Open mindedness, and its conspicuous absence...

by Grass Root Tue Mar 23, 2004 20:27

I agree a bit with what you are saying. There were definitely some immediate negative reactions down in Cork...it's a bit of Dublinitis. I commented on it at the time to plenty of people. Should this first be discussed on a GG list?
This was a particuler situation and the meeting had certain requirements. That said I always welcome a change.

But then I suppose you are just using this as an example of the wider problem.

by Lisa Tue Mar 23, 2004 20:43

I agree wholeheartedly with the author of the article - from personal experience I can testify that sometimes the more 'radical' the activist sounds and appears the more intolerant and judgemental they really are. Like the majority of us I have a very busy life and participate in actions and meetings whenever I can but I constantly find my commitment and integrity called into question. I also have the misfortune of being quite ordinary looking - I even iron my clothes for god's sake! - and have been treated with suspicion and contempt simply because of my unremarkable appearance. On one occassion I was referred to as 'the girl who looks like a librarian'. I am getting really discouraged by a dominant culture of inverted snobbery - we all say that image is unimportant so lets embrace even the least exotic of our movement.

by . Tue Mar 23, 2004 22:24

or we'd never get a say!

by berlinguer Tue Mar 23, 2004 22:46

Speaking as someone who's used open space technology and has no particular problem with it, I think there were three major difficulties at the Cork gathering.

One is that a number of people felt railroaded into participating in something which only a few people were genuinely enthusiastic about.

The second is that it was not explained clearly, and as soon as we started to discuss how we would use it confusion deepened for many people.

The third is that in practice it didn't work well. Particularly we had to abandon a number of workshops which had been planned, and timing was all over the place.

These things do upset people, and I don't think they're wrong to be upset. A lot could have been achieved by better preparation, explanation and facilitation in advance.

On a side note, the sarcastic comments about the Cork Social Forum were about the prospect of yet more open space technology...

by smartass Wed Mar 24, 2004 00:24

What is 'open space technology'? Can you hide a smoky pub with hundreds of punters in a dublin suburban semi? Is this the solution to the property crisis?

by Just Rantin Wed Mar 24, 2004 06:19

People in GG tend to be activist snobs, in that they give the cold shoulder if you're percieved to be new on the "activist " scene. They've also become as bad as the SWP if not worse for sectarianism, constantly bashing which I find extremely boring and unnecssary. If it weren't for these reasons one might go to their meetings and get involved in actions with them, but the main reason I don't go to meetings is because there are simply not enough activists in Ireland who are willing to partake in an effective mass NVDA. You don't have to go to meetings you just have to turn up on the day to partake, i have. Now you could argue bad orrganisational skills here but that would simply be ignoring the truth.
If in a time, when we are witnessing the invasion of a country like Iraq, by a superpower like America, for sick economic and power hungry reasons, if in this horrible time we can't get more than we have being gettin at DA's then you have to ask yourself what's the story?
Will we as a nation, in the next election rid ourselves of our government who have on our behalf partaken in this madness? i with great sadness doubt it very much, but I do Ladies and gents live in hope.

SWP......march, chant, march, chant ,,,,sell paper

GG........go to march complain about it
organise badly organised, run o' the mill actions, that, to be honest about it, only ever really half succeed beause of fuck all people taking part.

O.k the latter is an improvement on the former but if you think about it, any serious DA or effective protesting that has been done in this country has been carried out by individuals, some of whom may have been involved in some form or another with a group, organisation, party etc, they may even be members, nonetheless the people I remember throughout this whole protesting against a war shit, are people in an individual capacity and a load of mad Catholics ( that is mad in a good sense). Funny that, but you know what thay say, 'organised religion'.
That's probably why the gen. puplic always associate the word anarchism with chaos, mayhem etc. because anarchists are shit at organising, no in fairness you can organise all you want there's just fuck all who are willing to come along and there's shag all anarchists in Ireland.

We are only at a stage in this country where we can muster up one or two people at a time (a time of war, I hasten to add) to go that step further and do fucking something more, something that will be effective. There's only two exceptions to this that I can think of, those that set up the Shannon Peace Camp and kept it going and those mad Catholic Anarchists. It looks like unless shit is happening on your own doorstep Celtic Tiger Ireland is too busy to stop and pay attention and act. How many more fuck ups will it take for FF and the PD's to be chucked out? Look what who's in line to take over, well it won't be a sizemic shift but maybe enough of a move in the right direction to create in turn a few more DA hungry anarchists!!

Anyway all this makes me come to the conclusion that we in this country are going to vote back in FF and the PD's in the next election for another 5 years, and things will just keep goin in the direction they're going in. It's a very slow process this overthrowing greedy capitalist gov. lark especially in a country like Ireland!
What if we all decided to canvass and vote for the SWP could we get them in?

Our level of activism and it's nature reflects the general publics' mindset.
The 120,000 strong demo down O' Connell st. was good, but public opinion in this country was never as anti-war as it was in Spain for example, but then again the two countries are completely different.

Fair-play to all those who are willing to stick their only necks out, whether that's being willing to do time for your actions or go to court and pay alot of money you don't have, I admire these people so much. But we all need to be willing to do the same to stop our gov, involving us in this war.
Let's look back at the missed opportunity, if 3000 or 2000 or even 1000 had turned up and entered the airfield at Shannon that day rather than the hundred or so that did could we have made our gov, stop the US military use of Shannon? Damn right we could!
But now we're in a situation past that, if George W flys into Shannon would the same numbers be willing to do some non violent acton? People don't like the sound of Bush's security goons and i definetly don't blame them!
All I know is coming up to the date I will be willing to protest and get arrested for a non-violent action but how many of us are there this time?

by Mike Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:02

I often have to use different methodologies in my paid employment and some of them work some of the time, dpending on the group and the purpose of the meeting. There exists a trendy notion amongst some that the reason the left is so small is that we haven't quite clicked the cool trendy way to do things. these trendy ways are just as open to being manipulated as any other.

Does open space technology achieve its aims? Do you come out of a workshop with a slighly better idea of where you stand than when you went in?

I went to a Dublin meeting organised by the anti-nice crowd i.e SWP. There they used a methodology that iscommonly used in the community sector with small groups that are very much focused on what they are doing. Its importation into the left was just an excuse to stifle debate in a large and unwieldy audience.

It ain't all that hip with the hippies

by Andrew Wed Mar 24, 2004 13:11

Nice to see someone having a go at the Grassroots Gathering for a change, be a bit of a problem if we were unable to be self-critical.

On the Open Space thing in Cork I think the problem was that it was (obviously) not suitable for the Mayday planning at the stage it had progressed to. It's probably quite effective for brainstorming - thats what it looked like it was designed for. But not for a process that has not only already had the brainstorming sessions but half a dozen very concrete planning meetings.

As Mike points out different methods work for different situations and this was the wrong method for the situation. To make it worse the organisers seemed very unwilling to discuss its suitability insisting that we just go ahead with it. People did and it rapidly broke down and ended up in a big group meeting but getting to that stage wasted a lot of valuable time and caused some ill feeling (as above).

I think the problem was overkeen promotors of this particular method. Ironically the comments that started this thread also come across as rather 'closed minded' as they seem incapable of acknowledging that criticisms of such a method can be legtimate and that in this case they didn't work in practise. The end result of trying to use it in an unsuitable way is that most of us who have not come across it before are going to be a lot more reluctant to try it again. Hardly the intended result.

Grass roots comments on 'Dublinitis' have some truth in them. The left in Ireland is dominated by Dublin (or Belfast). The Grassroots Gathering has gone some way to break this by the simple mechanism of having most of the meetings outside of Dublin (Cork (twice), Limerick, Galway and Belfast). But in this case as the area under discussion was protests being organised in Dublin by Dublin grassroots perhaps a certain amount of 'Dublinitis' is inevitable.

I agree with Lisa 100%, clearly the same problem croped up at the Top Oil blockade on Saturday. There is an activist 'look' and people who turn up without the 'look' are often suspected of being journalists (of course once or twice they are). I've had the same thing happen to me in other countries.

I think this is part of a bigger problem of falling into the 'everyone hates us but we don't care' trap that many left groups end up in. There is a definite tendency to run away from anything that looks mainstream or popular. Grumbling about ALL marches is one example of this.

On the other hand a significant minority of those going to grassroots meetings do no have the activist 'look' and those that do are divided into a few such looks from the hippie to the black clad hoody to the occasional bomber jacket.

'Just Rantin's comments have some truth in them but also some real problems. On the one hand 'people in GG tend to be activist snobs' but on the other the problem is that 'there are simply not enough activists in Ireland who are willing to partake in an effective mass NVDA'. There is definetly a pinch of 'activist snobbery' in the second statement that contradicts the first.

It's also counter productive, people will make their own decisions about the level of risk they are willing to take and its a question of organising as best we can with that reality. Wishing for a breed of more heroic activists is counter productive as it creates the idea that those who are not willing to go to jail for X years and not really part of the movement. Which is why with stuff like March 1st we created a space for those who were not willing to risk arrest at all - we recognised they also had a valuable role to play on the day.

Likewise criticising GG actions for frequently being 'badly organised, run o' the mill actions' is fair enough but if you then say "You don't have to go to meetings you just have to turn up on the day to partake" that does beg the question as to who you expect to organise 'well organised effective actions'. I think there is a problem that the bulk of the organisational work often falls on the same few people. In particular if you think there are problems with what is being organised actually turning up to meeting with alternatives seems to be essential.

These attitudes show a fairly general problem with the activist scene in general. Its very common for people to turn up to organisational meetings and say 'I think you should do X, Y Z' with seeming to realise that the whole point of the meeting is for them to also help organise X, Y, Z. They are the 'you' in other words.

I think people sometimes have expectations of the Grassroots Gathering that fail to realise its actually just a network of people and groups who are not all that used to organising together and while they have the statement in common may not have all that much else. Some of us are hippies and some of us are more old style lefties. So of course we have different ideas right down to the basic questions about how decisions can be made and how meetings should be organised. People are not going to automatically agree with you well though out arguement, you can only convince them through explanation and example. And sometimes as with OST you may not convince them at all.

The Gathering is an (inevitably) flawed example of another way to organise campaigns and actions. As such it can only be judged on what has gone before and what the alternatives are. Eight gatherings on some of the limitations of that form of network organsing are beginning to show because early 'success' has made people more ambitious. This in part if why locally based Gathering groups have been and are being created. And also why many of those involved are also involved in more focused organisations with greater internal cohesion.

by Clare Wed Mar 24, 2004 13:54

Fair points Andrew.
What is OST? probably shorthand for something obvious but I can't figure it out.

Were those in Cork aware of what was expected from the Gathering in Cork? Did they know what level of organising had already taken place?
I'm not sure either if the Open Space stuff was the correct option for this meeting but certainly the initial reaction from a number of people ensured that it wasn't going to work.

The point about the way we dress etc. Well, that's kinda a load of shit cos it is up to each person. If someone feels that they don't fit in cos they're not wearing the right anarcho gear then maybe they're missing the point entirely. No one (at GG stuff anyway) has ever made me think twice for not dressing all in black or whatever. Maybe this is going a bit far but that kinda insecurity could come from within an individual rather than projected from the group.

by Andrew Wed Mar 24, 2004 14:01

OST = Open Space Technology, sorry for the shorthand.

The clothes thing is only a problem in so far those active in the GG are going to be suspicious of someone who turns up in a suit (for instance). It is not a question of saying people should stop wearing X more that they should not judge someone else by what they wear. Not something you can 'legislate' for of course.

by Just Rantin Wed Mar 24, 2004 14:38

"Just Rantin's comments have some truth in them but also some real problems. On the one hand 'people in GG tend to be activist snobs' but on the other the problem is that 'there are simply not enough activists in Ireland who are willing to partake in an effective mass NVDA'. There is definetly a pinch of 'activist snobbery' in the second statement that contradicts the first."

Thats a cheesy rebuttal Andrew, the first statement is my personal opiion which I hope I'm still allowed to have, the second is a fact, there has not been a sucessfull NVDA campaign in Ireland against the war because there are not enough people willing to get involved, I believe the day GG did the can/can in front of the fence is the most obvious example if the number of people there had been double it was, it might have happened.

It's also counter productive, people will make their own decisions about the level of risk they are willing to take and its a question of organising as best we can with that reality.

"Wishing for a breed of more heroic activists is counter productive as it creates the idea that those who are not willing to go to jail for X years and not really part of the movement. Which is why with stuff like March 1st we created a space for those who were not willing to risk arrest at all - we recognised they also had a valuable role to play on the day"

This statement is also cheesy seeing as it has always been anarchists and people involved in GG who have criticised marches as pointless, I have heard sentiments like this many times from GG heads, in fact there's a quote right now under the Top Oil thread from a GG member alluding to this.
So I personally am not taking from those who wish to march only I repeat I am merely stating in Ireland we do not have a great number of activists who are willing to do more.

"Likewise criticising GG actions for frequently being 'badly organised, run o' the mill actions' is fair enough but if you then say "You don't have to go to meetings you just have to turn up on the day to partake" that does beg the question as to who you expect to organise 'well organised effective actions'. I think there is a problem that the bulk of the organisational work often falls on the same few people. In particular if you think there are problems with what is being organised actually turning up to meeting with alternatives seems to be essential."
This statemen doesn't take away from the fact that GG actions are badly organised, and it doesn't alter the fact that even if they were well organised the same number of people would probably turn up. I hope you don't have to be a member of GG in order to give some criticism.

Just to repeat, it's all about numbers and in a time of war when things are as bad as you can imagine for the Iraqi people we here in Ireland are not politically mature enough to raise the numbers required to put a stop to our governments involvement in the slaughter.

This criticism is not exclusively aimed at GG

by Andrew Wed Mar 24, 2004 14:48

Not sure what cheesy means in this context? But obviously making criticisms invites reply and discussion and thats what I was doing. I don't get the sensitvity about being replied to in particular when you are posting anonymously.

I think the discussion itself is a good thing but I would be interested in how you see better protests emerging without someone going to meetings etc to organise them.

by redjade Wed Mar 24, 2004 15:15

The question I like to ask people 'in the movement' is: Would a group called 'Capitalists Against The War' be allowed in your coalition?

I am half-serious about this... There are many good 'pro-capitalist' arguments against this stupid war.

But would such a view be allowed within the circles of SWP/GG/etc? How much are all these movements about promoting other ideologies and use the war to promote those ideologies?

Certainly, we all come to 'the movement' informed by our own ideologies - this is not a know-nothing rant against ideologies. But are we really willing to put aside those different visions, find common ground, respect each other and work together to end this war and Ireland's participation in it?

Are we?

by Andrew Wed Mar 24, 2004 15:35

In terms of the Grassroots Gathering its very hard to see how a group called 'capitalists against the war' would be in agreement with the gathering statement (see below). But most of the GG credited events were not organised by GG but by off shoots like GNAW which has no such statement. In other words particapation in an action was based on participation in the action so in theory George Bush or Bertie could have turned up to try and pull down the fence.

The Gathering statement

"The Grassroots Gathering aims towards a network which would:

- Be based on the principle that people should control their own lives and work together as equals, as part of how we work as well as what we are working towards.

- Within the network this means rejecting top-down and state-centred forms of organisation (hierarchical, authoritarian, expert-based, Leninist etc.) We need a network that's open, decentralised, and really democratic.

- Call for solutions that involve ordinary people controlling their own lives and having the resources to do so: the abolition, not reform, of global bodies like the World Bank and WTO, and a challenge to underlying structures of power and inequality.

- Organise for the control of the workplace by those who work there.

- Call for the control of communities by the people who live there.

- Argue for a sustainable environmental, economic and social system, agreed by the people of the planet.

- Working together in ways which are accessible to ordinary people, particularly women and working-class people, rather than reproducing feelings of disempowerment and alienation within our own network. "

by jh Wed Mar 24, 2004 16:31

well they can contribute to gnaw or go from there own group, and do there own stuff nobody stopping them

i don't know what just rantin is on about if he so impressed with the small actions go off and do one, we'll hear about it...

the dublin -ities thing is a problem with all countries and ireland, most things happen in the capital...

dublin gg ain't gonna organise stuff in other cities, they'll assist others to do so if they come forward and ask for help...

hmm are capitalist allowed to join gnaw, well how many capitalist would agree with gnaws tactics ??? who consider themselves capitalist

problem is alot of people don't think in these terms, they don't go walking down the road thinking they are capitalist they see the war on tv they see it as unjust or not they'll make the connection to the rest of life or not...

i don't know if you could define anyone as being holly anti-capitalist, in theory yes in practice no... so there are plenty consumers(of verying degress) in gg... thats life as we know it

theres different groups for differents people...

i think the clothes thing is mostly the insecurity of the person who feels out of place among all the black

i find it an insult to mention the swp and gg in the same sentence theres no comparison!
the swp go out of they way to dismantle other ppls actions that they dont' agree with no gg has ever done that, disagreement mistake etc but not that

i did hear the saying that non-hierachy etc ends up being a dictator of the most committed but in my experience i thinks it balances it self out fairly well among the entire grouping

i think the gg is quite broad in its own area... and has worked with plenty of other groups in its entirity or as gg-type individuals

the difficulty is the difference between those who campaing all the time and those who don't at all, there need to be methods for a iddle ground where people can contribute to "the movement" without having to spend every spare hour at it... the old, your in or your out problem...

by DG Wed Mar 24, 2004 16:35

They are there and are represented. I think the Greens, SF, Labour, the Trade Union leaders, David Norris etc, etc. have addressed anti-war demo's.
None of them are anti-capitalist.

by pc Wed Mar 24, 2004 16:36

then just rantin

ireland is a small country...
you can only work with the numbers you have

have you gone abroad to other actions j r

sometimes you just can't try to replicate the stuff from abroad here

by ábhar machnamh Wed Mar 24, 2004 17:29

I'm glad to see that my comment has inspired some inward looking debate, but I think it should be emphasised that I used Open Space Technology as an example; the point is that people (as a group) didn't consider the merits of other ideas and methods, rather they rejected them out of hand as they were unfamiliar.
If the progress that dublin had made had been communicated prior to the meeting, much of this could have been avoided; likewise perhaps the time and the place for open space technology was not this one. Andrew, I think you misunderstood my initial post, in that I have no problem with criticism of open space technology,as I mentioned, it is equally open to criticism. I have done my best to keep an open mind.
In terms of "capitalists against the war", I think jh's comments are closest to the mark in that we are all, to some degree and no fault of our own, participants in modern life. But anyone who defines themselves as a capitalist is unlikly in the extreme to join us.
One of the other main threads of my opinion is that, while I appreciate that "capitalist" is used as an extreme to make the point, the point is to welcome and encourage people into the movement who have many similar broad ideals as we do (for I am sure that I could sit down with another GG member and debate almost endlessly with them on any number of points).
We need to emphasise the positive, and the fact that what unites us is very strong. If this (unquantifyable) number of people were to become part of the movement, then the question regarding numbers at Shannon would take care of itself! Therein lies the motivation for self-appraisal, and the rewards that it could bring...

by Maratist Wed Mar 24, 2004 17:33

"One person dismissed it before even leaving dublin, while others took one look at the guidelines on the wall and spent the rest of the weekend giving out about how they couldnt work, rather than trying to make them work."

- I think what the person who wrote the first report is doing there is describing people dismissing something BEFORE they started to use it, so any problems with using it are not relevant to the attitudes of people, I have used OST and it functions quite admirably in mapping out a coherent strategy, although I was very sceptical initially, OST will not work if the people using it don't want it to - the point of it is people are not going to organise things for you - you do it (and you are supposed to come back to a general meeting at the end). In fact OST is not that different from splitting up into working groups - I mean it's not really that novel at all.

I don't think conservatism is the issue ARROGANCE perhaps.

by Fergal Wed Mar 24, 2004 17:47

"The clothes thing is only a problem in so far those active in the GG are going to be suspicious of someone who turns up in a suit (for instance)"

Interesting how someone denying a tendancy to judge people on their dress, can then do the same himself. I suppose the reason it's done so blatantly is that suits are so clearly beyong the pale that one needn't even pretend not to be prejudices against people wearing them.
I have to wear suits for my job, that doesn't mean I don't have political views of my own.

Oh, and there are many good reasons for a capitalist to oppose the war. A stable dictatorship is a better trading partner than a democracy, with all its unpredictability. Just ask Jacques Chirac...

by Andrew Wed Mar 24, 2004 18:07

ábhar machnamh - fair enough, I replied as much to get some real discussion going as anything else.

Maratist - there is nothing wrong with 'dismissing in advance' something that you think it not applicable in a particular situation or something you consider to be counter productive. We make these sort of judgements all the time in life (eg 'that film sounds like shit so I'm not going to see it'). In this case I think it was obvious enough that OST which is a form of brainstorming was probably not going to work for something in an advanced planning stage.

It might be a good brainstorming method but the Cork experience has put me and others off trying it again, in fact its becoming a by word for 'how not to organise'. People can form negative opinions of trying something out as well as positive ones so its important to make sure that first try is one that shows some method to its advantage. Not the case here.

On the day itself Cork was organising the event so I pointed out what I though the problem was at the start and when they was ignored particapated as best as I could. Only a couple of people left the area so I think most people gave it a try. Experimenting with the format is part and parcel of the grassroots right from the start but this doesn't mean all formats are going to be popular or even that all formats are suitable for all subjects.

Fergal - you misunderstand me. I used the example of suits as they are the clothes wear most likely to attract a negative reaction in activist circles. I don't actually share that reaction because a lot of older activists I know have jobs that require they wear suits. And I know a couple of activists who like to wear a shirt and tie to meetings precisly to undermine this sort of reaction.

by iosaf Wed Mar 24, 2004 18:33

one of which was, is and will ever be:-

Do not be afraid to admit what an idiot you may be.

by golfclubs for anarchists Wed Mar 24, 2004 22:35

As is Anarchism!

by James Thu Mar 25, 2004 00:56

Sure there's a time and place for everything. What works in one context mightn't work in another. Something similar to OST was used at a big ISF meeting last May or June and it worked pretty okay, I thought.

Didn't come up trumps down in Cork, possibly wasn't helped by the fact the Dublin group, as Andrew said, already had concrete work done and it's more suited to brainstorming to get things moving. Other reasons too of course. Most people genuinely did try to make the afternoon as productive as possible.

On ábhar's more general point, people I meet are generally fairly open. There was a bit of a funny comment on OST on sunday, but that was it. No harm in bit of a laugh.

Folks have opinions, some aren't gone on fluffy thinking, others blanch when the working class, the bin tax & socialism are mentioned. At least Grassroots provides a chance for people from different backgrounds to work together and hopefully learn a bit.

What , if anything, does the name ábhar m mean?

by Just Rantin Thu Mar 25, 2004 14:38

Andrew said
"Not sure what cheesy means in this context? But obviously making criticisms invites reply and discussion and thats what I was doing. I don't get the sensitvity about being replied to in particular when you are posting anonymously.

I think the discussion itself is a good thing but I would be interested in how you see better protests emerging without someone going to meetings etc to organise them."

I'm not going to even bother to explain why I used the word cheesy.

But I have no idea who you are either mate sorry! Andrew?? Andrew who??

I take pc's comment and he is right you can't replicate actions from abroad.
Maybe GG/Gnaw are continuously being overambitious, they should "rk with the numbers they have" and organise actions that suit them!
Perhaps a llittle more publicity wouldn't go amiss, Not every activist can be involved at all levels but the most important thing to do is turn up on the day!

by J18 Fri Mar 26, 2004 14:23

Give up Activism

In 1999, in the aftermath of the June 18th global day of action, a pamphlet called Reflections on June 18th was produced by some people in London, as an open-access collection of "contributions on the politics behind the events that occurred in the City of London on June 18, 1999". Contained in this collection was an article called 'Give up Activism' which has generated quite a lot of discussion and debate both in the UK and internationally, being translated into several languages and reproduced in several different publications.[1] Here we republish the article together with a new postscript by the author addressing some comments and criticisms received since the original publication.


(here we link to the article so as not to take up loads of space or contravene indymedia guidelines- padraic, one of the editorial collective)

http://www.eco-action.org/dod/no9/activism.htm

by It's Liz, obviously, who wrote the top piece. Thu Apr 01, 2004 21:12

If you arent happy with the Grassroots then there are always other places to go. Nobody says that the Grassroots is the be all and end all of political activitiy in this country. And if it is only a few individuals in the GG who were giving out about the open space technology then that still doesnt reflect on everyone within the GG.

I dont think that people within the GG are adverse to open session meetings, it happened to very good effect at the very first GG plenary meeting in Spacecraft where nobody knew what we were meant to be talking about - its the way that they were presented and organised in such a chaotic and utterly pointless fashion down in Cork which disappointed people in the end.