The long dark night of Fianna Fail's tyranny

by John McDermott - Remove Fianna Fail Party(&re-elect a monkey!) Fri Apr 23, 2004 23:21

In reply to Fianna Fail,s 'Statistical Spacer',John;-Here are more statistics for ‘Fianna Fail John’s files;
The Trinity College economist, who was a member of the Brennan Commission on health service reform, was scathing about the lack of systems to develop cost consciousness and lack of incentives to manage costs effectively. "The cost of the health service - at €9 billion - is up 125 per cent over six years, and the numbers employed have jumped by 47 per cent," said Barrett.

"Yet there has only been a 4 per cent increase in in-patient discharges over the same period."

As for our technological marvels;
Recently… an unruly ‘ Rebel Baron’ from I.B.E.C’s Telecommunications & Internet Federation(T.I.F.) has indicated that the current raft of stealth taxes on the business community as well as the domestic rubbish disposing housewife- will mean that broadband will be prohibitively expensive when eventually installed in Dublin-and may never happen in the rest of the country.!


Charlie McCreevy has the brass balls( effrontery) to stand before the Dail and enunciated his alarm at the 100 million odd Euros cost of the various tribunals of enquiry into the corruption of his former associates and fellow T.D’s in government.
If he and his comrades were honorable men they would resign from government and allow an emergency caretaker coalition of the lack-lustre opposition to at least try and redeem the nations dignity,in this,..our country’s darkest hour .
Stroke politics,is pre-eminent.The people have been bought with their own money.
Liam Lawlor, and his like can sit there sit day after day,like mocking court jesters,enjoying the expensive charade that they have summoned up, to milk the decent taxpayers of this country dry ,over and over again.
The Princes of Fianna Fail watch from the sidelines,- happy to deflect the anger of the people ,down the rambling by-ways and cul-de-sac of Dublin Castle.
We live in an age once more, where, as far as Politics is concerned;
‘The best, have lost all hope,
and the worst, are filled with passionate intensity’


As for Fianna Fail,s wonderful housing contribution- to the( poor?) rich irish farmers;
The one-off housing explosion now accounts for one-third of all houses being built, creating 400,000 septic tanks, many of them polluting water supplies.
Of the 1,280,000 dwellings in the state, 400,000 are in rural areas.
This often means they have to rely on septic tanks which are frequently linked to water contamination.

by John Fri Apr 23, 2004 23:12

That was an excellent entry by Disenchanted. Its good to discuss these things with someone intelligent, unlike a couple of the earlier respondents to my initial comment. I'll try to answer the points made.

POVERTY
--------------

Most of the figures you give relate to 1997 or even earlier. That is before the Celtic Tiger took off, and incidentally when the Rainbow Coalition was in power. Of the figures you give that are more up-to-date, the majority of them (I agree not all) show an improvement in poverty levels since the days of the Rainbow Coalition. The most serious measure of poverty, consistent poverty, on your own figures shows a dramatic improvement from 14.5% to 5%. Wouldn't you agree that this is pretty sensational? And that is only up to 2001. I believe that when figures are eventually released for 2004 they will show a further decline. This trend is supported by the ESRI figures I gave earlier.

I don't deny that Ireland is a less equal society than many in continental EU. But, that was the case just as much before the present FF/PD Government came to power.
But, inequality is not identical to poverty. Supporters of the free enterprise system have never claimed that it leads to greater equality. They argue that it results in such an increase in overall economic output, compared with more socialist systems, that, even if the working-class gets a smaller proportion of that output than in a more socialist country, then they are still better off. I'd argue that the experience of Ireland as compared with continental EU over the past decade supports this. Compare Ireland and Germany. I don't deny for a second that there is more inequality in Ireland. But, in Ireland the average weekly wage has increased by 50% in REAL terms since the Celtic Tiger took off. In Germany the average weekly wage has increased by less than 10% in REAL terms over the same period. Plus, of course, there is the important fact that unemployment in Ireland is now less than half that in Germany, whereas a decade ago the reverse was true. That is why measures of relative poverty, as distinct from absolute poverty, are dangerous. Relative poverty is measured against an average that moves up in acordance with the growth of the economy. Take the following exampes - these are hypothetical figures used to illustrate the point, they are not the actual figures for Ireland or any other country:

country A's economy grows by 100% over a
10-year period - suppose the incomes of
the bottom half increase 75% and those of
the top half increase 125%

country B's economy grows by 20% over a
10-year period - suppose the incomes of
the bottom half increase 35% and those of
the top half increase 5%

According to the poverty definitions conventionally used, relative poverty increased in country A and decreased in country B. But, absolute poverty decreased much more in country A. I know which one I'd rather be in. For country A, read Ireland over the past decade. For country B, read many of the countries of continental EU over the past decade.

OTHER POINTS
-----------------------

To answer Disenchanted's other points:

Not particularily a supporter of FF. Have never voted in the ROI because have never lived there. Lived in Tyrone and Belfast until 1976, then moved to Cardiff, Wales. Prior to the last general election in 2002, if I had been living in the ROI, I would have voted FG, primarily because I disagreed with FF's ambiguity at that time in regard to the IRA and nationalism generally. But, would have voted FF in 2002 because of their economic record and abandonment of extreme nationalism. Would be happy to vote FG in future if they pursued roughly the same free market policies as FF. In fact, until a few years ago FG would have been considered more right-wing and more pro-free market than FF.

Definitely not wealthy. In fact a humble computer programmer working in a university research dept. Own no property but my own appartment. So, definitely not a fat cat. But, living outside the ROI I can see clearly the great progress made there in recent years, particularily in comparison with NI and Wales, and other parts of the UK. Take a few examples:

(1) Take roads. Growing up as a nationalist in NI in the late 50s and 60s, it was an embarassment crossing the border and seeing how bad the roads were, in comparison to those in NI. NI had motorways in 1964. Especially embarassing if travelling with a unionist friend (yes it did happen in those halycon days before PIRA). Today, the opposite is increasingly the case. The worst stretches of the Belfast-Dublin road are now mainly in NI. The roads in Donegal now are superior to those in Tyrone and improving all the time. In the 1960s Tyrone had first-class main roads while Donegal had useless country lanes. Agreed, the motorway building program in the ROI only got under way about 1998. But, it has allready caught up with NI and I have no doubt that within 5 years, any embarassment at the state of the roads will be when unionists compare the NI roads with those in the ROI.

(2) Take education. When a student at Queens University Belfast in the late 1960s, we were so much better off than students in the ROI. We got grants and paid no fees. Students in the ROI got no grants and paid fees. I never had to pay a penny for my university education. And UCD was a dump compared with Queens. Today, this is largely reversed. In the UK students no longer get grants and pay huge fees, while in the ROI some grants are paid (I agree not enough). And UCD is now far superior in its facilities to Queens.

(3) Take housing. Some people in the ROI have a persecution complex about this. The fact is that average house prices in the UK are almost exactly the same as in the ROI. I said 'average', of course they vary between cities within the ROI and within the UK. House prices in Cardiff are somewhat lower than Dublin but more expensive than in Cork.
But, the big difference is that mortgage rates in the ROI are much lower than in the UK.
My monthly repayments in Cardiff are higher than for a similar appartment in Dublin, even though it costs about 15% less, because the mortgage rate is much higher. Another big difference is the quality of the housing stock. Ireland is building new houses at 6 times the rate of Wales. House-building in Wales is so low that the housing stock is crumbling. It has been estimated that at current building levels it will take 150 years for the housing stock to be replaced in Wales. That means in 20 years Wales housing will be mostly slums, as the buildings deteriorate. Its a big issue here. In Ireland, in contrast, the rate of house building is so high, it will take only 20 years to replace the entire housing stock, so the quality is improving all the time. If the current rates of house building in Ireland and Wales continue at their present levels, then in 20 years visitors from Ireland to Wales will think they are entering a third-world country, if they judge it by the housing stock.

(4) Take the Bin Tax. They are making a song and dance about this in the ROI because they have to pay around 100 euros a year. In Cardiff the Labour Council charges 1250 euros a year in Council Tax, which has to be paid even by those earning less than average incomes.

(5) Take hospital waiting-lists. Anyone reading the ROI media would think these didn't exist outside Ireland. They do. In ROI the hospital waiting-list is 28,000. That's deplorable, it should be rectified asap. But, in Wales which has a smaller population than ROI, the hospital waiting-list is 80,000. What is even more sickening is the hypocrisy of Sinn Fein. They are running around portraying Michael Martin as a monster because 28,000 are on the hospital waiting-list. When Sinn Fein, in the person of Barbara DeBruin, were running the NI health service, the waiting-list was 59,000, 4.5 times that in ROI wen adjusted for population. Barbara DeBruin tried to close the only hospital in Omagh, my home town. Michael Martin has never tried to close a hospital in a town as large as Omagh.

To answer your final point, Disenchanted, only 9 people owning all that building land does seem excessive. I don't believe in nationalisation of it. Perhaps put a limit on the amount any one individual can own.

Thank you, Disenchanted, its a pleasure to discuss things with you. That's my final contribution for now. Off to Pembrokeshire for the weekend.

by jeff Fri Apr 23, 2004 22:39

He made an effort at intelligent debate, and was not trolling. I'd say, though, that there is a danger that, despite the rise in gdp per head, etc, the fact alone that a near majorety of people will not be able to afford a home in the future is forboding news.

This is crazy for a country of just 4 million people. The Netherlands, a third the size of Ireland, has provided housing for the homeless, with a population of 16 million people.

Trickle down economics do not work in the longterm. A lot of people suffer.

by Disenchanted Fri Apr 23, 2004 19:56

The website below features more up-to-date facts (I think they'd take up too much space!):

http://www.cori.ie/justice/soc_issues/poverty.htm

by Disenchanted Fri Apr 23, 2004 19:50

John,

Some facts, for your perusal (acquired, in the great tradition of cut-and-paste intellectualism, from the Combat Poverty website):

• In 2001, 192,000 people (5% of the population) lived in consistent poverty
• Consistent poverty levels reduced from 14.5% in 1994 to 5% in 2001
• In 2001, more than 862,000 people (almost 22% of the population) lived on less than €164 per single person per week
• Relative income poverty levels increased from 15.6% in 1994 to 22% in 2001

(If a household falls below 70% of average or median income and also lacks at least one of the items in the basic deprivation list, it is said to experience consistent poverty.)

In 1997, 17% (approximately one in six) of Irish children we re in seve re or "c o n s i s t e n t" p overty (i.e. in households both below 60% of average household income a n d
experiencing basic depriva t i o n. The rate in 1994 was 24%.
Recently published figures, suggest that this had dropped to one in eight by 1998.5
About one in four Irish children (26%) we re in households below half average income
in 1997. This was exactly the same as a decade pre v i o u s l y, in 1987.
Mo re than half the children "consistently poor" in 1997 we re in households seriously
a ffected by unemployment. Almost 40% of children living in households below half
a verage income we re living in households headed by an unemployed person.
C h i l d ren of lone parents and children in larger families (3+ children) are more likely to
experience pove r t y.
In 1997, 17% of children were "consistently poor", compared to 10% of adults. Ove r a l l ,
c h i l d ren carry a greater risk -up to 1.25 times greater - of being in income pove r t y
than adults.
Ireland has one of the highest rates of child poverty in the Eu ropean Union. In the
mid 1990s many EU member countries had child poverty rates which we re either half
the Irish rate or below that.
Child poverty rates in the world's wealthiest nations vary from under 3% to over 25%.
Ireland, with a rate of 16 . 8%, ranks 6th highest on a list of 23 OECD countries.


Just a final point. I know you put great store in the fact that there has been phenomenal house-building in recent years, but consider the fact that nine people own 80 per cent of the available land in Dublin, and a huge proportion of the new houses built. "We", the people, don't own them. A small minority of opportunists do. If they didn't, if we had proper administration of compulsory purchase orders, maybe people like you (may I venture that you're not amongst the multi-rich) and I might not spend most of our lives labouring to pay for a pile of bricks and mortar.

By the way,
Do you really support FF????!!!???

by John Fri Apr 23, 2004 18:36

I notice that none of the subsequent respondents to my earlier comment have challenged the figures I gave. They CAN'T because they are TRUE. They have to content
themselves with saying that the detailed figures I gave for economic growth, employment growth, unemployment, immigration, population growth, new house building, crime rate, road fatalities, hospital waiting-lists, mortality rates, LUAS and so on are somehow irrelevant to the condition of the common people. Claptrap! These things are the condition of the common people. But, let's look at some of the points raised.

POVERTY
--------------

I suggest you check the ESRI website, they have just done a report on poverty in Ireland.
I've cut and pasted their conclusions below.
Its on the home page of their website.

Households where NONE of the adults (of
working age 18-64) were working fell from
22% in 1994 to less than 14% in 2000.

The decline in work-poverty was particularly
strong among households with children. In
1994, 27% of children lived in jobless
households, this fell to 9% in 2000.

The rate of work-poor households in Ireland,
which was one of the highest in the EU in
1985, fell to the EU average by 2000.

Households where ALL the adults were in paid employment increased from 36% to 49% between 1997 and 2000.

Now, that doesn't look too bad a record to me.
And, don't say these figures are irrelevant to the condition of the common people.

WAGES
-----------

Real wages have risen faster in Ireland than in any other OECD country since 1997. In 2004 they are rising twice as fast as the EU average. So much so that the employers organisations are whining about it. But, they can't do anything about it because unemployment in Ireland is so much lower than in the rest of the EU that employees are in the driving seat. That's why car sales are twice as high in Ireland today as in 1996.
That's why sales of every luxury from colour tvs, freezers, dishwashers, washing-machines, DVD players, holidays in USA have gone through the roof. Who do you think is buying these if not the common people?

DEBT
--------

Private debt is rising in all countries. Its modern life. Private debt levels in Ireland are still below the EU average. Public debt in Ireland, as I said in earlier comment, is way
below the EU average.

SCOTLAND
-----------------

Comparing the performances of the Irish and Scottish economies in recent years is like comparing the performances of the Tyrone and Carlow Gaelic Football teams. Excuse my bias, I'm from Tyrone. Since 1997 GNP growth in Ireland has averaged 8%, in Scotland 2%. Don't say this is irrelevant. Its why Ireland is experiencing net immigration of 30,000 per year while Scotland is experiencing net emigration similar to what Ireland experienced in the 1980s. If the figures were reversed the Dublin City Ramblers and the Wolfe Tones would be top of the hit parade with dreadful songs about Irish emigration. Its also why child benefit in Ireland is now 30% higher than in Scotland (in 1997 it was 30% lower). Its why pensions in Ireland are now 40% higher than in Scotland. Its why Ireland is building 6 times as many houses as Scotland. Its why the population of Ireland is soaring and that of Scotland slumping. GDP and GNP per capita are now much higher in Ireland than in Scotland. These are the measures of economic development acknowledged worldwide. Therefore, to say that Scotland is developed and Ireland not is absurd drivel.

Its a good point about the motorways though.
I made it myself in my first comment. Yes, Ireland was late developing its motorway program. In 1997 there were virtually NONE. Today, however, under the FF/PD Government new motorways are opening every month. There is now a motorway from Dublin to almost the border (and soon right to the border). Alas, the road from the border to Belfast isn't as good. Soon, there will be motorways from Dublin to Galway, Limerick Cork, Wexford and Navan. I believe they are due for completion in 2007, just in time for the next election. They would have been finished much earlier, except the Green Party and crackpot environmentalists have delayed them for years, usually because some species of grass or a snail or two have been found to lie in the path of the motorway.

As for the drubbing the Left are going to hand out on June 11, this is typical pre-election bluster. They'se said it at every election since 1922. Never happens. They said it this time in 2002, and look what happened. Of course, the FF/PD vote will go down a few percent. Always happens to governing party in every mid-term election in every country. It means nothing for the next general election. In the UK, there will be a massive swing from Labour to the Conservatives on June 11. Again of no significance for the next general election. Likewise to Chirac's party in France and Schroeder's party in Germany. The drop in the FF/PD vote in Ireland will be small compared to that of other governing parties in Europe, whether of the Right or the Left. Even so, its not exactly going to be a triumph for the Left. In fact, I can predict the result now. The Right will get about 65% (FF,PD, FG and various loonies such as Justin Barrett), the Left will get about 35% (Labour, Green, SF and various loonies such as Richard Boyd Barrett - by the way, are they related?). That's maybe exaggerating the size of the Left vote in Ireland, as lots of people don't consider the Labour Party left-wing at all.

By the way, Paul O'Connell, if I was you, I'd ask for a refund, from your charm school, I mean.

by Disenchanted Fri Apr 23, 2004 14:58

I have to agree with my old comrade Paul's rebuttal of John's fawning reverence for the Soldiers of Destiny.

The mistake John makes is to assume that you can arbitrarily attach "national" economic growth to the actual conditions of the people inhabiting that nation. While there has, ostensibly, been huge national economic growth in the last decade, this has not translated into any such growth on the micro-scale for most of Ireland's inhabitants.

On the contrary, if John was not so ensconced in abstract figures, he might notice that we now have a third of the population of the 26 Counties and half the population of Dublin unable to afford a roof over their heads. Our standard of living (when I say our, I mean most Irish people, not the John Magniers and Denis O Briens) is far below that of fellow Europeans. There are more heroin addicts on the streets of the capital than ever before; a conservative estimate is 14,000. Our debt is rising, our wages aren't congruent with our needs, all-in-all we live in a country in which the gap is growing. Assuming that economic growth has benefitted everyone equally only serves to befog the economic conditions obtaining for most of the population.

by paul o'connell Fri Apr 23, 2004 14:35

somebody found the Fianna Fail website. Sad bastard really, lets get the verdict from the people on June 11th. Then they will tell you what they think. go down to areas in Tallaght and inner city and tell them how great they are doing. people that cant afford a house. tell them that its all wonderful. I notice you dont mention the tribunals as one of the great things we have got under the managment of Fianna Fail. The party is in for the kicking of a life time at these elections. So Would you ever fuck off and peddle your propaganda some where else. You are so out of tune with the people. you don't have a clue.

by Mike Fri Apr 23, 2004 14:31

And most radicals HERE suffer from the same delusions. They simply cannot comprehend that if "the people" don't choose as they wish them to choose then the fault is "outside" themsleves.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. Simply looking for reasons why we are failing. I'm sorry folks, but the reason we are making no imperssion (at all) is NOT that we are excluded from debates, that we don't control the media, etc. etc. Those are givens for any outside interests who have not managed to assembled enoguh support to BARGE their way to a seat at the table -- enough so that they cannot be safely ignored.

The "left" is failing because it has NOT managed to project a clear compelling vision of a "better world", has not convinced anybody but a miniscule choir. We will continue to fail until we learn to LISTEN to the people, until we stop acting and speaking like we know better than they "what their true interests are". You do NOT get people committed to support you by spouting the sort of nonsense that we tend to spout, when we treat each other as enemies, counter-revolutionary reactionaries because we differ on this or that fine point of "divine" doctrine.

It's very easy to tell what we are against. But what we are FOR? In simple terms, a clear vision? Please try to place yourself as "one of the people" and try to be honest -- would YOU then trust those trying to get you to fight for a pig in the poke like we tend to do?

by Idiot Fri Apr 23, 2004 14:08

'Compare that with socialist Scotland' 'In socialist Scotland they built the grand total of 12,000 new houses last year' Jack McConnell never struck me as a socialist and his New Labour/Liberal Democrat coalition is very far from socialist. Scotland has a city of beauty far surpassing anything in filth ridden Ireland. Dublin is a monstrosity and the regional towns are much worse. Rampant planning without thought for the future, Ireland also started out far behind Scotland which is a developed country, Ireland is not. You can drive Edinburgh Glasgow (a city of 3 million that has some of the best growth in the UK despite its sink estates) in 45 minutes on a motorway, heard that word before motorway.

by John Fri Apr 23, 2004 13:20

This guy, John McDermott, is completely bonkers. The FF/PD government that we have had since 1997 is one of the most successful governments in the history of the world, in any country at any time. I notice very few statistics in his diatribe to support the view of FF misrule. So, here are just a few statistics that show the opposite.

(1) Between 1997 and 2004, Ireland recorded the highest growth in GDP in the
developed world, twice the rate of the USA, 4 times the rate in the UK and 6 times the rate in the EU.

This translated into jobs big-time:

(2) The percentage increase in the number of people at work in Ireland since 1997 is the highest in the OECD, at 25%. No other country exceeds 10%. Even during the world recession of 2000-2003, the FF/PD record was superb. Between Dec 2000 and Dec 2003, the number of people at work in Ireland increased by 6%. No other country comes close. In the USA the number at work fell by 2% during the same period. If George Bush had achieved the same growth in employment between Dec 2000 and Dec 2003 that the FF/PD government have, he'd be 35% ahead in the polls.

And, as a result of this growth:

(3) In 1997 the unemployment rate in Ireland was 12%, the second highest in the OECD. Today it is 4.6%, the third lowest in the OECD. For the first time in recorded history the unemployment rate in Ireland is lower than in the UK or the USA.

And that is why:

(4) Since 1997 tens of thousands of former emigrants have come back to Ireland, plus tens of thousands of new immigrants from Eastern Europe and elsewhere. During the 7 years of this government, net immigration (I said immigration, not emigration) has been almost 200,000. In the past 3 years, net immigration to Ireland per capita has been the highest in the EU, and even higher than in the USA, the home of immigration.

And as a result of this immigration:

(5) In 1997 there were hardly any black or brown faces in Dublin. Now there are tens of thousands, and a GOOD thing too. It is the FF/PD government's economic success that has made Ireland a multi-cultural society. If the socialists had been in power Ireland would still be an all-white country, as they would have ruined the economy, and no immigrants would have come near the place.

and as well:

(6) Between 1997 and 2004 the population of Ireland increased by 10%, to bring it over 4 million for the first time since the Famine. No other EU country achieved population growth of more than 5% in that time. Compare that with socialist Scotland. There the population is falling at the same rate as in Ireland in the 1950s, due to continued mass emigration.
The Republic of Ireland alone is now set to overtake both Denmark and Scotland in population in the next 15 years. The population of the whole of Ireland has allready overtaken those two countries, whereas when Ireland joined the EU, it was much less. This is good news for Ireland's world cup chances, in both soccer and rugby.

And houses have been built for all these new people:

(7) In 1996, when Michael D. Higgins was the minister in charge, Ireland built 19,000 new houses. In 2003, when Martin Cullen was the minister in charge, Ireland built 70,000 new houses. That's an increase of almost 400%.
The rate of house-building in Ireland today is the highest ever recorded in the history of the world. Yes, true, the history of the world. Go check the figures for yourselves. Its 6 times that in the UK, 4 times that in the EU,and 3 times that in the USA. In socialist Scotland they built the grand total of 12,000 new houses last year. Compare that with the 70,000 in Ireland. You only have to compare drab dreary Glasgow, with its municipal socialism and hundreds of Ballymuns and hardly any private housing, with buoyant vibrant free-enterprise Dublin, where high-class private housing is springing up everywhere, in every nook and cranny, and Ballymun is being knocked down. That's the difference between FF/PD government and Labour government.

And its safer too:

(8) Thanks to the FF/PD Government's tough law and order policies crime in Ireland has fallen and is now the lowest in the EU. It is one-quarter the rate in the UK. In Denmark last year there were 500,000 crimes. In Ireland, with almost similar population, there were 100,000. Last week the figures for the first quarter of 2004 came out, they show yet another fall of 6%. And before any leftists deny that Ireland has a low crime rate under
the FF/PD Government, go look at the Sinn Fein website. You'll find them moaning that the tough law and order policies of this government are 'unnecessary because the crime rate is so low'.

Even on the roads, its safer now:

(9) In 1996 460 people died on Irish roads, one of the highest rates in Europe. In 2003 this was reduced to 340, one of the lowest rates in Europe. Its now safer on Irish roads than in most of Europe or the USA. Only the UK, Scandanavia and one or two others does better. The reason of course is the huge expansion of the motorway network, the safest form of road. In 1997 Ireland had only a few miles of motorway. It was pathetic! A complete embarassment. Now, under Seamus Brennan, new motorways are being opened every month. You can see them everywhere. Still a long way to go, of course. But, by the time the motorway network is complete, the rate of road deaths in Ireland will equal the lowest in the world. Its allready 75% there towards achieving that goal. Compare this with the Greeen Party whose leaders have openly admitted hoping that the Irish economy will collapse, so that the motorway program will be abandoned.

and you even live longer under FF/PD:

(10) In 1997 expenditure on the health services in Ireland was only 70% of the OECD average. As a result of the massive increase in the numbers working in the health services that the FF/PD government has brought about, expenditure on the health services in Ireland now exceeds the OECD average FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER.

This is reflected in lower hospital waiting-lists. Ireland is one of the few countries in the developed world where hospital waiting-lists are lower than a decade ago. And, what's more, they are far lower than in the socialised UK health service. Here are the figures for inpatient waiting-lists in the countries of the British Isles:

Rep. Ireland 28,130 (Jun 2003)

N. Ireland 54,257 (Sep 2003)
England 984,000 (Aug 2003)
Scotland 112,022 (Dec 2003)
Wales 77,252 (Jun 2003)

So, the waiting-lists in Ireland are less than one-quarter those in the UK, whose socialised health service the Labour Party wants to emulate in Ireland. Of course, an Irish health minister does hold the record for the longest hospital waiting-lists in the developed world. But, its not Michael Martin of FF, but Barbara DeBruin of Sinn Fein, when she was running the Northern Ireland health service up to Oct 2002

And the best news of all is that the increased health expenditure is now being reflected in much lower mortality rates. In 1995 there were 31,500 deaths in Ireland. In 2002, the latest year for which statistics are available, there were only 29,300, despite the 10% increase in population. That's a fall in the death rate from 8.6 to 7.5, an almost 12% fall. The number of deaths recorded in Ireland fell below 30,000 for the first time ever in 2001, despite the population reaching 4 million for the first time since the famine. The only sector of the economy to decline under the FF/PD Government is the undertaking business!!!

And the FF/PD government has put good health as its priority, regardless of any commercial pressures. Look at the smoking ban! Vigorously opposed by many, but Michael Martin went ahead with it. Compare that with the Labour Government in the UK, which allowed cigarette advertising to continue on Formula 1 motor-racing cars, after the body running that sport contributed £1 million pounds to the UK Labour Party.

And, money has been spent wisely.

(11) Compare the FF/PD record with that of the Labour Government in Scotland. In Scotland they are building a new Parliament building. It was originally supposed to cost 60million euros. Its now costing 650million euros. Thats the same amount almost that Ireland is spending on the Luas. Imagine if, instead of building the Luas, the FF/PD Government had spent the money on an extension to Leinster House. The Left and the media would have gone crazy. But, thats what the Labour Government in Scotland has done. Scotland gets a poxy new building for politicians while Ireland, for the same amount of money, gets one of the most-modern transportation systems in the world.

And, there's more to come:

(12) Yes, the Luas is imminent. The Dublin Port Tunnel will open in a year. Hundreds of miles of motorway are due to come on stream. New schools and hospitals are opening everywhere. Dublin city centre has been transformed. New high-class appartment blocks are being built in those areas that used to have the worst slums in Europe. There are so few slums in Ireland now that they had to film Angela's Ashes abroad as they couldn't find any slums in Ireland. The railways are being completely modernised. I could go on.

And, all done without bankrupting us:

(13) All this development has been done without running up big government debt or
taxing the hell out of us. Total government debt in Ireland is 33% of GDP, the second lowest in the EU (only tiny Luxembourg does better). The government deficit in Ireland in 2004 is under 1%, against 3% in UK, 3.5% in France and Germany, and 4.5% in USA. Income tax rates are now among the lowest in the OECD. Ten years ago they were the highest.

And, even in foreign affairs, FF/PD do well

(14) Silvio Berlusconi couldn't get agreement on the new EU Constitution. The EU had virtually given up hope of agreement in the next 5 years. But, along comes Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen to the rescue. And Bertie's
Taoiseach-ship will reach its triumphant climax in June when agreement on it is signed in Dublin. The Treaty of Dublin! On a side note, I wonder if the NO campaigners in the subsequent referendum will run around with banners saying 'NO to Dublin'. I doubt if they will have the same appeal as 'NO to Nice'.

So, Mr. McDermott, if you want to criticise the FF/PD Government, try to do it in an intelligent way, with some facts and figures to back your arguments like I have done, instead of indulging in an ignorant rant.

by R. Isible Fri Apr 23, 2004 07:07

This isn't a democracy it's a representative democracy. And before you go handing out advice about voting it'd be just as well to spend some time thinking about the problems of your own country which doesn't even allow candidates like Nader to take part in national debates.

Things are not as simple as democracy, not-democracy so cut the patronising out. It just makes you look patronising.

by Mike Thu Apr 22, 2004 23:02

I was under the impression that you folks had a democracy. That you voted for your representatives and that there wasn't serious suspicion that the vote counting was rigged. Are you saying I'm wrong about that?

Or are you confused about the concept of "democracy"? Do you imagine that it is a system designed to put into power representatives that YOU think have the right views -- that if the people choose otherwise, then OBVIOUSLY there's somethign wrong with the democracy?

Friend, your problem is NOT the wrong headed., corrupt, or however else you wish to categorize them politicians of FF. Your problem is that the Irish people choose to vote for them rather than the candidates YOU think would be superior. You may be right. Democracy isn't designed to necessarily give the people good government but the government they deserve because THEY chose it. So if you think the Irish people should vote for somebody else than FF you need to convicne them of that.