Workers should not vote for SP/SWP/Gallagher/Perry/Mooney et al

by proletarian Mon May 31, 2004 18:21

I agree, to some extent, with your analysis. I wouldn't vote for Perry, SP and SWP because at least some of them seem very cocooned in dogmatic mantras, unable to grasp the issues that most affect the working classes.

Cards on the table, I'm a Sinn Féin voter, but, that said, I have no problem giving transfers to the likes of Bacik (who, in my opinion, is a v. good candidate), or Richard-Boyd Barrett or other SP/SWP/Labour candidates, provided I think they are politically sound.

As lefties, we have to stick together, because division is the main obstacle to socialist progress.

by We are the SP - We are the SP Mon May 31, 2004 18:40

Have you actually read any of our material? We have plenty to say on those issues.

by Canteen Kevin Mon May 31, 2004 18:46

These trolling right-wing scumbags have been allowed to have their rant undeleted for the last 45 minutes.

"As lefties, we have to stick together, because division is the main obstacle to socialist progress." The muppets can't even disguise their trolling intent properly

Delete or face the inevitable throwback feeding frenzy.

I mean -"Ordinary man" "Proletarian""I'm a Sinn Féin voter," -for fucks sake, these FF loving gobshites would be dangerous if they had half a braincell between them.

by Chekov (1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group) - Indymedia Ireland Mon May 31, 2004 18:54

I don't think that this falls under any of the guidelines for deletion. Perhaps under the 'not news' rule, but it is slightly more substantial than the posts that generally fall under that heading. If any editor disagrees with me, feel free to delete - I don't feel strongly about it.

I agree with Canteen kevin that it is probably from a FFer. However, I wouldn't worry about it, as CK says, the trolling is so dumb that it will hardly influence anybody, no matter how dim. Best to either ignore it or use it as an opportunity to explain just how wrong it is. These ignorant trolls often backfire as they are shown up by peer review in the comments which makes the intended target of the attack look much better than the attacker.

by Black Blocer Mon May 31, 2004 19:00

Thats what the lot of them are. Applying sticking plaster to the system they hope to take over. Capitalism must be smashed and so must the fake left who prop it up. They are also the first line of police.

Direct Action is the only way!

by Chekov (1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group) - Indymedia Ireland Mon May 31, 2004 19:14

How many black blockers have ever used the term 'petty bourgeois reformists'? Answers on a post card to the Spartacist League, c/o "The firm", Langley, Virginia.

by Black Blocer Mon May 31, 2004 19:29

He and the rest of the faux Anarchists are little different from the other misleaders of the Proletariat. Yet another logjam that must be removed before the workers can sdail on to victory. He will eventually face the wrath of the risen people once the blinkers have been removed from their eyes.

Down with the Faux Anarchist Labour Lieutenants to the Captains of Industry!

by fellow spirit Mon May 31, 2004 19:33

Would you support the forcible removal of all these petit-bourgeois elements to the countryside where they could be re-educated through labour?

And endlessly rogered if they prove to be recalitrant? That's how I see things panning out myself. Can't wait. Especially for the rogering part.

by Black Blocer Mon May 31, 2004 19:52

Indeed they will be put to work in the fields. Lets see how good Chekov is at pulling a plough.

by nice but dim tim Mon May 31, 2004 20:06

not that im up on the spelling of the black bloc or anything

by Bolak77 Tue Jun 01, 2004 02:47

I'd agree with proleterian, as far as the county council elections are concerned, Lab, SP, Greens, SF vote together in opposition, so lets try and pull at least one county council from the clutches of FF/FG. I'd hope to see it happen in Fingall, my own area, for we've suffered long enuff.

by loving my rough as fuck tan pauper Tue Jun 01, 2004 08:53

Doesn't matter who you vote for the Government always gets in.

The SP/SWP failure is its choice to focus on privileged students, its support base is made up of ever fickle upward mobile aspiring students, todays trendy students will be tomorrows stuck up professionals.

Champange socialism will never work, and will always be out of touch with the poor and working class.

You cannot achieve revolutionary freedom and equality for all by aspiring to get working class people to adopt the false niceties, snobbiness, and nasty competitiveness of the upwardly mobile middle classes and rich.

Capitalism preaches to us, that it is the be all and end all to live in the cosy world of the middle classes and rich.

It puts middle class professionals up on a pedestal, above working class people to aspire to become, and look up to, yes you too can live in the plush swanky jet set world of the middle class and rich.

They don't tell you that the rich and middle classes live empty, anti social lives within their isolated ivory mansions, that all the wealth, possessions and finery in the world does cannot buy happiness.Which is why the rich and middle classes are so sneaky, competitive and nasty. Most child sex offenders, and peadophiles are middle class white professionals.

Within trade unions and worker groups, some socialists do a good job in terms of representing workers rights against fat cat bosses.

In some cases that is their limit beyond which no other life exists. You cannot choose to ignore the existence of the poorest and unemployed forever.

Bruce lee says in 'enter the dragon' slums look the same all over the world. Indeed shanty towns, ghettos, council estates and slums all over the world look the same, the global poor are same, and thanks to illogical racism some slum dwelling white poor people choose to look down on their poor brothers and sisters in the third world.

Revolutionary liberation theorists nuns and priests recognise the benefit of working from the bottom up, they recognise the inherent integrity, holiness and potential of the third world poor and peasants.

Revolutionary catholicism teaches that the lowest of the low, the poorest of the poor are closest to God, as mother theresa believed. It is a living miracle to transform a desperate, dirt poor third world street urchin into a revolutionary street fighter for the poor and global peasants.

The living proof of this is the zapatistas and subcommandente marcos, an example to us all.

Anarchism is wasted on the spoilt children of the middle classes and rich, who see anarchism as an extension of their plastic MTV fantasies, their brand of anarchism is just as empty and foreign as champaigne socialism, with their chic swanky american cock rock numetal and pseudo angsty teeny bopper stars.The children of the rich and middle classes know nothing of struggle, suffering and poverty, they only know the selfishness and inward looking self centredness of their comfy swanky consumer lives.

Its time anarchism, socialism moved out of the insular ghettos of the rich and middle classes and into the lives of the people who matter the most , the poor and working class.

by ec Tue Jun 01, 2004 13:15

.

by Joe Tue Jun 01, 2004 13:24

A university professor no less.

Not that I'd hold that against him, a couple of decades living in the jungle/mountains would do wonders for some of the more arrogant university professors of the Irish left.

by David Tue Jun 01, 2004 13:28

Or has he been exposed?

by Joe Tue Jun 01, 2004 13:55

Although Marcos never directly confirmed it the Mexican government outed him during their 1995 offensive as 'Rafael Guillen'. Marcos complained they were trying to ruin his reputation with the women by claiming he was really somebody so ugly.

Do a google for 'Marcos Rafael Guillen' and you'll find lots of info.

by loving pauper Tue Jun 01, 2004 15:34

Marcos ugly?, have you seen him, he's gorgeous. He may well be ugly, compared to your stereotypical golden aryan, but he's got lovely eyes and a beautiful heart.

by aunty voting Tue Jun 01, 2004 16:18

It is a waste of time voting for the sp,swp Gallagher or Mooney etc as they have little to say on the long hours (unpaid) spend travelling to work or for a reduction in the working week to 30 hours. The sp muppet who claims that they have a policy already on these issues needs to read his own propaganda, because I have never come across it. It is very true that we as a nation have less holidays than many other EU countries and of course none of the above respondants commented on this or any of the other points in the original post. But of course they are party hacks whose first instinct is to censor rather than open debate

by Dunderhead Tue Jun 01, 2004 16:46

I think people just might be missing the point here, a wee bit.

Since when did Dublin City Councillors have the power to decide anything in relation to working (or commuting) hours, childcare, number of public holidays, etc.?

Most of these matters are now decided at Brussels level, so questions should be directed to the Euro candidates.

by G Tue Jun 01, 2004 18:23

"shouldnt "black blocer" be spelt black blocker?"

Nonesense!! Spelling is a tool of the opressive reformist lapdogs who piss upon us night and day. Bad spelling is the first step on the path to the revolution. Soon they will all be put to work in the fields where i will whip them till they bleed. Or maybe we'll just exterminate the whole middle class...

by Proletarian and Proud Tue Jun 01, 2004 21:08

Kevin,
While I understand your ire, surely branding people thickos when they disagree with your politics is a little regressive politically.

Indeed, it is normally the likes of right-wing journalists in the Sunday Indo and other such rancid publications that resort to such tactics, for the simple reason that they can't engage intelligently.

I am a SF supporter because I believe their policies on every issue from partition to American imperialism is thoroughly in line with Marxist thinking and strategy, and, most importantly, it's the only party that can actually achieve revolutionary change.

If the SWP/SP have good proletarian policies (i.e. policies that take as their first objective to empower the propertyless), than why is their main support base amongst the university student population (and very limited within that)? Why has SF, in contrast, consolidated a strong working class base? Is it, in your opinion, because we working class people are "thick"? Maybe you reveal a little of your snobbery.

by Student Tue Jun 01, 2004 22:39

but anyone who thinks that their main support comes from university students is a lunatic. Their main support is in places like Mulhuddart where university students are a bit thin on the ground. In fact I've always wondered how the few students they do seem to attract get on with the prolier-than-thou rest of them.

The SWP, well you have more of a point though they seem to be mostly ex-students rather than current ones.

by joe carolan - swp Wed Jun 02, 2004 04:05

This thread is easily answered by a visit to the SWP website- all local election leaflets are available there as HTML. Herer is a selection of some of the issues our candidates are being "very quiet about".

from Dave Lordan's election leaflet


ABOLISH THE BIN TAX!

The people of Ballybrack, Loughlinstown, and Shankill are right to protest against the hated bin tax. The bin charges have nothing to do with cleaning up our environment. They are a way of making the service attractive for private investors.

Privatisation of the bin service would lead to more pollution, not less. In other areas across the country where privatisation has occurred, charges have increased hugely and waivers have been reduced or abolished. This inevitably leads to illegal dumping and burning of rubbish. Because we have organised public meetings, protests and pickets against the charges we have fought the council to a standstill on the issue.

Despite the councilís threats to leave behind peopleís bins our protests ensured that all bins were collected.
There is a real chance that, as with the water rates a few years ago, we can force the council to back
down on the issue if we continue our campaign.

If elected to the council I will campaign for:

* The abolition of all charges for waste collection
* The cancellation of all bin tax arrears
* The provision of accessible recycling facilities for all
* Defence of all council services against privatisation

More Council Houses Now

While private developers are enjoying a gold rush 3000 people are stuck on the housing list in Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown. This situation is disgraceful and must be turned around now. As a result of the close connections between the big construction firms and the mainstream political parties more and more land is being given over to unaffordable housing and commercial developments.

The building of local authority houses has almost ground to a halt. This is part a deliberate attempt drive working class people out of the area so that millions can be made out of private developments. It is no coincidence that many of the major construction firms are major donors to Fianna Fail and Fine Gael.

Currently there are huge delays for anyone who seeks repairs or upgrading from the council. There are no adequate facilities for elderly and disabled people in many council houses

If elected I will campaign for

* A huge increase in the building of social affordable housing.
* A cap on Council Rents and reductions in cases of hardship
* An immediate halt to the use Council land for private development
* More full-time tradesmen to be employed by the council so repairs can be carried out quickly
* Proper facilities for disabled and elderly people to be installed in all council houses.

Amenities for young people

As a teacher I am aware that amenities for teenagers and young children are pathetic. The government complain about drugs, crime and teenage drinking but provide young people with no alternatives.
They are too busy looking after property developers and fat cats.

We are fighting for proper amenities for young people. I will campaign for:

* More funding for local clubs
* Playgrounds and youth facilities Retain green spaces in all residential areas
* Re-open Dun Laoghaire Baths for the public. Public amenities not private apartments on the Carlisle pier and the seafront

Rights for women and families

Creche facilities for working parents are inadequate and expensive. Many mothers find it difficult to get time off work to look after sick children.

WE NEED: State funded affordable creches and more creche places in every area. Women must have the
right to paid time-off for sick children.

Stop Bush: US military out of Shannon

Bertie Ahern should not welcome George Bush to this country in June. Bush lied to the world about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and killed 10,000 innocent civilians in a war for oil. It is clear the Iraqi people do not want the occupation and they are rising against it.

The government should not allow the US military to use Shannon airport to carry out wars that kill innocent
civilians. Dave Lordan and the Socialist Workers Party are playing a key role

WE SAY:

* No Welcome for George Bush
* US Military out of Shannon
* End the Occupation of Iraq and Palestine

No to the referendum: All Children are Equal

Justice Minister McDowell wants to deport the parents of Irish Children and deprive them of their citizenship.
Don't be fooled by this despicable attempt to play the race card. Fianna Fail/PD's policies are deeply
unpopular.

They want us to blame vulnerable immigrants for the problems in housing and health caused by this governments policies. Workers should reject the citizenship referendum. Everyone must fight together for
a fairer society.

From Shay Ryan's election leaflet (Ringsend):

Proper Crèche Facilities.

Nearly 40 percent of parents avail of paid childcare. These facilities are among the most expensive in Europe because local authorities do not provide crèches. Only one percent of three years olds in Ireland have access to pre-school education compared to 60 percent in Germany.

‘If elected I shall insist that Dublin City Council provides proper crèche facilities – and help to organise parents to achieve this through people power’.

No Sell Off of Council Housing

The city council plans to sell off its complete housing stock over the next few years to private housing agencies. ‘I support Tenants First in their opposition to the rent rises and insecurity that will follow if speculators get hold of council housing’.

Reverse The Cuts in C.E. Schemes

Crèche facilities, social clubs for the elderly and disabled have all been affected by Mary Harney’s cuts on Community Employment schemes. If elected Shay Ryan will campaign to have these cuts reversed.


From Joyce Power's leaflet (Bray)

Joyce is the mother of two teenage daughters, and is a council tenant from 'Little Bray' with a strong family history in the area. Joyce supports the campaign for a full-time fire service, and is against the privatisation of the council bin service.

She is part of the Tenants First organisation that is opposed to the selling off, of council houses to private speculators. Joyce is also on the committee SOS Save Our Services. Its aim is to stop the closure of Loughlinstown Accident and Emergency service.
Contact Joyce at 01 2866680 or
email joycepower@eircom.net


Joyce studied Environmental Resource Management in Cathal Brugha DIT. In the past she has worked in the Welfare Rights Office of the 'Little Bray' family resource centre.

She is also a member of 'Muscular Dystrophy Ireland' and 'People with Disabilities in Ireland' Joyce is a member of the local Bray Anti-War Group, she took part in the protests last year against the war in Iraq and is still opposed to the Irish Governments support of George Bush's policies.

She is a long time supporter of Bray Wanderers FC

What Privatisation Has Done To Bray

When candidates knocked on the door in the June 1999 local elections, they never mentioned that they wanted to privatise the bin service.

But after the elections, Fianna Fail councillors told the people of Bray that privatisation would lower the cost of bin collection.

They did not tell us that the service was to be handed over to one refuse collector, Nobel Waste – a financial supporter of the Fianna Fail party.

Nobel eventually sold his business to Greenstar for over twenty million.

Since 1st January 04 the cost of a bin tag has increased to 5.35 euros, the second increase in twelve months. The bag has also been reduced in size.

Greenstar’s only motive is profit. It has no responsibility to clean up spillages or remove torn bags, which they insist be left outside the gate by 8.am each morning. The council workers always collected from inside the gate to avoid such littering.

Over seven thousand people signed the petition for the retention of the council bin service in January 2000.
Joyce Power is a socialist who will be campaigning to get this service back in public hands.


STILL WAITING FOR A FULL TIME FIRE SERVICE

The fire service in Bray is a disgrace. Eight people have died of fire related injuries in the past 12 years.
Seven of the people who died came from one working class estate – Old Court which is just across the road from the fire station.

But because it is a retained fire service, lives are lost. Bray is a rapidly growing town of nearly 40,000 people. Speedy intervention can save lives.

If elected Joyce Power will campaign for a full time fire brigade for Bray and for regular fire safety checks on council estates.


NO TO CLOSURE OF LOUGHLINSTOWN ACCIDENT AND EMERGENCY SERVICE!

Joyce Power is opposing the attempt by the Fianna Fail/PD government to close the A&E service in St Columcille’s Hospital.

The service is currently catering for thirty to forty thousand people a year.

Over the next ten years, there is expected to be a 25% increase in the population of North Wicklow.
We need to expand the service in Loughlinstown - not close it.


HOUSING MAINTENANCE

The Bray town council House Maintenance Department has been run down to the level of just three to 4 workers.

Twenty years ago there were 25 workers in this section.

Now council tenants are left to the mercy of private contractors, employed by the council, resulting often in bad work.

Sometimes council staff have even had to re-do the work.

To add insult to injury the rents for council tenants this year increased by 18%.

by chrissake Wed Jun 02, 2004 09:53

Other parties deliver their election material. They don't post it on Indymedia.

by Canteen Kevin Wed Jun 02, 2004 13:28

If you are the same trolling throwback who posted this pathetic attempt to stir shit Ican onlt presume you waited 24 hours to respond in the hope that I wouldn't be arsed to repond.

I am branding nobody a "thicko", what I am saying ,a chara, is that you are a lying FF/FG/PD loving slimebag who is fooling nobody with your pathetic attempt to posture as a Sinner.

Get the point? You are NOT a Sinn Féin voter/supporter,

I mean;

"Cards on the table, I'm a Sinn Féin voter"

You are just another anonymous posturing lying right-wing scumbag.

by Makhno Wed Jun 02, 2004 15:11

Who the fuck is Mary Ellen you Dickhead? I presume you are pretending not to remember the name of Mary Lou McDonald the SF Euro candidate. Neither Mary Lour nor Ivana are yuppies but I have a strong feeling YOU are! Yes a yuppie Fianna Failer of the Royston Brady type. You attack everyone on the Left for not being pro-worker and don't mention anything about the cosnervative parties? Get a grip. You are not fooling anyone in your attempt to cause friction on the Left in advance of the elections. Let all socialist voters make sure that they transfer between Left or socialist parties on June 11th and give this wanker his answer!

by extra-ordinary man Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:37

Ivana is polling well in affluent areas of South Dublin and is appealing to the well heeled blueshirt Mary Banotti voters. She will get a lot of support precisely because she is a yuppie. I and many other workers will not be voting for FG or a 'left' party such as labour which is working behing closed doors to have a dirty little deal with FG (election pact) and to go back into government with them once again.

by Makhno Thu Jun 03, 2004 15:11

Fair enuff. But who will you vote for? Are you goin to claim the FF are good for workers? Put your own cards on the table or are you another shit-stirrer or just 'Ordinary Man' in a new guise? And what about the ludicrous suggestion that Mary Lou McD or any Shinner is a yuppie? That's just laughable. I'm sorry but I have to say I detect FF desperation!!

by aunty middle class Thu Jun 03, 2004 15:33

I guess that hey would sound similiar to many of the indymedia scribes such as Makhno but they certainly dont sound working class. Do you have any idea of their annual incomes, you can bet that it is far in excess of the pittance most of their welfare recipient constituents recieve and far more than most working people recieve. Most of the comments above show just how middle class and out of touch they are.

by Joe Voter Thu Jun 03, 2004 15:46

"But who will you vote for? Are you goin to claim the FF are good for workers? "

Vote for Joe Higgins. much better for the working class than Prof Bacik and Mr. DeRossa.

by tallyman Thu Jun 03, 2004 15:57

Maybe Mary Lou should go around in a shell suit with big ear rings and acquire a Commitments accent?

I happen to know that she is far from being from a privileged background. Her accent is specific to the part of Dublin she grew up in and probably influenced by her education.

by Makhno Thu Jun 03, 2004 19:54

You are the tosspot who is out of touch. For a start I am not Middle Class. Secondly if you knew anything you would know that Mary Lou works full time for the Shinners who do not pay any more than the average industrial wage to their staff. Thirdly- you are contributing to Indymedia, so does that make you Middle Class? Fourthly- How do we know what your accent sounds like? I shudder to fucking think. You seem to believe ML is a Shinner who's into it for the money and career propects! Only a gobshite would follow that line- an out of touch, middle-class gobshite!

by Mao Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:54

I mean,
This Canteen Kavin is, loike, soo roight when he gushes about eveyone that disagrees with him being, loike, a FF/FG roight-winger (which I, loike, thought was a rugby position anyway).

Kavin, I mean, you just, loike, have to cop on to your, loike, own Socialist Party dogma. It's the pits. I mean, a chara.

by Jack White Mon Jun 07, 2004 01:36

Was Mary Lou not a Fianna Fáiler and left when she failed to get a nomination?

by Classless Mon Jun 07, 2004 02:45

What does it matter whether Mary Lou's working class, middle class or whatever? Can a person not have genuinely progressive beliefs unless they come from the 'right' class? This is bullshit, as loads of passionate left-wingers are from middle class backgrounds. Being comfortable economically does not mean you can't care about injustice and fight against it. Anyway no-one can help which class they come from, so please cut this shit out.