leading "liberal" newspaper is reporting this snippet without comment. While it's always a tricky question to determine at what point "I'm just doing my job" is not good enough an excuse, I find it hard to forgive reporting that claim without an accompanying explanation of well-confirmed reports of actual massive civilian casualties in Fallujah -- let alone, laws of war regarding protection of hospitals."

by pc Mon Nov 08, 2004 21:55

that we're suddenly getting bombarded with US marines footage of them clearing a hospital without fire a shot? why did that suddenly appear

by eeekkk Mon Nov 08, 2004 21:59

Allow(y) courtesy of Raed in the Middle.

by Barry. Tue Nov 09, 2004 05:51

It is almost impossible to get a clear picture of what is going on inside Fallujah as well as the true extent of the resistance inside Iraq. The mainstream media dont report most of it for blindingly obvious reasons. Reports I have seen are claiming that that the mosques in Fallujah are announcing the capture of over 30 Americans in the town centre. Resistance attacks throughout other areas are also claimed to have inflicted heavy casalties.
An Iraqi journalist called Mohammed Abu Nasr is keeping the 32 CSM website up to date with breaking news on the ground which the western media WONT report. The 32csm has excellent contact with journalists in Iraq and in chechnya also, so I believe its fairly reliable as a source of info. Some reports are lifted word for word by the BBC and carried on ceefax, so even they think its fairly reliable.

Allahu Akbar. Victory to Fallujah !!

by from Reuters Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:52

Cut off from electricity, water, telephones, roads, and medical supplies. this is a war on an entire city population. here's a few snippets from the Reuter's story.
=================================

Residents in the city said a U.S. air strike had destroyed a clinic that had been receiving casualties after U.S. and Iraqi forces seized the main hospital on Monday night.

Some medical staff and patients had been killed at the one-story Popular Clinic in a central district, they added.

Sami al-Jumaili, a doctor at the main Falluja hospital who escaped arrest when it was taken, said the city was running out of medical supplies and only a few clinics remained open.

There is not a single surgeon in Falluja. We had one ambulance hit by U.S. fire and a doctor wounded. There are scores of injured civilians in their homes whom we can't move.
"A 13-year-old child just died in my hands," he said by telephone from a house where he had gone to help the wounded.

by P.Makt Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:01

Save Falloujah from The United Hate and Murder is outrageous
United Hate and Greed and Murder on Falloujah
Please send my Love and Respect to Marry Kelly ans Owen Rise.I salute their Love for the Iraqies and their Rage against the United Allies of Hate and Greed and Genocides.
I am concerned about Mary Kelly's Owen Rice's court cases!And Fate!
I am full of Love for the Iraqi People of Falloujah. The news reports of the huge hate and plans of the United Allied Murder on Falloujah is the most Outrageous news ever.
What's worse is the latest news of the extra unhuman Allied destruction of the only hospital and only clinic.This extra savage destruction and murdering both doctors and patients is a worse savage United Alliies precaution.
All the ethics of love, first aid ,international rights of treating the wounded, are Murdered ,In advance!
Please, All the Right Minded and the Right Hearted of the World:
Rise up and declare your United Love and United Respect for the Iraqi People of Falloujah.

Rage with the force of Love against this Outrageous onging United Allied Crime and murder on Falloujah.

Tell them , tell the murderers to Take off their bloody hands from Falloujah.Now!Order them:
Take off your Hands from Honourable Falloujah.Now!

My Falloujah,you are the symbol of remaining worth and dignity and Ethics.

My uncorrupted mind and uncorrupted Heart is with you Falloujah.Now and for Eternity.

by redjade Tue Nov 09, 2004 14:25

I asked one of them, a young teacher from Saudi Arabia, why he was there. He started reading the verses in the Qur'an that urge Muslims to commit jihad. He read about the importance of martyrdom. After 20 minutes, he directed me to another fighter, an older man with a beard and a soft voice who said his name was Abu Ossama from Tunisia.

"We are here for one of two things - victory or martyrdom, and both are great," he said.

"The most important thing is our religion, not Falluja and not the occupation. If the American solders came to me and converted to Islam, I won't fight them. We are here not because we want to liberate Iraq, we are here to fight the infidels and to make victorious the name of Islam."

by redjade Tue Nov 09, 2004 14:28

''No government can allow terrorists and foreign fighters to use its soil to attack its people and to attack its government, and to intimidate the Iraqi people.''

US Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld

by redjade Tue Nov 09, 2004 15:20

We were now in the same area where a couple months ago we had a mounted patrol through here, and we were driving around slowly, and we were the trail vehicle, and my AG and I were sticking out of the back air guard hatches. And we were being followed by literally 100's of little kids, they were hooting and hollering, clapping and saying stuff in Arabic. So my AG looks over at me and with a mischievous smile says, "Watch this!" and then he starts chanting: "U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!" over and over again, next thing you know all these little kids, 100's of them, started chanting U-S-A!! Over and over again, each time a little loader. We were both laughing and thought this was all funny until I saw the reaction on the older people faces on the side of the road. They didn't look too thrilled about that, once I immediately noticed that, I said, "Dude, that's not cool! Make them stop yelling that shit!" But it was too late, these kids were having too much fun chanting U-S-A! Next thing you know I saw an older middle eastern lady wearing all black pick up a rock and throw it at us, which of course started a huge chain reaction of rock throwing at us. We got out of that neighborhood in a hurry after that. Lesson learned.

from Sunday, August 15, 2004
http://cbftw.blogspot.com/2004/08/mad-mortar-men-goose-chase.html

some other Soldier Blogs listed here:
http://www.usamnesia.com/2004/11/mil-bloggers.html

by redjade Tue Nov 09, 2004 16:24

Sami al-Jumaili, a doctor at the hospital who escaped arrest when it was taken by US troops, said the city was running out of medical supplies and only a few clinics remained open.

"There is not a single surgeon in Falluja. We had one ambulance hit by US fire and a doctor wounded," he told Reuters. "There are scores of injured civilians in their homes whom we can't move. A 13-year-old child just died in my hands."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1346831,00.html

by redjade Tue Nov 09, 2004 18:14

Thousands of veterans in Michigan are on waiting lists for medical services and disability claims provided by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs.

Some reservists returning from Iraq say that, despite being promised two years of VA-paid medical service upon their discharge, they are not receiving it or have been told their cases have been deferred for months.

The VA averages 160 days to process claims, longer than its goal of 100 days and far beyond the 60 to 90 days veterans are promised. The agency says the average wait in the Detroit area has been cut by 50 days over the past year to 111 days. But veterans dispute that assessment and say they sometimes wait six months for necessary treatment and services.

by i-ball Tue Nov 09, 2004 18:35

Follow the link to see photos taken by independent journalist Dahr Jamail during the last siege of Fallujah (april 2004).

Included are :
-Ambulances with bullet holes in them.

-The soccer fields which were turned into graveyards (actually, a few days ago two people attending a funeral here were killed by incoming artillery shells)

-bombed houses etc. The stuff you won't see in mainstream media until someone does a documentary in two years time...

The last time 800-1200 Iraqis and 130 US troops were killed in the fighting. This time it will probably be a lot more.

On our TV's we'll just get to see the bright flashes in a green sky (as seen from a distant night vision camera of an embedded journalist.)

by i-ball Tue Nov 09, 2004 19:39

Iraq's largest Sunni-led political party, the Iraqi Islamic Party, has pulled out of the interim government in protest at the Fallujah assault

(confirmed by Deutsche Welle, BBC and others)

by redjade Tue Nov 09, 2004 21:40

[.....] no one's really answered the question of what comes after Fallujah.

One guess is that no one's even trying to answer that question, and that the main goal of this whole operation is to hype up the Iraqi security forces. The strategy goes like this: The Marines announce that they're coming, the insurgents melt away, and we get to see a bunch of breathtaking photographs of the Iraqi 36th Commando Battalion kicking down doors and arresting young men in hospitals. "Three cheers, the Iraqis can take care of themselves." That sort of thing. The interim government is playing along—offering promotions to every Iraqi soldier that stays and fights—and U.S. military commanders are downplaying stories about desertions. Rumsfeld called it an "isolated problem"; Gen. George Casey insisted the desertions "did not have a significant impact." They're not actually trying to defeat the insurgency; they're trying to boost the reputation of the homegrown forces.

more at
http://www.motherjones.com/news/blog/2004/11/MB_2004_45.html#12
with links to stories refered to

by redjade Tue Nov 09, 2004 21:52

Purple Hearts: Back from Iraq
http://motherjones.com/news/qa/2004/10/10_404.html

An interview with photographer Nina Berman, whose new book vividly shows that many U.S. soldiers bring the war back home.

The book: http://www.purpleheartsbook.com/

MotherJones.com: What happened with Tyson Johnson and his National Guard $2999 bonus pay?

Nina Berman: Basically, he was in the National Guard and received a bonus for joining the regular Army. He then suffered massive internal injuries and became 100 percent disabled and, therefore, could not fulfill his three-year contact. His credit report shows he owes the government back all this money, so he was deemed a credit risk when he tried to rent an apartment. Supposedly this is being sorted out for him. ABC did something on Tyson last week and they interviewed some three-star General, who said they would fix it, but I talked with Tyson a couple of days ago and it still hasn’t been fixed. But you know the bottom line is that he lives in this crappy town, away from anyone to advocate for him. And these soldiers don’t know how to advocate for themselves. They’re taught to take orders and not challenge and question authority, and this makes it really hard for them, especially if they are in pain twenty-four hours a day, which many of them are.

MotherJones.com: What about the rhetoric around troops that politicians use in campaign rallies and commercials?

Nina Berman: They say, “support our troops” or they show up at a veteran's parade and that’s it. Or, like Acosta says, they show the war and America changes the channel. For me, the best possible solution is to humiliate politicians publicly, because that’s the only way I can figure out how to make them move.

by i-ball Tue Nov 09, 2004 23:19

There's photos on the net of Bradley vehicles with rosary beads hanging from the gun barrels, http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-11/08/content_2191444.htm

Marines bent in prayer, listening to their commanding officers pumping them up for the decisive battle, invoking religion, quoting biblical texts comparing this to King David fighting the philistines etc.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1107-02.htm

When the battle is over, any of the Marines who stick around long enough to see what they've really done will have a lot to contend with.
It won't square too well with what their commanding officers told them would be a glorious and historic battle.

Lieutenant-General Thomas Metz has said that insurgents casualties very higher than expected, but civilian casualties were low...

Marines spokesman Lt. Lyle Gilbert is back on all the networks again saying that "As for insurgents casualties I can tell you that they are dying. A lot of them are dying, and that's a good thing"

Meanwhile, this has not seen much reporting.. on TV, although it's on Reuters and in newspapers in India.

"Among the Iraqis killed was a nine-year-old boy, severely injured by shrapnel in the abdomen when his home was bombarded by US jets overnight. His parents were unable to get him to hospital and he died hours later of blood loss."

Bad enough that his house was bombed, but seeing as ambulances have been shot up, the Nazzal Emergency hospital was reduced to rubble, and another clinic flattened by airstirkes, there was no hope of getting treatment for this young boy.

by barry Tue Nov 09, 2004 23:23

Iraqi journalist Mohammed Abu Nasr claims widespread use of cluster-bombs and napalm on residential districts. Also claims helicopters have been downed by Mujahideen as well as a number of tanks and Bradleys destroyed. This has been partially alluded to by an American tank commander on Al-jazeera who admitted his tank had been destroyed but refused to go into detail.

Abu Nasr also claims that Americans havent seized control of railway station but instead were driven to to seek refuge in it after Iraqi counter attack, and have since been under constant mortar fire. Hospitals, ambulances and clinics have either been destroyed or occupied to prevent reporting of civilian casualties. The journalist believes that Sunni mosques and cemeteries are being deliberately targeted by Allawis collaborator militia in order to stoke up sectarian rivalries in Iraq as a policy of "divide and conquer".

by pc Tue Nov 09, 2004 23:36

where exactly are you getting this stuff from?

by Tommy Donnellan - Galway Alliance Against War Wed Nov 10, 2004 00:22 tommyjoe at eircom dot net

THE NIGHTS OF FALLUJAH ARE A TERROR FOR THEM !
"We have fought during fitfteen days for a single house, with mortars, grenades, machine-guns and bayonets.
Already by the third day fifty-four German corpses are strewn in the cellars, on the landings, and the staircases. The front is a corridor between burnt-out rooms; it is the thin ceiling between two floors. Help comes from neighbouring houses by fire escapes and chimneys. There is a ceaseless struggle from noon to night. From storey to storey, faces black with sweat, we bombard each other with grenades in the middle of explosions, clouds of dust and smoke, heaps of mortar, floods of blood, fragments of furniture and human beings.
Ask any soldier what half an hour of hand-to-hand struggle means in such a fight. And imagine Stalingrad; eighty days and eighty nights of hand-to-hand struggles. The street is no longer measured by metres but by corpses ...
Stalingrad is no longer a town. By day it is an enormous cloud of burning, blinding smoke; it is a vast furnace lit by the reflection of the flames. And when night arrives, one of those scorching, howling, bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."
(An extract from the diary of Lieutenant Weiner, 24th Panzar Division, who fought at Stalingrad)

by barry Wed Nov 10, 2004 00:26

Iraqi journalist Mohamed Abu Nasr supplies the 32CSM website with regular updates on their website forum under the title Iraqi resistance. His reports are compiled from eyewitness accounts, mujahideen statements and information from Mafkharat al Islam and Islam memo local news agencies.
Whilst some of the mujahideen claims on casualty figures seem a bit over optimistic (they seem to be based upon the passenger capacity of destroyed vehicles), he gives a good account of the scale of the resistance throughout Iraq and details of where and when specific attacks have taken place. He claims for example a large sophisticated Iraqi army rocket was fired at Baghdad airport, which has since been closed without explanation. He also provides a good insight into the motivations and mindset of the mujahideen resistance movements.

Obviously his reports have a distinct mujahideen bias but theyre no more slanted than the American reporting and come directly from sources within Fallujah, Sammara and Ramadi rather than from embeds within the American and British ranks.

by eeekkk Wed Nov 10, 2004 16:58

Meanwhile, Rumsfeld is making his asinine remarks again,

"There aren't going to be large numbers of civilians killed and certainly not by U.S. forces,"

No- there are only an 'estimated' 100,000 civilians in Falloojeh (and these are American estimations). So far, boys and men between the ages of 16 and 60 aren't being counted as 'civilians' in Falloojeh. They are being rounded up and taken away. And, *of course* the US forces aren't going to be doing the killing: The bombs being dropped on Falloojeh don't contain explosives, depleted uranium or anything harmful- they contain laughing gas- that would, of course, explain Rumsfeld's idiotic optimism about not killing civilians in Falloojeh. Also, being a 'civilian' is a relative thing in a country occupied by Americans. You're only a civilian if you're on their side. If you translate for them, or serve them food in the Green Zone, or wipe their floors- you're an innocent civilian. Everyone else is an insurgent, unless they can get a job as a 'civilian'.

So this is how Bush kicks off his second term. More bloodshed.

"Innocent civilians in that city have all the guidance they need as to how they can avoid getting into trouble,"

How do they do that Rumsfeld? While tons of explosives are being dropped upon your neighborhood, how do you do that? Do you stay inside the house and try to avoid the thousands of shards of glass that shoot out at you from shattering windows? Or do you hide under a table and hope that it's sturdy enough to keep the ceiling from crushing you? Or do you flee your house and pray to God you don't come face to face with an Apache or tank or that you aren't in the line of fire of a sniper? How do you avoid the cluster bombs and all the other horror being dealt out to the people of Falloojeh?

There are a couple of things I agree with. The first is the following:

"Over time you'll find that the process of tipping will take place, that more and more of the Iraqis will be angry about the fact that their innocent people are being killed..."

He's right. It is going to have a decisive affect on Iraqi opinion- but just not the way he thinks. There was a time when pro-occupation Iraqis were able to say, "Let's give them a chance..." That time is over. Whenever someone says that lately, at best, they get a lot of nasty looks... often it's worse. A fight breaks out and a lot of yelling ensues... how can one condone occupation? How can one condone genocide? What about the mass graves of Falloojeh? Leaving Islam aside, how does one agree to allow the murder of fellow-Iraqis by the strongest military in the world?

The second thing Rumsfeld said made me think he was reading my mind:

"Rule of Iraq assassins must end..." I couldn't agree more: Get out Americans.

by Noel Wed Nov 10, 2004 18:19

I was wondering how long it would take for some muppet on this thread to start shrieking genocide.

If the brave gentlemen of the USMC wanted to indulge in genocide they wouldn't have waited until 90% of Fallujans had left.

Ratcheting up the labels doesn't make it truth.
The IDF kill terrorists in Jenin - terrorist sympathisers yell massacre.
The USMC kill terrorists in Fallujah - terrorist sympathisers yell genocide.

What's the next level up from genocide?
Will the iminent attack on Ramadi be Holocaust?

by John Wed Nov 10, 2004 18:30

Wow this guy noel is excellent!! Thank god for free speech from calling Arafat a terrorist dying of Aids on another thread to this .

The war in Iraq is illegal the USMC brave have you heard the term "recon by fire" basically it means blow the shit out of the place and then move in now thats brave.

Arafat may have been a terrorist but where does the Aids issue come in? Another bias there maybe.

I love indepenet media because you can actually see and read what we need to fear, crazies with attitudes like that.

there is genocide in Iraq- Noel- wake up at least 100,000 dead in 18 months is genocide

by Noel Wed Nov 10, 2004 18:36

John,

I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding our freedoms.
Thank God for free speech.

Actually John, as well as thanking God for free speech try thanking the USMC.

by John Wed Nov 10, 2004 18:38

Noel what does IDF stand for Israeli Defence Force. Well my friend- this is no defenc force, what are you defending killing a 13 year old girl on her way home from school by offloading 17 rounds into her. The commander shot her in the head to make sure she was dead!! even his own troops were disgusted by this and refused to serve under him, he was dismissed but not charged-its documented my friend.

Also do you know that the IDF and their allies have been responsible for the deaths of many irishmen. Yes Noel Irish men on peacekeeping duty have been killed by the IDF and their allies. Have you ever heard of Quana- it was a UN post in lebanon shelled by the IDF where over 100 refugees were killed. Again the brave IDF show their true colours. Get real man- terrorists can were uniforms and serve in armies and plice forces too

by John Wed Nov 10, 2004 18:42

Thank the USMC for freedom of speech,

yeah like the peole of vietnam who had their right to free speech held up by the USMC and other elements the US military.

Since when do peole confuse oil for free speech!!!!

I am amazed, the right to free speech in this country has nothing to do with the USMC and if it ever does then I'm out of here.

What a wierd view of life

by Noel Wed Nov 10, 2004 18:43

John, my friend

If it's a role call of atrocities that disgusts you you're supporting the wrong sides.

Get really real, man.

by Noel Wed Nov 10, 2004 18:46

John,

Long before Bushitler there was a real Hitler.
The USMC helped defeat his armies and hence our free speech.

Get it.
Got it?
Good.

by John Wed Nov 10, 2004 18:48

Noel

The USMC (Marine Corps) did not fight in Europe in WW2

get it
got it
good

Bye the way why no responce to my comments on the IDF the truth hurts maybe

by Fiachra Wed Nov 10, 2004 18:56

John my freind stop trying to persuade this deluded individual Noel who dosnt even know his facts correctly, I applaud your attempts to help the ignorant

by Noel Wed Nov 10, 2004 19:05

Fiachra, my freind

Do a little homework on the USMC and then rejoin. Good lad.

John, ditto.

As for the IDF, show me a credible source proving deliberate killing of civilians.

by eeekkk Wed Nov 10, 2004 21:51

he pauses for emphasis and says, "And we need birth control pills." He sits for a moment, and after making a toast with a soft drink adds, "Long life to Falluja."

by barry Wed Nov 10, 2004 23:06

How about the child the Israelis pinned down with machinegunfire just after Sharon deliberately stirred up the the hornets nest at the Al Aqsa mosque (which kicked most of this killing off)? The whole world watched it on TV for f***s sake. His father was riddled trying to pull him to safety and then they riddled the crying kid. He was about 10. Then there was the peace activist from England they shot in the head, the English cameraman they shot in the head, and the activist they ran over with the bulldozer. Theyre just well publicised cases. How many kids were mown down for throwing stones at the scumbags ? Then there was Lebanon ....Hamas have the right idea..

by kintama Thu Nov 11, 2004 00:35

it seems there is little point responding to the persistent and provocative rantings from Noel.
he has on numerous occasions been provided with ample evidence of the murderous activities of the 'IDF' and his lionization of Rumsfelds childkillers despite the evidence of dead children and badly wounded toddlers is effectively a modern day holocaust denial.
his demand for 'credible' evidence is mirrored by those who refuse to accept the evidence of a holocaust . it only is credible if he choses to believe it. yet again Noel there are none so blind etc etc

by John Thu Nov 11, 2004 01:03

Noel again,

do your homework man

USMC fought in the pacific in WW2 not Europe, no USMC personnel served iN Europe check it out its a technicality but then again genocid and lawful killing are mere technical differences.

You wake up man as for credible sources the Israeli commander in Gaza resigned because of operation directed at civilians which have no military value and which were order by Sharon, Israeli fighter pilots refused to fly missions over civilian areas, all documented, you have credible international witnesses reporting on these issues and Noel why not respond to what the IDF did in lebanon targeting civilians and the UN, had they a right to do that?

Youre some fish, the sooner you wake up the better for you

by redjade Thu Nov 11, 2004 13:08

Street By Street  

Wednesday, November 10, 2004

Even before first light -- U.S. Marines, soldiers and Iraqi National Guard troops swarmed into Falluja. Tanks and heavily armored Bradley Fighting used their main guns to blow up cars and buses parked down side streets -- just in case they might be booby-trapped -- packed with explosives.

"This is a frigging ghost town," says Corporal Steven Wolf, a squad leader for the vehicle the CAAT (Combined Anti Armor Team) Platoon. The streets are deserted. But there are some exceptions. The dead.

The Marines are operating with liberal rules of engagement.

"Everything to the west is weapons free," radios Staff Sgt. Sam Mortimer of Seattle, Washington. Weapons Free means the marines can shoot whatever they see -- it's all considered hostile.

by redjade Thu Nov 11, 2004 13:30

Question: “Do you know the REAL difference between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War?

Answer: “George W. Bush had a PLAN for getting out of the Vietnam War!”

by redjade Thu Nov 11, 2004 14:24

Mohammed Abboud said he watched his nine-year-old son bleed to death at their Falluja home yesterday, unable to take him to hospital as fighting raged in the streets and bombs rained down.

"My son got shrapnel in his stomach when our house was hit at dawn, but we couldn't take him for treatment," said Mr Abboud, a teacher.

"We buried him in the garden because it was too dangerous to go out."

by Noel Thu Nov 11, 2004 14:27

Earlier in this thread I mentioned how readily muppets used the terms massacre and then genocide and finally holocaust.

Hey presto, clever Kintama weighs in with the money shot.

Congratulations, you win an all expenses paid trip to the pharmacy where you'll receive a 2ltr bottle of cop on.

by redjade Thu Nov 11, 2004 14:48

"Usually we keep the gloves on," said Army Capt. Erik Krivda, of Gaithersburg, Md., the senior officer in charge of the 1st Infantry Division's Task Force 2-2 tactical operations command center. "For this operation, we took the gloves off."

Some artillery guns fired white phosphorous rounds that create a screen of fire that cannot be extinguished with water. Insurgents reported being attacked with a substance that melted their skin, a reaction consistent with white phosphorous burns.

Kamal Hadeethi, a physician at a regional hospital, said, "The corpses of the mujahedeen which we received were burned, and some corpses were melted."

by righteous pragmatist Thu Nov 11, 2004 15:42

Any weapon that can kill the the enemy should be used in the battlefield.
Americans use laser guided aerial bombs, heavy artillery, tank guns, mortars, heavy machine guns, rocket launchers, automatic rifles and grenade launchers, hand grenades and pistols in descending order of firepower.
In close combat with the enemy breathing in your face you are reduced to using your rifle as a club, stabbing with a bayonet or a dagger and if all else fails strangle him with your bare hands.
White phosphorous, shrapnel, bullets, naplam and bayonet blades all do the same job - kill terrorists and liberate Iraq.
So quit complaining

by redjade Thu Nov 11, 2004 15:42

Falluja, supposed to be a defining battle, showed only how undefined this guerrilla war is. The Marines swept into a city deserted by most of the insurgents, who were terrorizing and kidnapping Iraqis elsewhere.

[....]

Last night, the military said it dominated 70 percent of Falluja. But what good does that do if 98 percent of the bad guys have already moved on, or if 100 percent of the Sunnis boycott the elections out of anger over the assault? It's just like when Mr. Bush says 75 percent of Al Qaeda's leadership has been killed or captured. What good is that if Al Qaeda has become an inspirational force for 100 percent of the jihadists?

The math is self-defeating. Pictures of forces taking a Falluja mosque will no doubt spur a surge of Islamic terrorist recruits, who won't be fooled by the marines' new camouflage: their Iraqi vanguard.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/11/opinion/11dowd.html?ex=1257915600&en=2bdd5e06a7dcdbce&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

by Nordie Thu Nov 11, 2004 16:13

How about the massacre of Palestinain children this year when the IDF fired missiles from a helicopter and also fired a tank shell at a peaceful march? Make all the excuses you want for it but you know as well as I do that it was sheer murder. Why don't you just admit you support murder? Ah, feck it I don't care if you do or not.

by Barry Thu Nov 11, 2004 22:13

Channel 4 news tonight showed the marines executing a badly wounded Iraqi. They guy was lying hurt in an alley surrounded by about 8 marines. One casually walked over and killed him with a single aimed shot from close range. He then went over to the tv camera, smirked into it and said "he's gone". Seemed very happy with himself. His mates seemed to think it was a good laugh too. Doesnt take much imagination at what they do when theres no cameras. After all theyre only sand niggers, camel jockeys and rag-heads, not real human beings.

Im sure his mom will be very proud of her son and will no doubt have a nice big slice of apple pie waiting for him when he goes back home.

by Barry Thu Nov 11, 2004 23:03

And when it is said unto them "do no mischief upon the earth" they say "but we are only peace makers" - Al Koran, 2;11

by pc Thu Nov 11, 2004 23:39

http://home.freeuk.com/longdog/murder.WMV cribbing from urban75 chat... " During the battle for Fallujah, they showed a marine saying, “I’ve just injured one, he’s between the two buildings”. At that moment another marine walks over to the gap between the two houses, he then climbs on a forty four gallon drum aims his gun at the injured Iraqi and fires one shot. The SKy reporter: the veteran David Chater, whose report incidentaily did not include the caveat, that it was 'compiled under U.S military restrictions'. just says something like: 'they cannot risk suicide bombers blowing themselves up' They'd shot and wounded someone, and he was lying on the floor injured in a narrow alley between two buldings. One soldier informs another of the injured combatant - deliberately, no sense of urgency in his words, indicating that the bloke on the ground was no real threat - and the latter soldier climbs onto a wall and executes the injured bloke. So there we have it, a major crime, a wounded man executed." about as encouraging as iraq "free" elections

by KINTAMA Fri Nov 12, 2004 00:24

Just proves you need to use every weapon available to kill the enemy. the one thing missing was any evidence that the person shot was armed, had attacked the liberators or indeed was even an insurgent. he was'nt a good ol boy so he must be the enemy and if he was still in Fallujah could'nt have been up to much good.
noel welll done yet again earning the nescience title. you would appear to have some difficulty with the concept of context I fear your organs are starting to close down one by one

by ... Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:55

Avi H/Longe Gunman/Righteous pragmatist (I see you all came back at the same time) says:

"Any weapon that can kill the the enemy should be used in the battlefield."

It's a CITY dumbass. Burning it down with
inflamable ammo, or as you suggest, napalm, will kill lots of people who live there.
Dropping a bomb on a house will destroy the house, the ones next to it and kill / injure the neighbours.
That's how the US airforce "liberated" 9 year old Ghaith Abboud a couple of days ago.
His dad had to watch him bleed to death from bomb shrapnel wounds, and then bury him in the garden because there were no hospitals or ambulances (thanks to the US military) and it was too dangerous to go anywhere else (thanks again to the US military)
Mr. Abboud of course did not have an embedded journalist in his house to show us the event in al it's 'flag-waving glory' .
They were too busy sitting in humvees and thanks and helping us to identify ourselves with the invaders.

We had to destroy the town to save it. Quit complaining... Hoo-Rah, Semper Fi...

by redjade Fri Nov 12, 2004 14:05

Col. Kurtz in Apocalypse Now:

'We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their aeroplane because it's obscene.'

http://home.earthlink.net/~ajdlro/apocalypse.html

- - - - -

The FCC and self-censorship
http://www.motherjones.com/news/blog/2004/11/MB_2004_45.html#28

As part of a Veteran’s Day special, ABC had planned to broadcast Steven Spielberg’s World War II film "Saving Private Ryan" this evening. It seemed like a nice gesture, reminding viewers of when the U.S. "liberating" nations was more than spin, with a heavily honored patriotic film. But several affiliates, citing the FCC crackdown on profanity, nudity and violence, have decided not to air the film:

"Under strict interpretation of the rules, we can't run that programming before 10 p.m.," said Ray Cole, whose company owns three ABC affiliates. "We have attempted to get an advanced waiver from the FCC and, remarkably to me, they are not willing to do so."

by redjade Fri Nov 12, 2004 14:16

First Fallujah... then Mosul?
http://www.motherjones.com/news/blog/2004/11/MB_2004_45.html#29

As for the question of "What comes after Fallujah?" Kathleen Ridolfo of RFE/RL reports that foreign fighters may be moving to Mosul, a major city in northern Iraq that has been steadily deteriorating over the past few weeks. To add a bit of context here, Mosul has six times as many people as Fallujah, easily, and it is already a source of ethnic tension. As with Kirkuk, many Kurds were driven out of the city during the 1990s, replaced by an influx of strongly pro-Saddam Sunnis. The Kurds are certainly itching to take Mosul (and its oil fields) back—the U.S. had to force Kurdish peshmerga troops out of the city in the early days of the war. There are also large numbers of Turkomen, Christians, Armenians, Shiiites, and Yezidis living in the city. If there's any place where the insurgents could provoke serious ethnic violence, Mosul is it.

Insurrection in Mosul
Reuters
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=04/11/10/4448362

Gunfire and explosions have echoed across the volatile northern Iraqi city Mosul, witnesses say, and authorities imposed a curfew and closed bridges in a bid to prevent violence spreading.

"The Mosul governor has invoked immediate curfew and all bridges are closed," U.S. Lieutenant Colonel Paul Hastings said in a statement on Wednesday. "The current situation is developing," he added, without elaborating

by pc Sat Nov 13, 2004 02:34

cleare video from a us network of the same video from above leaves it ambiguos who committing more crimes agaist humanity, beheads of th US Army, they both trying hard to win though

by redjade Sat Nov 13, 2004 13:29

more at...

by eeekkk Sat Nov 13, 2004 17:13

“I can assure you, it is well over 75% of Iraqis who cannot even tolerate this occupation,” he said a little later when discussing the Bush administrations attempts to whitewash the situation in Iraq. “The right-wing Bush administration is blinded by its ideology, and we are all suffering from this, Iraqis and soldiers alike.”


....


Huge areas within the cities of Ramadi, Fallujah, Baquba and Mosul are now controlled by the resistance. Will the slash and burn tactics of the US military in Fallujah be applied to those areas next?

Meanwhile, over near the Imam Adham mosque a huge demonstration organized by the Islamic Party (which just withdrew from the so-called interim government and recently called for a boycott of the elections), broke out. It was comprised of well over 5,000 angry people denouncing Ayad Allawi and demanding his resignation.

They also demonstrated to show that they were unafraid of the US military.

And they called for jihad against Allawi.

by righteous pragmatist Sat Nov 13, 2004 22:21

The following is a comment just as the battle for Fallujah began:

"Fallujah; Just Another Scorching , Howling, Bleeding Night ?
by Tommy Donnellan - Galway Alliance Against War Tuesday, Nov 9 2004, 11:22pm
tommyjoe@eircom.net

THE NIGHTS OF FALLUJAH ARE A TERROR FOR THEM !
"We have fought during fitfteen days for a single house, with mortars, grenades, machine-guns and bayonets.
Already by the third day fifty-four German corpses are strewn in the cellars, on the landings, and the staircases. The front is a corridor between burnt-out rooms; it is the thin ceiling between two floors. Help comes from neighbouring houses by fire escapes and chimneys. There is a ceaseless struggle from noon to night. From storey to storey, faces black with sweat, we bombard each other with grenades in the middle of explosions, clouds of dust and smoke, heaps of mortar, floods of blood, fragments of furniture and human beings.
Ask any soldier what half an hour of hand-to-hand struggle means in such a fight. And imagine Stalingrad; eighty days and eighty nights of hand-to-hand struggles. The street is no longer measured by metres but by corpses ...
Stalingrad is no longer a town. By day it is an enormous cloud of burning, blinding smoke; it is a vast furnace lit by the reflection of the flames. And when night arrives, one of those scorching, howling, bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."
(An extract from the diary of Lieutenant Weiner, 24th Panzar Division, who fought at Stalingrad)"

Just been proven wrong again.
The past predictions of "The Terrible Afghan Winter" , "The Scorching Iraqi Summer" and "Saddam Hussein Will Never Be Found" spring to mind.

If you have been following the REAL battle in Fallujah you will find that out of 20,000 plus troops involved only a few hundred were wounded and about two dozen were killed.
Meanwhile 600+ Al Qaeda terrorists have been killed and thousands of them fled the battlefield rather than fight.

Americans 1 Iraqi Insurgents 0

by Barry Sat Nov 13, 2004 22:41

Americans and British - 100,000 (AND COUNTING)
Innocent civilians - 0

by redjade Sun Nov 14, 2004 13:00

Dr. Wamid Omar Nathmi, a senior political scientist at Baghdad University. An older, articulate man who vehemently opposed the regime of Saddam Hussein, he is now critical of the US policy which is engulfing Iraq in violence, bloodshed and chaos.

He told me that during the buildup to the siege of Fallujah, he had sent John Negroponte, the current so-called ambassador of Iraq, a letter which, along with several other points, asked him, “Do you think that by occupying Fallujah you will stop the resistance?”

[....]

Of course his letter was ignored, and now we watch in fear as the resistance is spreading across Iraq like a wildfire, fanned by the pounding of Fallujah.

Dr. Nathmi added, “Certainly the US military can eventually suppress Fallujah, but for how long? Iraq is burning with wrath, anger and sadness…the people of Fallujah are dear to us. They are our brothers and sisters and we are so saddened by what is happening in that city.”

He asked what the difference was between what is occurring in Fallujah now to what Saddam Hussein did during his repression of the Shia Intifada which followed the ’91 Gulf War. “Saddam suppressed that uprising and used less awful methods than the Americans are in Fallujah today.”

Dr. Nathmi is a brilliant man and certainly a warehouse of informative analysis about the events in Iraq. He was quick to point out another flaw in the US policy here, of how the US disbanded the entire Iraqi Police force in Ramadi the day before the siege of Fallujah began.

by redjade Sun Nov 14, 2004 13:04

The Iraqi government warned news organizations Thursday to distinguish between insurgents and ordinary civilians in coverage of the fighting in Fallujah and to promote the leadership's position or face unspecified action.

[....]

It also told news organizations to tell their correspondents ``to be credible and precise'' and not to ``add patriotic descriptions to groups of killers and criminals.''

by redjade Sun Nov 14, 2004 13:07

The Iraqi government hurriedly pulled in troops Friday to help control the burgeoning insurgency here, while Sunni Muslim preachers used weekly prayers to urge Iraqis to take up arms on behalf of their brothers in Fallouja.

The Iraqi government called in national guardsmen from camps on the Iranian and Syrian borders, according to an Associated Press report. Meanwhile, the U.S. moved a Marine Stryker battalion from Fallouja to help quell the violence in Mosul, Iraq's third-largest city.

by redjade Sun Nov 14, 2004 14:00

[The Media] are completely missing from the American tragedy unfolding this week at the military's Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany, where most of the seriously wounded U.S. troops in Iraq are taken. As of early Saturday, according to hospital officials, at least 412 U.S. military personnel had been airlifted to the facility from Iraq since Monday, forcing them to add beds and expand their operations.

And the pace is only quickening. The number of arrivals this week stood at 227 on Thursday, for four days, but has jumped to 412 in just the two days since.

To be fair to the brave men and women serving in Iraq, shouldn't the press place a few embeds at Landstuhl? While American fatalities receive major play in press accounts, you have to look deeply to find the numbers on the wounded and maimed. You don't get airlifted to Landstuhl for a nick or scratch. A hospital spokeswoman told Stars and Stripes today that most of the damage came from burns, blasts and gunshots, with spinal and brain injuries and "traumatic amputations" among them.

by redjade Sun Nov 14, 2004 14:02

lndependent/UK:
Civilians trapped in Fallujah face a humanitarian disaster unless Iraqi and American authorities allow food, water and medicine into the besieged city, aid agencies warned last night.

Fardous al-Ubaidi, head of the Iraqi Red Crescent Society, said her organization had asked permission from the Iraqi government to deliver aid supplies to people in the city but the request was turned down.

"There is no water, no food, no medicine, no electricity and no fuel and when we asked for permission, we were only allowed to approach the Fallujah outskirts but had no access to Fallujah itself," Ms al-Ubaidi said. A convoy of three ambulances and one truck carrying food accompanied by 15 volunteers will make the first attempt to enter the city today, she added.

by righteous pragmatist Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:57

Al-Qeada, Baath party loyalists, foriegn jihadists and Sunni fanatics were the people who are holding up the humanitarian relief of Fallujah.
The U.S. Marines assault on Fallujah has liberated the people of that city from the terrorists.
Do you think that ambulances and doctors can be sent into an area that was under the control of terrorists only a week ago while snipers murder people from rooftops?
Margaret Hassan was a trying to bring humanitarian relief to the people of Iraq in areas controlled by these scum and look what happened her. The dismembered body of a Polish woman captured the same week was found in a "slaughterhouse" where it is suspected Ken Bigley was also killed.

So get your facts straight.

The liberation of Fallujah is a victory for freedom in the Middle East

by redjade Mon Nov 15, 2004 14:06

Remember that Lancet study showing that the Iraq war may have led to 100,000 excess deaths over and beyond what would have occurred had we done nothing? No? Around the internet at least, it seems that after Slate's Fred Kaplan—an antiwar liberal, after all—"debunked" the study, [ http://www.slate.com/id/2108887/ ] everyone assumed it was invalid, or a wild guess, or pre-election propaganda. And that, it seemed, was that.

But was the study actually invalid? Daniel Davies has a long post [ http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/002858.html ] today arguing that most of the "critiques" of the Lancet study were based on a faulty understanding of statistics, and that the study, while hardly the definitive tally, is a sound study and a perfectly good estimate. Now, the study alone doesn't make or break the so-called "humanitarian case for war"—judging that case involves a lot of counterfactuals about what Saddam Hussein would and wouldn't have done, the effects of strengthened post-9/11 sanctions, and the consequences of the Hussein regime collapsing on its own. There's a legitimate debate there. But the Lancet number certainly can't be as casually dismissed [ http://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/cgi-bin/blog/science/LancetIraq/lancet.html ] as some people would like.

from....

by redjade Mon Nov 15, 2004 14:09

White House Orders Purge of CIA 'Liberals,' Sources Say

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1114-01.htm

Agency officials believed to be disloyal to Bush are reportedly the targets

by the Baltimore Sun

The White House has ordered the new CIA director, Porter J. Goss, to purge the agency of officers believed to have been disloyal to President Bush or of leaking damaging information to the media about the conduct of the Iraq war and the hunt for Osama bin Laden, according to knowledgeable sources.

"The agency is being purged on instructions from the White House," said a former senior CIA official who maintains close ties to both the agency and to the White House. "Goss was given instructions ... to get rid of those soft leakers and liberal Democrats. The CIA is looked on by the White House as a hotbed of liberals and people who have been obstructing the president's agenda."

by I-ball Mon Nov 15, 2004 14:31

Avi/Lone Gunman/Righteous Pragmatist asks -
Do you think that ambulances and doctors can be sent into an area that was under the control of terrorists only a week ago while snipers murder people from rooftops?


The 'insurgents' didn't bomb the Nazzal emergency hospital.
That was done by US jets, who dropped FOUR bombs on a hospital.

the insurgents didn't shoot 38 people at Fallujah general, or drop bombs on the downtown health clinic, or drop bombs on the medical warehouse.

The insurgents didn't shoot up the ambulances last April or this time... that was done by the US military.

The ambulance drivers did try to go out to do their job, and the US military stopped them, nobody else.
When 9 year old Ghaith Abboud was bleeding to death from wounds caused by a US bombing raid, why couldn't the ambulances from the main Fallujah hospital get to him? - because of the US military;s refusal to allow ambulances to go in.

Why was Ghaith buried in his parent's garden? - the US made it too dangerous to bring him to the nearest grave yard (football fields which were turned into grave yards in April following the last US assault on Fallujah).

AH/LG/RP is making the same empty statements as were made by US military spin doctors during Vietnam.
A load of rubbish. There is no excuse for blowing up hospitals, and all the lies in the world won't convince people who have seen the pictures.

by redjade Mon Nov 15, 2004 15:30

http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

by righteous pragmatist Mon Nov 15, 2004 18:21

What's your point?

Several of those pictures show a pile of rotting corpses which appear to have been young men wearing combat fatigue trousers and several are clad in webbing belts and rifle magazine pouches. Clearly these dead guys are dead insurgents and terrorists. The wounds appear to be from bullets and shrapnel.
Where are their weapons?
Probably heaped somewhere out of the frame or else were picked up and taken by fleeing insurgents and terrorists after they were killed.

The poor children you show were caught up in the firefight between the Americans and insurgents and terrorists.
There is no way of know the circumstances in which they were wounded in the fighting either by Americans or by the insurgents deliberately or accidentally so really I can only say its shocking and awful.
That's war.
The sooner the Americans defeat the insurgents the sooner little kids don't get killed in the crossfire.

by redjade Mon Nov 15, 2004 20:13

to you war is merely pramatic and rightous.

to me it is an avoidable tragedy.

to you, those dead people are are just a means to an end - to what end, i don't understand, but it aint 'liberation'

Sadly a majority of Americans voted for the destruction of Fallujah etc and Ireland continues to aid and abet it - now today we know Ireland pays for it (e6million - Herald).

This war will end, when we want it to.

do we want it to?

by redjade Mon Nov 15, 2004 20:32

AP Photographer Flees Fallujah

The 33-year-old Associated Press photographer stayed behind to capture insider images during the siege of the former insurgent stronghold.

[....]

Hussein moved from house to house — dodging gunfire — and reached the river.

"I decided to swim ... but I changed my mind after seeing U.S. helicopters firing on and killing people who tried to cross the river."

He watched horrified as a family of five was shot dead as they tried to cross. Then, he "helped bury a man by the river bank, with my own hands."

"I kept walking along the river for two hours and I could still see some U.S. snipers ready to shoot anyone who might swim. I quit the idea of crossing the river and walked for about five hours through orchards." He met a peasant family, who gave him refuge in their house for two days.

by redjade Mon Nov 15, 2004 20:41

These are his photos and is the guy who told the story above....

http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=%22Bilal+Hussein%22&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&x=wrt

by righteous pragmatist Mon Nov 15, 2004 21:17

Who is Hussein?
How can this story possibly be verified?

It may be true and if a family of five were shot dead by helicopters while swimming in a river well then I condemn it.

But it may also be bullshit made up by an anti-war journalist.

How the hell would you or I know anyway?

If the people swimming the river were insurgents and terrorist trying to escape Fallujah then no problem- kill the bastards- they are enemies and this is war.

If these people are civilians then either the pilots fucked up or they are murdering bastards and I'll condemn them just like the fuckers who massacred people in My Lai even though I believe the Vietnam War was right overall.

But let's put it in context.

Was the defeat of the Nazis in World War 2 unjust because at certain times young British and American soldiers more often than not shot German POW's because they wanted to satisfy their blood lust and sending them to the rear slowed up the advance?
Was the liberation of France unjust because thousands upon thousands of French civilians were killed when American and British bombers targeted ports, coastal towns, factories, railroads, bridges etc. in advance of the D-day invasions?
Was the defeat of Germany unjust because a few days before the end of the war several commandeered ocean liners packed with thousands of Jewish concentration camp prisoners guarded by SS were sunk in the Baltic Sea by British fighter bombers in the mistaken belief they were carrying German troops fleeing the advancing Russians?

Put Fallujah in its context.
The liberation of Iraq from the tyranny of Saddam was right.
The deaths of thousands upon thousands is unfortunate but yes redjane those dead people are ARE just a means to an end
But if we don't fight this war we will have to fight the Islamic fundementalists in Europe and America and our own people will die instead. You wouldn't complain then would you?

by jsr Mon Nov 15, 2004 23:19

“But if we don't fight this war we will have to fight the Islamic fundementalists in Europe and America and our own people will die instead. You wouldn't complain then would you?”
Our own people are dying, what do you think the all body bags and coffins draped in national flags contain?
What on earth makes you think they will stay away cos “we” bomb Iraq back to the dark ages? Islamic fundamentalists attacked before Iraq was invaded. How many of the 9/11 cell were from Iraq? What was Iraqs link to those events? Was Iraq a hotbed of international terrorists before "we" caused all that collateral damage?

by kintama Tue Nov 16, 2004 00:39

right to liberate Iraq from the tyranny of Saddam? I had understood that the purpose of the 'liberation' was WMD and not regime change. I suspect if Iraqis were not afraid to leave their houses for fear of being murdered by US terrorists they would perhaps yearn for the functional state provided by the old regime which despite sanctions was at least able to provide electricity and clean water for its citizens. I am damn sure they would if allowed grab the chance to be free of the terrorists who bombed Fallujah to the ground and not content with that sated their bloodlust by executing wounded Iraqis in a mosque. They 're gone.However the most ridiculous aspect of your rant is the notion that removing the old regime would in some way assist in countering Islamic fundamentalism. It would seem to have escaped your notice that the old regime was broadly secular and a counter to the Islamic fundamentalist that will now lead an independent Iraq when the invaders are vanquished.

by righteous pragmatist Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:02

"Was Iraq a hotbed of international terrorists before "we" caused all that collateral damage?"

Yes it was. Abu Nidal a notorious Islamic terrorist who organised the hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruise liner in 1985 and numerous other airline hijackings and bombings in the 1980's and 1990's was given sanctuary in Iraq until the period before the invasion. Saddam felt the noose tightening so Nidal allegedly committed suicide( he apparently managed to shoot himself five times in the head!)

Ramzi Yousef the Al Qeada terrorist responsible for the 1993 World Trade Centre bombing was given medical treatment in Iraq while he was on the run.

Ansar-Al-Islam, an organisation which was affliated with Al-Qeada had training camps to the north of Baghdad where American Special Forces who later wiped them out found instruction manuals on hijackings and a mock up of a civilian airliner. They found similar camps in Afghanistan.

Finally Saddam infamously donated thousands of dollars to each family of a Palestine suicide bomber who attacked Israel.

"right to liberate Iraq from the tyranny of Saddam? I had understood that the purpose of the 'liberation' was WMD and not regime change. "

The Americans, the British, the French, the Germans, the Chinese, the Russians and every other intelligence service were convinced that Iraq had WMD.
The issue before the war was whether Iraq was complying with weapons inspections.
Hans Blix pleaded for more time in order to find those weapons - he believed the inspections were working which implies he believed he would find WMD.
We now know that was not true.
Saddam did not possess WMD yet he was delighted that other nations believed he did and feared he would use them. He hindered the work of Hans Blix in order that we would not find out the truth and had things been allowed to continue we would still believe he had WMD. IIndeed latest report suggest that Saddam had plans to restart his weapons programme once sanctions were lifted.
Saddam used the Oil For Food program run by his friends in the UN to bribe French and German and Russian officials into voting against America at the UN Security Council and also to enrich himself while his people starved under the sanctions.
Saddam was also a murderous tyrant who murdered millions of innocent men women and children- Kurd, Shia, Sunni, Turkimen, Marsh Arab, Bedouin and Iranian.
For that alone he deserved to be unseated from power.

"It would seem to have escaped your notice that the old regime was broadly secular and a counter to the Islamic fundamentalist that will now lead an independent Iraq when the invaders are vanquished."

Yes that has escaped my notice.
Saddam ran a sectarian regime favouring only Sunni Muslims at the expense of the Shia and the Kurds who make up the vast majority of Iraqis. After the First Gulf War Saddam added "God is Great" to the national flag. As I have already shown Saddam openly supported Islamic terrorists.
On 9/11 he was the only world leader other than Mullah Omar of Afghanistan who praised the attacks.

by righteous pragmatist Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:12

"sated their bloodlust by executing wounded Iraqis in a mosque"

Presumably your mentioning the U.S. Marine who shot dead a wounded terrorist in a mosque in Fallujah?

He is now under arrest and faces a military court martial.

Apparently a soldier in the same unit was killed earlier in the battle for Fallujah when he disturbed a booby trapped corpse which blew him to pieces.
In Vietnam it was often the tactic of wounded Vietnamese to lie in wait with a grenade when an American medic came to threat them - killing themselves in the process.

I think maybe the young Marine decided he wasn't going to take a chance.
But we'll soon find out in court.

I wonder do the terrorists court martial their own troops for suspected murder?

by Barry Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:26

Even the US military wouldnt agree with you on that one.

Maybe I'm alone on this one, but theres something about someone sitting at their computer casually talking about the death and mutilation of 1000s of human beings as if its no big deal that I find highly distasteful and disturbing.

One of your previous posts was entitled "whats so bad about white phospherous ?" a substance which can literally melt the skin of a human being and burn clean through the bones.

In another thread you spoke of how it was perfectly fine to murder captured prisoners of war as they slowed up the lines of an armys advance. Again this wanton killing was no big deal.

You also make it clear you believe muslims are intent on invading America and Ireland and therefore have to be stopped in their tracks now in Iraq.

I am now convinced you are a potential danger to yourself and others and should seek psychiatric help at the earliest opportunity.

by ++good Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:55

U.S. war crimes in Falluja "on an unprecedented scale
The murder of an Iraqi freedom fighter by a US marine on live TV is but the latest manifestation of the complete disregard of the Bush junta for any international standards and laws regarding the treatment of either civilians or prisoners during wartime.

"The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 was specifically drafted to protect civilians in international armed conflicts. The convention regulates the treatment of civilians in occupied territories and forbids "grave breaches," including the "willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment" of civilians."
During April of 2004 according to Haaretz, the American army committed war crimes in Falluja on a scale unprecedented for this war. According to the relatively few media reports of what took place there, some 600 Iraqis were killed during these two weeks, among them some 450 elderly people, women and children.

continued at... http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/05/20_falluja.html

by redjade Tue Nov 16, 2004 13:52

FALLUJAH, Iraq, Nov. 15 -- Even the dogs have started to die, their corpses strewn among twisted metal and shattered concrete in a city that looks like it forgot to breathe.

The aluminum shutters of shops on the main highway through town have been transformed by the force of war into mangled accordion shapes, flat, sharp, jarring slices of metal that no longer obscure the stacks of silver pots, the plastic-wrapped office furniture, the rolls of carpet. These things would be for sale, except there are no traders, no customers, hardly any people at all in the center of Fallujah.

by redjade Tue Nov 16, 2004 13:58

The New York Times:
The Army has encountered resistance from more than 2,000 former soldiers it has ordered back to military work, complicating its efforts to fill gaps in the regular troops.

Many of these former soldiers - some of whom say they have not trained, held a gun, worn a uniform or even gone for a jog in years - object to being sent to Iraq and Afghanistan now, after they thought they were through with life on active duty.

[....]

In the last few months, the Army has sent notices to more than 4,000 former soldiers informing them that they must return to active duty, but more than 1,800 of them have already requested exemptions or delays, many of which are still being considered.

And, of about 2,500 who were due to arrive on military bases for refresher training by Nov. 7, 733 had not shown up.

[....]

"I consider myself a civilian," said Rick Howell, a major from Tuscaloosa, Ala., who said he thought he had left the Army behind in 1997 after more than a decade flying helicopters. "I've done my time. I've got a brand new baby and a wife, and I haven't touched the controls of an aircraft in seven years. I'm 47 years old. How could they be calling me? How could they even want me?"


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/16/national/16reserves.html?pagewanted=all&position=
username: mediajunkie
password: mediajunkie

by redjade Tue Nov 16, 2004 14:05

The U.S.-led postwar government in Iraq awarded business to two multinational banks fined for violating U.S. sanctions against Iraq during the regime of ousted dictator Saddam Hussein, records show.

The U.S.-appointed interim Iraqi government awarded one of the first foreign banking licenses in Iraq to British bank HSBC — the only firm fined twice for transactions with Saddam's Iraq by the U.S. Treasury Department.

[....]

JPMorgan Chase & Co., the American bank chosen by U.S. officials to manage the Trade Bank of Iraq, paid a fine four years ago to resolve allegations its Chase Manhattan Bank allowed a $50,000 funds transfer involving Saddam's Iraq.

Bids from 58 banks from around the world were considered in selecting the consortium led by JPMorgan. JPMorgan and HSBC were the only banks on that list which had paid fines for violations involving Saddam's Iraq.

by redjade Tue Nov 16, 2004 14:12

Well, the battle in Fallujah began hitting the media hard in the week before the election, right on cue.  Of course it was billed as the solution, the battle that – if you just keep Bush in office – will wipe out those insurgents and solve the problems over there.  This was yet another obvious use of our nation’s troops by President Bush as if they were campaign volunteers rather than non-partisan volunteers to defend our nation.

But Fallujah, it turns out, seems to be even more than that.  Fallujah, in effect, was the get away car for an election heist.

[....]

Picture if John Kerry had chosen to call the election into question.  Immediately, the Bush camp would talk about how 50,000 of our troops are just about to launch the biggest military operation since the invasion of Baghdad.  And, just a couple of days after the election, it was launched.

You can imagine the arguments from the Bushies:  “How could Senator Kerry undermine our security while our troops are in the midst of battle.”  Fallujah was to be the pressure point that would, if not stop Kerry from uncovering all the dirt and getting a fair election count, would at least tarnish his name with much of the nation and, as importantly, create something for the right-wing dominated media to hammer away at him on, making it seem as if he is only caring about himself and not the nation.

It was quite a well-crafted plan.  Completely amoral, but smart.

more at....

by righteous pragmatist Tue Nov 16, 2004 15:15

"I am now convinced you are a potential danger to yourself and others and should seek psychiatric help at the earliest opportunity."

I am no danger to you and to others.
I am merely having a discussion with you about the nature of the conflict in Fallujah.
Just because i don't have the same opinion as you doesn't mean i have mental problems.
I don't think you have mental problems even though i profoundly disagree with you.

White phosphorous is a legitimate battleflield weapon - it kills the enemy.
So is the crossbow, the longsword, the mace, the bullet, cannonball, gunpowder, the landmine and a pair of human hands.
None of these weapons have anything to do with fighting fair- its not a sport where parcipitation is the most important - it's war and winning means everything.

And yes Islamic fundementalist do want to conquer and enslave the entire world.
Read what the fuckers the are actually saying!
They MEAN it.

by righteous pragmatist Tue Nov 16, 2004 15:27

The Marine who shot the insurgent in that television footage has already been arrested and faces court martial and a long long prison sentence if it is proven he committed a murder.
But then he may not have.
It is common in war for wounded men to pretend they are dead while hiding a grenade under their clothing and wait for enemy to approach before detonating themselves in a last fanatical act. The Japanese on Iwo Jima where the Marines fought in World War 2 often did this as did the NVA during the Vietnam War.
A member of the same Marine's unit was apparently killed earlier in the battle for Fallujah when he disturbed a booby trapped corpse.
If I was the young Marine who just survived intense street by street house to house fighting and I saw a "dead" enemy fighter suddenly come to life I would be shitting myself. Instinctively I would pull the trigger.
I might not be right but I would do it.
That's what I think that poor scared soldier did.
But I might well be wrong.
Let us wait and see.

by ++good Tue Nov 16, 2004 15:44

As opposed to your interpretation of what might have been in the murderers head.

According to the BBC:

The NBC's Kevin Sites says the wounded men had been left in the mosque after being treated by a group of marines following Friday's fighting.

Mr Sites says soldiers from a different unit went and apparently shot the men again on Saturday without knowing whether they were armed.

"Then one of the marines points his rifle at the head of one of the injured, an old man, saying, 'He's faking he's dead'," Mr Sites' description continues.

"The sound of a shot is then heard. And in the background, another soldier says, 'Well, he's dead now'."

Conclusions:

- Treatment means these individuals who
supposedly posed a threat had their chance to
blow up the first group of marines and didn't opt
to use it.

- More likely they were searched and were found to
be unarmed before treatment.

- The soldier's concluding remark suggests he
is guilty of the pre-meditated murder of an
unarmed individual, possibly a civilian in that he
was old.

- The only possible defence is that the marine was
suffering from post-traumatic stress and was
allowed by his officer to return to the battle before
being assessed correctly.

- This is unlikely to stand up as the marine was
capable of functioning as a soldier, and of
recognising the plight of the injured civilian before
deliberately making the avoidable choice of
murdering him.

- His best hope in a civilian court would be
manslaughter.

by righteous pragmatist Tue Nov 16, 2004 18:28

Manslaughter it is then.

If you were in the same position would you have acted differently?

On Omaha Beach June 6th 1944, landing craft touched down ramps were lowered and men stepped off into deep surf laden with equipment and weapons only to be shot to pieces by Germans firing down from the clifftops. The rest of the day was given over to bellycrawling across an exposed beach over chunks of flesh that were once their buddies and scaling the cliff and knocking out one enemy position at a time with grenades and gunfire and hand to hand fighting.
When soldiers fight for their very survival they must be consumed with rage and act savagely to defend themselves.
There were many instances on that day when Germans defenders threw up their hands in surrender just as the Americans and British overran their positions. This gesture was mostly futile - the attackers shot them out of hand.

That is what I imagine occured when that young soldier shot the unarmed wounded insurgent.
It's awful.
That's war.

by ++good Tue Nov 16, 2004 18:51

I murdered a civilian or an enemy but I was pumped up on adrenaline, or wanted to get revenge will now be a legitimate defence.

What's next?

The Nazis exterminated the Jews because of a perceived future threat?

Israeli troops killed Tom Hurndall because he got in the way of their operations?

Serbs killed Bosnian Muslims because it was either them or us?

I killed my wife because I found somebody new?

Where do you draw the line? And more importantly if this type of treatment is meeted out to prisoners and/or civilians what kind of treatment can we expect when were on the receiving end?

by righteous pragmatist Tue Nov 16, 2004 21:26

There is no way you can compare the America and Israel to the Nazis and the Serbs.

by Jimmy Tue Nov 16, 2004 21:34

Got this a few minutes ago:

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. Marines rallied round a comrade under investigation for killing a wounded Iraqi during the offensive in Falluja, saying he was probably under combat stress in unpredictable, hair-trigger circumstances.
Marines interviewed on Tuesday said they didn't see the shooting as a scandal, rather the act of a comrade who faced intense pressure during the effort to quell the insurgency in the city.
"I can see why he would do it. He was probably running around being shot at for days on end in Falluja. There should be an investigation but they should look into the circumstances," said Lance Corporal Christopher Hanson.
"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."
The military command launched an investigation after video footage showed a U.S. Marine shooting a wounded and unarmed man in a mosque in the city on Saturday. The man was one of five wounded and left in the mosque after Marines fought their way through the area.
A pool report by NBC correspondent Kevin Sites said the mosque had been used by insurgents to attack U.S. forces, who stormed it, killing 10 militants and wounding the five. Sites said the wounded had been left for others to pick up.
A second group of Marines entered the mosque on Saturday after reports it had been reoccupied. Footage from the embedded television crew showed the five still in the mosque, although several appeared to be close to death, Sites said.
He said a Marine noticed one prisoner was still breathing.
A Marine can be heard saying on the pool footage provided to Reuters Television: "He's f***ing faking he's dead."
"The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head," Sites said.
NBC said the Marine, who had reportedly been shot in the face himself the previous day, said immediately after the shooting: "Well, he's dead now."
The Marine commander in Falluja, Lieutenant General John Sattler, said his men followed the law of conflict and held themselves to a high standard of accountability.
"The facts of this case will be thoroughly pursued to make an informed decision and to protect the rights of all persons involved," he said.
Marines have repeatedly described the rebels they fought against in Falluja as ruthless fighters who didn't play by the rules. They say the investigation is politically motivated.
"It's all political. This Marine has been under attack for days. It has nothing to do with what he did," said Corporal Keith Hoy, 23.
Rights group Amnesty International said on Monday both sides in the Falluja fighting had broken the rules of war governing the protection of civilians and wounded combatants.
Gunnery Sergeant Christopher Garza, 30, favored an investigation but like other Marines said the Pentagon should weigh its decision carefully.
"He should have captured him. Maybe the insurgent had some valuable information. There may have been mitigating circumstances. Maybe his two buddies died in Falluja," he said.
Sites said: "I have witnessed the Marines behaving as a disciplined and professional force throughout this offensive. In this particular case, it certainly was a confusing situation to say the least."
The U.S. military has been embarrassed by scandals in Iraq, most prominently the Abu Ghraib affair in which at least eight U.S. soldiers have been tried or face courts-martial over the abuse of prisoners at the jail outside Baghdad.
There have also been several cases in which soldiers have been charged with wrongfully killing Iraqis during operations.

by riotous non-pragmatist Tue Nov 16, 2004 22:27

QUOTE: "There is no way you can compare the America and Israel to the Nazis and the Serbs".

Yes one should not slander the Nazis and Serbs in this manner ..... they were complete amateurs compared to the US and Israel ......

Interesting though to see "Nazis" (a political movement) thrown into the same pot together with "Serbs" (a nation) ......

by Barry Tue Nov 16, 2004 22:38

Who were, interestingly enough, the only guerilla force to physically defeat the Nazis. (hopefully theres an ominous historical lesson to be learned there, somewhere)

by SGT Freedom Tue Nov 16, 2004 22:45

20 MILLION of his own people in the glorious workers paradise of Russia.
He makes Hitler ,Pol Pot and that ameatur Milosivic look like compleate saints.
So how many prooveable genocides can you lot hand to the isrealis and the USA?In other words NONE!!!
Piss or get off the pot

by riotous non-pragmatist Tue Nov 16, 2004 23:04

Uncle Joe Stalin may have been a mean bugger but he was a wartime ally of Winston Churchill and FDR so let's not forget that .....
And bad and all as he was he never came close to establishing as complete a global empire as the USA has done ......

As far as provable genocides are concerned .... well the US had a hand in Vietnam and Indonesia to name but two of the most bloody massacres it has assisted in ...... and Agent Orange is still causing birth defects in Vietnam ......

And as for the Israelis, one of their own historians Benny Morris has freely admitted their hand in a wee bit of "ethnic cleansing" ...

"There is no justification for acts of rape [...] or acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.
There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide—the annihilation of your people—I prefer ethnic cleansing.

That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on. "

by righteous pragmatist Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:55

"Who were, interestingly enough, the only guerilla force to physically defeat the Nazis. (hopefully theres an ominous historical lesson to be learned there, somewhere)"

The Serbs who defeated the Nazis were not the same Serbs who generations later killed Bosnians, Croats and Kosovars.
Lots of brave young Irishmen joined the British specials forces in WW2 and parachuted into the Yugoslavia to help the partisans fight the Nazis.

And your forgetting the people of Warsaw in 1944 especially the Jews who fought and defeated the German SS only for Stalin's forces to stand back and abandon them.

by Archivist Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:58

"And your forgetting the people of Warsaw in 1944 especially the Jews who fought and defeated the German SS only for Stalin's forces to stand back and abandon them."

Wrong. The Jewish uprising was in 1943 and it was the Poles who stood back and abandoned them.

by James Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:39

...the Soviets were on the outskirts of the city and had artillery within range and choose to do nothing.
A shameful episode for all except for those tradgic heroes of the uprising.

by Joe Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:46

Archivest is right because people are mixing up the Warsaw Ghetto rising (when the bulk of the Polish resistance stood back) and the Warsaw uprising of a year later (when the Russians stood back and Churchill refused to allow the Polish paratroopers to fly to Warsaw).

by redjade Wed Nov 17, 2004 13:34

Speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of U.S. military reprisal, a high-ranking official with the Red Cross in Baghdad told IPS that ”at least 800 civilians” have been killed in Fallujah so far.

[....]

”The Americans close their ears, and that is it,” the Red Cross official said. ”They won't even let us take supplies into Fallujah General Hospital.”

The official estimated that at least 50,000 residents remain trapped within the city. They were too poor to leave, lacked friends or family outside the city and therefore had nowhere to go, or they simply had not had enough time to escape before the siege began, he said.

Aid workers in his organisation have reported that houses of civilians in Kharma, a small city near Fallujah, had been bombed by U.S. warplanes. In one instance a family of five was killed just two days ago, they reported.

”I don't know why the American leaders did not approach the Red Cross and ask us to deal with the families properly before the attacking began,” said a Red Cross aid worker, who also spoke on condition of anonymity.

”Suddenly they attacked and people were stuck with no help, no medicine, no food, no supplies,” he said. ”So those who could, ran for the desert while the rest were trapped in the city.”

by redjade Wed Nov 17, 2004 13:37

Yet it is a measure of the stunning absence of accountability under Mr. Bush that it is Mr. Powell who leaves, while the architects of the failed and even disastrous policies he opposed, from postwar Iraq to Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib, remain in office. Mr. Bush has signaled lately that he would like to repair some of the diplomatic damage of his first term, starting with U.S. relations with Europe. We trust he's sincere, but it's hard to be optimistic that he'll succeed without acknowledging that the secretary of state who lost all those first-term arguments, and who now has been let go, more often than not was right.

Washington Post Editorial
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52909-2004Nov15.html

by redjade Wed Nov 17, 2004 13:41

"He's dead now." He said it calmly, matter-of-factly, in a sort of sing-song voice that made my blood run cold… and the Marines around him didn't care. They just roamed around the mosque and began to drag around the corpses because, apparently, this was nothing to them. This was probably a commonplace incident.

We sat, horrified, stunned with the horror of the scene that unfolded in front of our eyes. It's the third day of Eid and we were finally able to gather as a family- a cousin, his wife and their two daughters, two aunts, and an elderly uncle. E. and my cousin had been standing in line for two days to get fuel so we could go visit the elderly uncle on the final day of a very desolate Eid. The room was silent at the end of the scene, with only the voice of the news anchor and the sobs of my aunt. My little cousin flinched and dropped her spoon, face frozen with shock, eyes wide with disbelief, glued to the television screen, "Is he dead? Did they kill him?" I swallowed hard, trying to gulp away the lump lodged in my throat and watched as my cousin buried his face in his hands, ashamed to look at his daughter.

"What was I supposed to tell them?" He asked, an hour later, after we had sent his two daughters to help their grandmother in the kitchen. "What am I supposed to tell them- 'Yes darling, they killed him- the Americans killed a wounded man; they are occupying our country, killing people and we are sitting here eating, drinking and watching tv'?" He shook his head, "How much more do they have to see? What is left for them to see?"

by redjade Wed Nov 17, 2004 13:47

Of the more than 1,000 men between the ages of 15 and 55 who were captured in intense fighting in the center of the insurgency over the last week, just 15 are confirmed foreign fighters, Gen. George W. Casey, the top U.S. ground commander in Iraq, said Monday.

by redjade Wed Nov 17, 2004 15:47

No one expects the capture of the former Sunni Muslim stronghold to halt the insurgency — even within the city itself. One military official said Fallujah would probably wind up like Baghdad, a city under ineffective government control where insurgents have little problem mounting attacks.

By any account, the United States and Iraq's interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, will have a tough time making friends among Fallujah's surviving residents.

The brutal assault has crushed homes and mosques and ground much of the southern neighborhoods into rubble. Survivors are hungry and aid convoys have been unable to reach them.

by redjade Wed Nov 17, 2004 15:55

Hungarian National Assembly has decided on Monday, 15th November, not lenghtening the mission in Iraq of the hungarian troops. The contingent of 300 soldiers will end its mission up to the end of this year, as originally fixed by the National Assembly - has been confirmed. Ruling coalition forces, the socialists and the free democrats (liberals) have voted for the lenghtening, centrists and rightwing representatives against. The lenghtening of the mission should had obtain a 2/3 majority to pass, but it obteined 191 votes against 158. Opinion polls continue indicating, that the overhelming majority of the hungarian population is against the occupation of Iraq and for the withdrawal of the hungarian troops.