How to turn a 200,000 person protest into a 2,000 person protest

by ec Fri May 07, 2004 03:35

righteously anti-war righteously anti-protests at shannon

why not protest in shannon or dublin or wherever

you can see bonfires from the sky

by Dr. Faustus Fri May 07, 2004 04:13

You know, I was just thinking today how pathetic it is that the left can't organize effective mass protest against this war even when the majority of the public support them on the issue. Come on guys. Religious sectarianism, political sectarianism, class snobbery, inverted snobbery, it's all the same. We're all human beings. Liberty and justice are universal. Open discourse is the best way we've got of exploring them.

I'm no organizer, but you guys who are aren't half making a pathetic spectacle. We're all crying out to do something, here. And all we get are little in-groups of self-styled wannabe's farting around. What the heck is going on?

You might well ask what am I doing about it, why don't I organize something, but I think the criticism is valid nevertheless. Some of us are more followers than leaders, but we can still criticize. I'm beginning to suspect the political left of this country is as institutionally cliquish as the rest of its culture.

It's as if going to a demo is like going to church to hear the preacher man and have a sing song and belong to the faithfull. And everybody's got their own little church. I'm getting sick of that shit. You know, it really DOES NOT have to be that way.

But what the heck. I give up. Whatever.

by Ray Fri May 07, 2004 10:09

What is the purpose of protest?
To show that people don't support the Iraq war, or like George Bush?
The opinion polls already show that.
To show that people care enough about the issue to go on a demonstration?
Last year's march showed that.
Did they stop the war? Did they end Ireland's involvement in the war?
No, they didn't.
What makes you think another Dublin march would be any different?
Large marches are useful, but only as a first step. They bring people out, show them that political activity isn't strange or scary, and encourage them to do more.
But if the only thing you're encouraging them to do is go on _another_ march around Dublin, people are going to ask what the hell the point is. And they'd be right.
We've had the large march. Another one won't achieve anything more. Time to move on to something different - non violent direct action. Sure, you won't get 100,000 people out on a blockade, but you don't need that many for an effective blockade. Even 1 or 2,000 people (which last year's Shannon demonstrations could have had, if the anti-war movement had stood together) can be very effective.
So the question for the anti-war movement is - do you think its more important to make speeches to lots of people, and have Bertie co-opt you later, or should you try to _do_ something?

by observer Fri May 07, 2004 10:43

You sum it up succinctly.

However, you miss the point which is that the SWP and SP and the other ultra left groups don't care whether something is successful. They are only interested in using issues as the occasion for another pissing competition and to score points against each other and those of whom they are insanely jealous - SF, LP, Trades Council etc, etc.

They are just as happy with 2,000 people so long as they still manage to sell 20 of their pathetic 1930s throwback badly written "newspapers", and to recruit more fresh meat to have their brains frazzled.

by David Fri May 07, 2004 11:24

Large totally non confrontational demonstrations in dublin like february 15. It will b very difficult for the media to sabbotage something like that.

Large direct action attempt at shannon, the 'hardcore' activists try to blockade the airport or dromoland castle or something.
If all the "crusties" are in shannon then the media can scare story all they like and the more timid people will still be brave enough to take a stroll in dublin. Let the SWP/SP organise a march in Dublin

Everybody else should go to where the action is

by Papa Doc Fri May 07, 2004 11:30

Don't let the bastards get you down. You should join the PDs, we're a much more accomodating bunch (the perks are a lot better too).

by Ray Fri May 07, 2004 11:30

What is there to be gained?
Organise two demonstrations and you're splitting your energy. Organise two demonstrations and you're giving the media a perfect opening to describe one as peaceful and the other as violent.
If marching around Dublin again isn't going to achieve anything, why should we be encouraging people to do it? We want people to be in Shannon, and all of our energy should be put into getting people _there_.

by David Fri May 07, 2004 11:36

Lets be realistic. If February 15 had been planned for Shannon only 10% of people would have turned up.

I dont see the problem with having two protests.

We can still argue for everybody who wants to take more direct action to come to Shannon

by Ray Fri May 07, 2004 11:45

Last year, there was a march in Dublin and a non-violent direct action in Shannon.
How many of those organising for the Dublin march put any effort into organising for the Shannon protest? (and how many tried to undermine the protests in Shannon?)
How was the Shannon protest portrayed by the media?
The Dublin march could and should have been a jumping-off point for the Shannon protest, but it wasn't.
Now you want us to do the same thing as happened last year, but you expect the results to be completely different. And you call this being realistic?

(And 10% of the February 15th numbers would have had an enormous impact at Shannon. But we're not going to get that if we have the same divisions as last year.)

by David Fri May 07, 2004 12:03

The SWP are gonna organise seperately anyway and they are going to play the "good protestor/ bad protestor" card no matter what we do. I think it's too much to hope for that they might agree to co-operate with the Ambush campaign and even if they did, it would take a lot of faith to trust them not to turn around at the last minute and stab them in the back.

I would personally prefer a few thousand (hopefully upwards of 10 thousand) people who are prepared for a direct action instead of several times as many people who are all forced to leave at 6pm before Bush even arrives because their buses are being ordered back to dublin.

And no mattter what we do, most people will would be afraid to come to shannon. The security will be massive, there will be CIA people and the Irish Army with live ammunition. realistically the protestors will be in very little real danger, but it wont stop the newspapers scaring people from coming out.

I would prefer everybody who hates bush to come out and make their voices be heard whether thats in dublin or cork or galway or shannon, and i would hope that a lot of people would be prepared to do something more direct in shannon (or dromoland)

by Ray Fri May 07, 2004 12:13

If the SWP are going to organise separately, the solution is simple. Ignore them. Don't let them set the agenda. Just because they want to organise a march in Dublin, doesn't mean that we have to. The rest of us should stay focussed on Shannon. If we do that, if AmBush, and AntiWar Ireland, and GNAW and everyone else says that they will be protesting peacefully in Shannon, if the celebrity endorsements and sympathetic journos and famous names are brought on-side for _Shannon_, not Dublin, then it makes it much harder for the media to say Dublin good, Shannon bad.

A Shannon protest won't be as big. Geography alone guarantees that, and whatever media panic there is will also reduce the numbers. But the point of protest is not to get some arbitrary number of people out on the streets, its to achieve something. Getting a few thousand people to Shannon will achieve more than rerunning February 15th. And if we try to have both we won't get either.

by Joe Fri May 07, 2004 12:23

Why not have the Dublin march a fortnight or at least a week before the Bush visit march. That way it could be used to encourage/sell tickets for the Shannon march but would be far enough from it not to take any numbers from it. Likewise regional marches in the other major cities could make sense.

Given the divides in the anti-war movement such marches should not focus on speeches but on marching with maybe multiple starting and end points. This is the more usual pattern outside of Ireland and Britain and would be a solution to those boring two hours of hearing the same characters saying the same things they did last time.

The key thing is to get as many too Shannon for the period when Bush is here. If a few thousand are willing to march on the (not very unpopular) EU summitt despite all sorts of insane threats from the government then it should be possible to get a few times that number down to Shannon for the deeply unpopular Bush visit.

Some could march and some could take more militant action, one lesson from Saturday was that the AEIP march drew off a lot of police resources that could have otherwise been deployed to stop the liberation of Fitzwilliam square etc. So not everyone in Shannon has to be prepared to take action to play a part.

by David Fri May 07, 2004 12:26

I was never suggesting that GNAW or Anti-War Ireland should organise two protests or anything. i think we should all focus on getting people down to shannon specifically for peaceful direct action, I was just saying that it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if there were also protests in Dublin attended by people who would have no intention of travelling to Shannon. And if the SWP want to organise that, then let them do it.
I think Shannon should definitely be the focus and trying to get as effective an action as possible, but it wouldnt hurt to have more mass events elsewhere, even if its just so we can claim to have a renewed mandate from the irish people to oppose Bush's visit. (not that one is necessary)

by tom Fri May 07, 2004 16:08

While I agree with some of your points , I find the tone of your list of suggestions at odds with what you're actually saying. Take your last ironic point .
-Don't listen to anyone who's opinion you disagree with!!! Ever.!!!!!!!!
That's very good -a call for toleration .
And yet you say in your first point that to be anti EU is to be "hair brained".
And then you talk about "squirrely" marxist groups and "smelly hair dyed unemployable knobs" .Your use of exclamation marks comes across as somebody using a loud hailer. Or somebody shouting to make a point
Anyone who has ever tried to organize a demonstration can tell you that you have to make compromises to get numbers out ,talk nicely to people you disagree with - things like that .
What you said about the potential for huge numbers is right ,but ,if people want to go to Shannon and they're willing to organize to go there , what harm? For others going there will mean time off work or child care problems .For some people it's more important to raise the issues raised by the US military occupation of Shannon with people where they live or work than to actually go to the airport - issues like whether any prisoners bound for the torture camps of Guatanamo have passed through Shannon.
Finally, I often thought that the centralization of the IAWM gave it a lobsided , Dublinocentric (sorry !) orientation that fed into the ancient Dublin jackeen versus Culshie antipathy. I say Good luck to anyone , anywhere who does anything to oppose this war criminal's visit to Ireland .

by anne bonny Fri May 07, 2004 16:26

amBush2004! and AWI aren't claiming to represent you, and so aren't obliged to do anything you say.

and faustius: asking anarchists to lead you shows, to say the least, a misunderstanding of our ideas, and asking trots to lead you displays some sick masochism.

by anne bonny Fri May 07, 2004 16:41

but the majority of irish people don't live in Dublin City,

but we should make them travel there anyway?

To a location of very little relevance to the issue?

On the other side of the country from where Bush, Blair, Berlusconi, Bertie (i like alliteration) will be?

I repeat: shut the fuck up

by David C. Fri May 07, 2004 21:17

Look at the margin by which your local TD won his/her seat in the last election. Divide that number by two. If you can show that the resulting number of people in your constituency can be convinced to change their vote based on the anti-war issue then you have your TD's full attention and you have the governments full attention. That's all it takes. This IS a free country. Protests with broad support do affect policy.

The march in February 2003 had a HUGE impact. Primarily, it forced Bertie and his government to have to HIDE their support to the Americans on the Iraq war. The American pressure was still greater in the end, but the protest put Bertie in a spot. More protests would increase that pressure. 200,000 people marching against the war and against Bush would change government policy and might end US military use of Shannon.

Dublin is the population center of Ireland. It is also the cultural and intellectual center of Ireland. It is the easiest place for the most people to get to. A protest in Shannon is fine, but if I'm one of the 2 million people who live within 50 miles of Dublin then what can I do? There are no hotel rooms left anywhere near Shannon and, like most people, I just don't camp in fields. Should I wander up and down O'Connell street with a sign on my own? Tell me.

AmBush2004 and AWI are certainly claiming to represent me. I am against the war in Iraq and I am against the use of Shannon by the US military. These groups have chosen to represent that cause. They therefore have a responsibility to represent that cause effectively.

My advice: Think like an ordinary person. Don't think like an activist. There are many, many more ordinary people in Ireland than activists, and most ordinary people frankly don't have much time for activists.

by as do many other mothers Fri May 07, 2004 21:31

in Dublin and a series of protests at shannon at the same time.

groups saying their option is 'better' or 'more right on' should stop playing clique politics and give the nation every opportunity to speak.

How about bonfires at traditional sites countrywide on night of Bush Arrival?

Or printing up a million rainbow 'suiochain' flags?

Or a call on voters to make clear at the doorsteps they will only support candidates in euro elections whose parties are in favour of immediate US withdrawal from Shannon.

Anything just so that everyone who wants to make a protest is given an easy clearly expressed and safe as they define it way to do so.

No Luke Skywalkers needed. that is what goes on in movies.

last time out the biggest success came when all factions were working in tandem around the peace camp and dublin AT THE SAME TIME.

David C. is generally criticising the networks that DID mount a challenge to US use of Shannon a year ago effectively. Hopefully he's wrong about them and they still know how to do it. People are disgusted at the wilful destruction of Iraq - and they feel they were right last year. A recipe for success with these protests and a bad dream for the shifty Government that lied consistently about what was going on at Shannon in the runup to the war.

by David C. Fri May 07, 2004 21:58

I too hope that I am wrong about how effective these groups can be. The AWI bulletin posted last night is a positive sign - it is more inclusive and tolerant than I've seen in the past. The AmBush people still have an anti-UN. anti-EU, anti-reality diatribe on their website though.

Some more suggestions:

A national 1-minute stoppage at noon on Friday, June 25th when everyone stops - drivers in cars, students and teachers, employees, pedestrians on the street, etc.

A simple petition against Bush, his war and his use of Shannon

Print and distribute 10,000 of signs with the simple image of the hooded Iraq prisoner with wires attached to his fingers (a GREAT symbol of the new America)

by Paddy Wagon Sat May 08, 2004 10:50

to mention the spinning of the "Agent Provocateur" line. Y'know the one - up there with the grassy knoll theorists and the Elvis sightings.

by socialist Sat May 08, 2004 18:32

I am a socialist and am not going to say which party but I hate smelly tree hugging, tie dye wearing, hippies on protests too.

People shoould use their wages to invest in clothes that don't look like they are five years old and should get their (men) haircut every six weeks at least and women should have it done about every six weeks also.

by hs - sp Sat May 08, 2004 18:39

Let's see which socialist party has no long haired hippie types in it? Answers on a postcard to "expel socialist protester competition" first prize a free trip to the barber followed with a new suit. (i bet he's one of those anarchist chemical bombers myself )

by David C. Sat May 08, 2004 21:54

OK. Point taken. I may have been a little out of line there. I was trying to say that there are precious few examples of 'ordinary' people at these protests. Imagine if only people who dressed like fashion models or like investment bankers went on protests. Would you feel comfortable participating? Probably not. Just make everyone welcome - that was my point.

(My apologies to hippy-dressers - its a great look if you can pull it off)

by Phuq Hedd Sat May 08, 2004 22:08

QUOTE: Several polls have shown that a solid majority of Irish people oppose the occupation of Iraq by the United States and oppose the use of Shannon airport by the US military. Over 100,000 Irish people protested against this war in February 2003 in Dublin, and Irish people are even more opposed to it now.
ANSWER: OK, so it's plain for all to see that the majority of Irish people are against the use of Shannon by your own evidence. So now you want more evidence?

QUOTE: It is obvious that with a little organization and planning an enormous protest of Bush's visit to Ireland could be made, involving as many as 200,000 Irish people. This would have a significant impact on Irish and US policy, on the coming US election and on the continuation of the war in Iraq.
ANSWER: It's not obvious at all! There were _millions_ of people marching across the USA, there has been _huge_ pressure on politicians, yet it still goes on. What exactly is your model of social change? Give me one single example of an elite changing its behaviour without at least the threat of violence? I've brought this point up with you before and you've consistently refused to address it. Until you can do so your claims of "obviousness" are just windy assertions.

QUOTE: How can this protest be avoided? How can Irish people be persuaded to stay home? How can we ensure that any action is as ineffectual and minimal as possible?
ANSWER: Well you could spend your time attacking the people that are actually going out and protesting. You could conjure up a fantasy army of 200,000 people who won't do anything except stand in the street for a couple of hours and then go home and cry into their beer because the government ignored them. You could attack people that are actually doing something instead of going and doing it yourself. According to your beliefs all that's needed is that you hook up with one of the vast number of people that's just waiting to go and stand somewhere. It should be an avalanche. Go for it. Just don't waste time attacking us - you could be making real change now instead of wasting time posting on indymedia with people that think you're a whiny, incoherent, spiteful windbag with an unrealistic model of reality.

QUOTE: Here are some suggestions:
ANSWER: Here's a suggestion for you child: if you're trying to pretend to be sincere about how to improve protests don't slap up a post that consists mainly of insults.

QUOTE: -Don't listen to anyone who's opinion you disagree with!!! Ever.!!!!!!!!
ANSWER: Oh please! We've listened to your rants several times now. Just because we disagree with you doesn't mean we're not listening.
Got!!!! it?????!!!!!!! That's!!!!!!!! Good!!!!!!


QUOTE: Huge protests have a huge impact...tiny protests have a tiny impact
ANSWER: Tell it to Rosa Parks (probably one of your icons). Rosa should have waited until she could organise 2 million people to sit in the bus with her.

QUOTE: Look at the margin by which your local TD won his/her seat in the last election. Divide that number by two. If you can show that the resulting number of people in your constituency can be convinced to change their vote based on the anti-war issue then you have your TD's full attention and you have the governments full attention. That's all it takes.
ANSWER: And why do you have to have a protest to show that when you yourself point out that opinion polls reflect this already? Do you think politicians are unaware of these opinion polls?

QUOTE: This IS a free country.
ANSWER: That's nearly an empty statement. Why don't you wrap yourself in a flag while you're at it.

QUOTE: Protests with broad support do affect policy.
ANSWER: They can do, but they're not the only way. Now I'd like a list of protests which have affected government policy. I'd wager in advance that protests on peripheral issues can affect some decisions (e.g. Carnsore Point) but that on really important things (like violating our neutrality to stay in good with the US, or having referenda again and again so that our leaders stay in good with the EU mandarins) then they're less effective because the government knows they're tokenistic objections and most people are not willing to really challenge power. They still ascribe to the notion that "it's a free country".

QUOTE: The march in February 2003 had a HUGE impact. Primarily, it forced Bertie and his government to have to HIDE their support to the Americans on the Iraq war.
ANSWER: How was it hidden? Everyone knows and knew that planes were going through Shannon.

QUOTE: 200,000 people marching against the war and against Bush would change government policy and might end US military use of Shannon.
ANSWER: Not if those people are only going to march and do nothing else. Marching is effectively a threat, an indication of dissatisfaction. Threats become useless when they're used again and again and never backed up.

QUOTE: Dublin is the population center of Ireland.
ANSWER: Most people don't live in Dublin. Again you make meaningless grand statements.

QUOTE: It is also the cultural and intellectual center of Ireland.
ANSWER: According to some grand statistical survey of the intellects of Irish people no doubt?

QUOTE: It is the easiest place for the most people to get to. A protest in Shannon is fine, but if I'm one of the 2 million people who live within 50 miles of Dublin then what can I do? There are no hotel rooms left anywhere near Shannon and, like most people, I just don't camp in fields.
ANSWER: You could get up early, drive down, take part in a mass invasion of the airport. That'd send a

QUOTE: Should I wander up and down O'Connell street with a sign on my own? Tell me.
ANSWER: Do whatever you want to do that doesn't involve knocking other people that _are_ doing something.

QUOTE: AmBush2004 and AWI are certainly claiming to represent me.
ANSWER: Citation please or else shut up.

QUOTE: My advice: Think like an ordinary person. Don't think like an activist. There are many, many more ordinary people in Ireland than activists, and most ordinary people frankly don't have much time for activists.
ANSWER: Ordinary people are activists. The only thing that distinguishes them is that they do something.

SUMMARY: You're not doing anything. If you want to build for a 1-minute stoppage or whatever then get together with other people that think like you and do it for God's sake. But stop whining and insulting those that don't agree with you and do more than just talk. According to the beliefs that you've stated you ought to find it very easy to hook up with the "majority" of "ordinary" people that share your views. Don't waste your time on us.

by Lone Gunman Sat May 08, 2004 22:48

The first thing on any new Irish organizations agenda is the split. That is one of the big problems of both the extreme left and right in ireland is both sides have too many Indians trying to be the big cheifs.[Or in PC speak too many native Americans wishing to be the tribal leader of their oppressed tribe.]
Hate to say this folks ,but until you lot start getting yourselves organised into somthing coherent and unified,you will be just considerd a joke who occasionaly can damage an odd aircraft,trespass on airport property,and make fools of yourselves in general.A fine example of this was Dublin May1st.Plenty of planning ,organisation,etc and at the first sign of aggro.You are all either giving peace signs,attempting to take on the riot cops or squabbling with agent provocetuers in the crowd.Quite underwhelming for us onlookers.
Got to get your shit together folks,or nothing intresting will happen when Dubya arrives.

BTW,please dont bother coming to Shannon!We have enough hassle down here with gaurds and fed gov types hassling us with security procedures for Dubyas visit ,and trying to hold onto our jobs in evil American companies who are getting jittery about Shannon and its protests.And really dont need Dub protestors bothering us any further.Go and protest in O Connell st Dublin.You are doing us bog hoping culchies no favours.To Wit PROTESTORS ARE NOT WELCOME IN SHANNON ANYMORE. Go home,feck off,stay away.PLEASE!!!!!

by Drbinoche Mon May 10, 2004 00:36

Id be careful there David, if you continue with this sort of behaviour they'll start insisting that you, LG and myself are all the same person. That seems to be something they enjoy doing anytime more than one person disagrees with em.

I liked the piece, it was good and it brought up some good ideas and some good points. Alot of the ideas being posted for the AmBush thingy are good. The ones asking for Violence are as usual pointless, I guarantee if there is any violence, whether it be throwing cans at a Garda or tearing down a fence, the papers will have a field day, the perpetrators will get a nice tidy jail sentence, and you will alienate more people to the group. My dear Phuq I see is as usual making very little sense and talking out their ass. I don't see you doing anything yourself Phuq, when are you going to shoot down a damn Yankee plane with your homemade SAM.

I think the fliers idea is good. I think seperating the protest groups is both good and bad. Do you really wanna seperate your forces, but it is good coz it gives people an option and it doubles your exposure in the paper. Insisting that the politicians do something might get you nowhere, but at least you'll make your point heard again. Drill it into their heads that their election is dependent on them delivering the goods for once. Get alot more people involved, get young people, get babies, get old people, Hippies, doctors, lawyers, bar stewards get em all involved, the more the merrier.

I wish you guys good luck and I do hope you get something different but good done when Bushy is over.

But I will stress this point again and again, do NOT fuck with the operation of the airport or attempt to 'invade it', you will just be giving the papers more stuff and alienate some decent people.

by anne bonny Mon May 10, 2004 16:53

Really? As someone who's been involved in amBush, this is news to me. I'm only claiming to demonstrate MY opposition to the war, and asking others to do the same. As an anarchist, I'd hardly be trying to represent anyone else you twat.

[DISCLAIMER: before the trolls get to work, not everyone involved in ambush is an anarchist. I'm speaking for myself.]

"Dublin is...the cultural and intellectual center of Ireland."

Oh yea i forgot the rest of us were thick uncultured rednecks. Tikk as shoite we are. Begorrah and begob

by juan pablo Mon May 10, 2004 20:45

is this protest in shannon being organised as a march against the socialist workers party or george bush?

by David C. Tue May 11, 2004 23:33

Although AWI and Ambush may actually BE merely a bunch of individuals demonstrating on their own, they both do, in fact, claim to speak for all those in Ireland who are against the war in Iraq. They incur responsibility by setting themselves up as a focus of antiwar opposition. A good analogy is the act of stopping to help at a car accident. Once you have stopped then you are obliged to help, because motorists who otherwise might have stopped will now pass by, as they can see that someone else is helping. If you then force the victim to agree to a bunch of flaky nonsense or is you are criminally incompetent in your help, then you are responsible. AWI and Ambush OWE IT TO THE IRISH PEOPLE to provide an anti-war focus that is not contaminated by a heap of made-up anti-reality nonsense issues.

If AWI and Ambush were merely against the war then they would be harmless at worst, but by binding a truck-load of flaky anti-everything issues with opposition to the war they POLLUTE broad opposition to the war. Like it or not, AWI and Ambush have CHOSEN to represent war opposition in Ireland, and so far they have made damn sure that it remains a flaky, fringe cause for nutters. Well done.

Regarding Phuq Hedd's suggestion that the 'elite' won't change its behaviour without at least the threat of violence - I think you're being a little dramatic and I suspect that the real desire behind this view is the excitement of violence rather than the prospect of change. If people don't like the 'elite's' behaviour then they can vote for a different 'elite'. Like it or not, most people are *generally* happy with their government. They like the prosperity of a FF/PD/FG/LAB governing 'elite' even more than they hate the policy of that government towards the war. Compromise is a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful thing. The only people who get *everything* what they want are dictators.

by Phuq Hedd Wed May 12, 2004 01:19

It confirms my suspicions that you're just a troll. Either provide evidence of some sort to back up your assertions or else stop making grandiose claims.

Your post is insulting, is vapid beyond belief and is also, if I'm not mistaken, a repost.

Suggesting that I want violence is but a continuation of your tactic of assertion without proof. It's as convincing as the rest of the dribble that you've written.

Show me example of major societal change that didn't involve violence or the threat of violence or else stop mouthing off.

by David C. Wed May 12, 2004 02:34

The collapse of the dictatorial "we-know-whats-good-for-you" socialism of the USSR/Warsaw pact in 1989, perhaps?

Just a guess...

by Doc Wed May 12, 2004 03:24

I'd say Mr. Ceauscescu's illusions in the non-violent nature of his opponents vanished fairly rapidly when he made his final appearance on TV.

by anne bonny Wed May 12, 2004 16:23

by that logic, when right-wing boneheads organise aprotest against the war or globalisation they're representing me, despite the fact that they oppose these things for the completely different reasons than me. if you hold beliefs which differ from ours, go organise your own event. why would we change our beliefs to suit you?

i'm not gonna represent you. get off your ass and do something. if you had used the time you wasted posting your rubbish here to organise a planning meeting the wonderful accessible protest you want to see could be under way

but no, that would require effort. it's much easier to do nothing and then bitch and moan when, amazingly, things don't go your way

by David C. Wed May 12, 2004 20:18

If right-wing neo-nazi boneheads organised most of the protests against the war in Ireland then 'anti-war' would become a neo-nazi cause and anyone who is appalled at neo-nazism (i.e. almost everyone) would rather drink motor oil than join an anti-war protest. Same thing with angry anti-everything lefty flakes.

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I'm predicting a turnout in Shannon of about 2000 people, with absolutely no effect on anything. I hope to heaven I'm wrong, but that's what I'm predicting. If I'm wrong then I will eat humble pie.

BTW - You have absolutely no idea what I do or don't do.

by anne bonny Wed May 12, 2004 21:36

right-wing boneheads were quite active all over Europe opposing the war, claiming that it was about Israel, Zionist blah blah blah...

They have also been quite active in opposing globalisation, with American neo-nazis celebrating the N30 protestors in Seattle, attempting to join in with the left at summits such as the G8 in Evian, black blocs appearing in nazi marches across Europe....

And yet, nobody thinks they actually represent us. Why? Because we have different opinions.

Similarly, even though we're opposing something you're also against, if your opinions differ from those expressed by AWI and the amBush2004 initiative, then obviously we don't represent you.

Let me simplify it for you:

I'm against rape

I'm sure Bertie is also against rape

And yet, I don't assume that he actually represents me.

Mind-blowing, isn't it?

If we HAVE hijacked the anti-war movement, then surely you should stop us by taking matters into your own hands

"BTW - You have absolutely no idea what I do or don't do."

Well then, tell me. I've already told you I'm involved in amBush.

You may be right. There might be a shit turnout for the Bush visit. But that's not the fault of the people who are at least TRYING to build a mass protest. It's the fault of those who aren't. I'd be delighted if people like you had got involved and showed us the error of our ways, and worked to correct them. Instead, right from the outset, all we got was trolls telling us it would be shit, and claiming we were hijacking other people's work.

by anne bonny Wed May 12, 2004 21:42

Which had more effect: 100,000 people on the streets of Dublin, or the actions of 6 people in Shannon (CW5 + Mary Kelly)?

by david Fri May 14, 2004 12:17

Whatever yuo think of him, he was the first person to perform a direct action on an American plane in Ireland.

And the hard work of the peace camp activists and the plane spotters that have contributed more than anybody else (imo) to the Anti-War movement.

Individuals and small groups can have a huge impact.

by . Thu Jun 03, 2004 02:55

I couldn't disagree more. The anti-war movement needs as many people's creativitity, input and initiative as possible. Seeing somebody else already making efforts is no excuse not to get involved. The car analogy is a bad one, because this car is one that needs all the help it can get.

To sum up, if you don't like something, stop whining and organise with other like-minded people to do it better yourself.

Sadly, your ridiculous car analogy just seems like a convenient way for you to let yourself off the hook doing this :)