Socialists Urge Community to Unite against Racism

by era Thu Sep 16, 2004 20:34

Maybe it means that you self-styled “anti-racists” haven’t a snowball’s chance of convincing anything close to a majority of the electorate that they should allow the mass systematic and organised abuse/exploitation of the asylum process.

by See me I'm crying Thu Sep 16, 2004 17:11

As one of your co-patriots, whatever that is when its at home ('the last refuge of a scoundrel' and all that springs to mind) could you please explain to whom you address those comments.

by laugh or cry Thu Sep 16, 2004 17:06

Do you REALLY believe that your judgement is SO much better than that of the great mass of your co-patriots?
This kind of arrogance is spectacular and deserves you the growing distrust of the people that that you seem bent on trying to win over.
You've lost every debate so far!

by dunk Tue Sep 14, 2004 14:32

hello all

"ASF in ireland".
liberty hall 2pm

despite calls for boycott of the "irish social forum in ireland" by badman on indymedia i would encourage all people to come, and also to encourage these african/black familes to come to the social forum which is happening this saturday in liberty hall.

we are all aware of the divisions between different groups of left here in ireland, i hope we do make the step to overcome it
i have gone to SWP/ IAWM events to inform "normal people", those arriving fresh to this political world, of things they might not necessarly hear- ie SWP talk on chomsky last night where big call was made for the ESF, not one mention of the ISF, till i mentioned it.
social fora around the country are growing due to their geographical location, i think that a local smaller social fora group can and should grow on ethnicity lines and when the social forum happens they plug in as the rest do.
so, as far as i know, there was not an "african social forum in ireland", now there is- ISF people claim its taking the brand and not being part of the charter- why not go with it, make it real, it is worthy of attempting to strengthen these networks.
so hopefully there will be a diverse group of people this saturday at the social forum in liberty hall
more on this discussion here
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=66514&condense_comments=false#comment86528
including audio report with LUKE CHOTO, part of ASF group


as well as this there is the SARI football tournament @ grangegorman this weekend
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=66161

Amnesty For All
by Unity - African Social Forum
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=66515

and lastly the imc article after imc-people attended the IAWM confernce after bush visit
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=65858

amnesty for all

by Joe Tue Sep 14, 2004 13:34

No they were saying that it didn't matter at which time our farthers came to work this sod.

The United Irishmen project was to unite those who had been here for centuries with more recent arrivals. The only people trying to stir up trouble between the recent arrivals and the rest were the Brits and the Peep O Day boys. And the Peep O Day boys became the Orange Order. Did you sleep through history or were you just busy doodling swastikas on your copy book?

by evener realer again nationalist Mon Sep 13, 2004 22:55

are sure that you're not more similar to the OPPONENTS of emancipation?

After all weren't they also trying to protect the privileges of an ethnic minority at the expense of the rights of the indigenous majority?

by obviously a realer nationalist Mon Sep 13, 2004 22:25

was said by William Orr before being hung. He was a dissenter and like wolfe tone believed that a catholics had rights too, and that unity of catholic, prodestant and dissenter was the only way forward. against very much the grain of thinking at the time. When it was believed catholics could not be trusted. Much like today when those who stand up for rights for immigrants are attacked by those who believe they should have no rights, well done nationalist you've caught up with human rights circa 1790's and of course those rights your concered with are solely your own. Wolfe Tone? you have no right to use his name to spout your un humanistic nonsense. all people are equal, just as the united irishmen preached 200 years ago. (not just irish catholics are equal)

by Tone Deaf Mon Sep 13, 2004 18:51

Would that be Wolfe Tone, descendent of British settler/immigrant whose family subsequently immigrated to the US? Only the historically ignorant could link Tone in some way with anti-immigrant nationalism.

by Joe Mon Sep 13, 2004 17:44

As a fan of the United Irishmen you'll be aware of how active many of the key figures were in campaigning against the slave trade. It was pretty much the case that after the 1780's British slave ships had to abandon Belfast and Dublin as ports of call.

And of course Edward Fitzgerald the military leader of the 1798 rising personally brought an 'asylum-seeker' back to Dublin with him. Only his first name is known, he was called Toby and had run away from a slave plantation during the American war of independance.

Of course those playing the fools game in those days (trying to stir up racial/sectarian hatred) were those who founded the Orange Order. But then you know this already as you are a 'real nationalist'!

by real nationalist Mon Sep 13, 2004 17:27

These are the words of a Great Irishman Wolfe Tone. He might have added that they also always betray their own country or maybe like the Trotskyites they have no country! No wonder the working class hate both sets of parasites and chancers.

by Tom Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:50 olearys at oceanfree dot net

I suppose that Ireland, like many other EU member states will face problems when attempting to balance individual, regional, national and EU determinations. It will be interesting to see whose authority will yield the most significant changes in forthcoming years....

a. The people within a nation-state
b. The people within the european union
c. The Irish government
d. The European Union

pure democratic self-determination of the people of a nation-state is inhibited in a partisan political system, as there will always be large segments of the population whose views aren't being represented...whose ideals aren't being realised. The closest thing that we can achieve is national determination based on our current democratic system...which means that in reality, our future can be shaped by the slightest majority of the people...

...although sometimes our national decisions are made autocratically somehow...

Peace out...

by FF Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:14

‘Isolationist’ is your interpretation and I don’t know exactly you could justify going by the posts here. It is an American expression and hardly applies to an E.U. member State.
What's at stake here is National self detemination. This time many of those who oppose it come from within and wield considerable power in media , academia etc.

red herrings are a favoured tactic.
I'm gone!!

by Tom Sat Sep 11, 2004 19:54 olearys at oceanfree dot net

I'm not quite sure why you refer to we Irish as being filthy, although I'm sure some of us are. I usually take on a stink after several days of camping. Stink aside, I continue to have a problem with your isolationist desires.

I suppose that the middle ground between us would be some level of immigration control that is formed with an objective to control population growth in line with our ability to sustain it...WITHOUT regard to race or ethnicity. That said, it will be increasingly difficult to achieve with open borders throughout Europe.

Peace out....

by FF Sat Sep 11, 2004 18:49

mnnnn......I see...your point being that we flithy Irish have no sovereign right to define our own future... just to be brief an illegal is an illegal and, yes, a sovereign State has a right to deport them.....and FYI ALL immigration laws are selective as defined by the lawmakers of a given Country. like to spend longer but time=money like ya know !

by Tom Sat Sep 11, 2004 16:08 olearys at oceanfree dot net

Am I correct in stating that you, FF, believe that all Irish people living abroad should be sent back to Ireland, and that all non-Irish people (including the English) living in Ireland be sent back to their originating countries?

If so, what a clusterf*&%# that would be...even logistically. If it were to happen, than Ireland's population would more than double overnight when all Irish emmigrants return to their homeland (from the US, Australia, England, UAE, etc.). Talk about stressing out the employment situation at home. It would be chaos.

Or, perhaps, would your plan be selective, based on deporting only those who YOU decide should be sent back to where they came from?

Peace out....

by FF Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:58

Sinn Fein know at their highest level that their support from working class people is based on the perception of them as a Nationalist Party. This they exploit in a sinister and duplicitous manner. They recognise, probably better than you, the essentially patriotic character of working class culture. To accuse somebody or group of being deceived is hardly showing them disrespect.
The real disrespect, on the other hand, is shown to them by leftists who dismiss as ill-founded their just concerns and righteous sense of betrayal coz “ You know better”. So you set out to patronisingly “re-educate them” as opposed to what should be done which is to put them straight on the shinners’ true agenda.

As for anyone who criticises the radical left agenda being anti-working class again I think you’ll find many working class people who are ardently Patriotic and contemptuous of the whole idea of those who wish to make them “equal” with foreigners in their own Country- and so they should be!

by Freddy Wed Sep 08, 2004 18:09

The establishment always try to divide working people as a way to control them. Using ethnic differences is one way of doing that. FF is just an establishment stooge, and does not represent the interests of working people.

by Fergal Wed Sep 08, 2004 17:37

That's some nice flip-flopping you're doing there FF.

Yesterday: 'liberals' should learn some respect for the working class

Today: "the illogical Irish Nationalist working-class support for S.F"

And then both of these in the same post:

"extreme right wing movements playing the immigration card"

"Immigration controls make sense both for social peace and the health of democracy"

Care to reconcile these statements?

by FF Wed Sep 08, 2004 17:31

Do me a favour!! You sound like Axman interviewing a Shinner on 'newsnight '.
Anyone can see that working-class resentment is not only inevitability going to lead to regrettable incidents, like those mentioned, but also creates fertile ground for extreme right wing movements playing the immigration card. The only reason this hasn’t happened already is the illogical Irish Nationalist working-class support for S.F.

This will end sooner or later when their incompatibility with their supporters’ views becomes more obvious.
And no, I don't share your faith in the likelihood of your argument being accepted by any substantial amount either (even If you are right).

Immigration controls make sense both for social peace and the health of democracy.

by fingallian Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:55

Just so that I don't misunderstand... you are not of course defending the attack on the two families?

by RD Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:41

Nonsense, FF, if all the recent immigrants went back tomorrow the working class would not gain one cent - they would still be treated like shit by the criminals who run this country.

by FF Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:35

Maybe it’s because they know that it is THEM who has to compete with limited recourses and services with the immigrants and their communities which get overran.
Working class people have always been the most patriotic class- unlike middle class ‘liberals’ whom they know are their arch enemies -no matter how they claim ,and even believe themselves, to be the opposite.

'liberals' should learn some respect for the working class and start listening to them for once! They might learn something about the real world.

by Davy Carlin - ARN Mon Sep 06, 2004 20:29 carlindavid at hotmail dot com

Any more info on this matter?, First I have heard of it, Keep us updated on a community response to this.

by Colm Breathnach - ISN personal capacity Mon Sep 06, 2004 20:24

As far as we know the incident happened last thursday in an estate in Finglas South. About eight men in their late teens attacked the house shouting 'niggers out'. This area has seen some racist/nazi graffiti in recent months.

Both the ISN and SF in Finglas as well as RAR have publically condemned the attack. We are currently in discussion with residents of the area to ascertain what happened exactly, who was involved and how best to respond.

by fingallian Mon Sep 06, 2004 18:31

Abuse edited out by an editor As the posts above you indicate - the same people responsible for the attack on the families in Finglas and Cabra are the same people who prey on their decent working class neighbours, people you insinuate are supportive of such attacks. I doubt that you are even familiar with working class Dublin but no doubt that won't stop people like you preaching and wanking over "neo-nazis". These are the same scum who have been drug dealing, joy riding, mugging and house breaking for years. It would be nice to think that the cops might stop them but that unfortunately is wishful thinking.

by jimbo Mon Sep 06, 2004 18:24

From my experience working with different people over the years in different jobs, its people who call themselves 'decent working class' who are the most vicious racists one could encounter. I dont run into them anymore except for taxi drivers.

As for taxi drivers, I'm always amazed that they think you want to hear their ignorant vitriol (e.g. "weathers cold.., blacks dont like it.., shouldnt be over here anyway.., etc).

by cabrarian Mon Sep 06, 2004 18:17

the attack in Finglas occured over a week ago and involved the attacking of the black families' house by anti-social elements. these same elements have been attacking local residents for ages.
last week in Cabra, another black family had their car and property attacked, again by local scumbags. Despite local support for this black family, they have indicated that they may leave. Once again, decent working class
people will have to defend their communities 'by all means necessary '

by Chekov Mon Sep 06, 2004 18:09

Good to see you standing up to this so vocally. But, any more details about the attack itself? It's the first I've heard of it.