The recent anti-war march in Belfast

by Jo Take Tue Mar 23, 2004 13:48

Are you striving for a politically pure anti-war movement or what? If everybody gets huffy whenever an anti-war march is hijacked addressed by those found politically distasteful be they Labour/SF/Green/SWP/SP/Palestinian/Basque etc, there is zero point in calling for such protests.

You see no connection between Basque separatism and the war in Iraq?, do you not remember Aznar’s slimy attempt to pin the Madrid atrocity on ETA for electoral purposes? Under the cloak of the so-called war on terror, the Spanish state has unleashed a wave of repression (closure of newspapers, “preventative” arrests, increased use of torture) in the Basque country against anyone it suspects of having the slightest secessionist sympathies.

by By Any Means Necessary Tue Mar 23, 2004 13:54

Anti -imperialism and anti-colonialism are surely the central philosophy of the anti-war movement.

Therefore "Brits Out of Ireland " and Basque Freedom are essentially the same struggle as those in Iraq suffering from the occupation.

You cannot cherry pick injustice or oppression.

by pat c Tue Mar 23, 2004 14:10

surely this is a single issue campaign. you can march against the US led war against the developing world and still hold a differing perspective to your fellow marcher on the Irish and Basque national questions.

by Justin O'Hagan Tue Mar 23, 2004 15:32 justinohagan at hotmail dot com

"Are you striving for a politically pure anti-war movement or what?"

I'll repeat what I wrote:
I'm more than happy to march with people who I don't agree with on other issues.

The point is that the key-note speech - indeed the only speech- prior to the march wasd made by a Basque separatist and that's a different issue.

Another response was:"Anti -imperialism and anti-colonialism are surely the central philosophy of the anti-war movement.

Therefore "Brits Out of Ireland " and Basque Freedom are essentially the same struggle as those in Iraq suffering from the occupation."

Well, that's your opinion and your entitled to it. Indeed, your entitled to shout it from the rooftops.

However, it's not necessarily the opinion of all who might march against the Bush-Blair invasion of Iraq. As a result ,these protests must be focused on the main issue.

Justin O'Hagan

by By Any Means Necessary Tue Mar 23, 2004 15:49

not one for puting words into any one else's mouth, but was not your post a criticism about the expression of these anti-colonialist and anti-imperialist manifestations at the Belfast march that upset you ?

Can you please seperate the issue of this Iraqi war with Spain's occupation of the Basque country..and Blair's support of Bush in terrorising a soveriegn people with Britain's colonial past and present in the occuppied six counties..?

by Justin O'Hagan Tue Mar 23, 2004 16:34 justinohagan at hotmail dot com

“not one for puting words into any one else's mouth, but was not your post a criticism about the expression of these anti-colonialist and anti-imperialist manifestations at the Belfast march that upset you ?”

I’ll try to clarify. I wasn’t emotionally “upset” or in a huff. I was pissed off at politically immaturity. A march like the one on Saturday is in a sense a free-for–all and various groups will use it to make their points. Political groups will sell papers, and Basques, Provos et al will fly their flags. That’s what happens at anti-war marches. The Ogra Champagne people pissed me off and I told them why - they attempted to hijack the march for their own ends
But what what mostly pissed me off was that the organisers gave the platform to a Basque when the issue was Iraq.

”Can you please seperate the issue of this Iraqi war with Spain's occupation of the Basque country..and Blair's support of Bush in terrorising a soveriegn people with Britain's colonial past and present in the occuppied six counties..?”

I’m not going to attempt to give you a history lesson, comrade, but I’d like to ask you who exactly is ‘occupying’ these six counties and what you would do about it?
What about other European nationalists and secessionsts? The Bretons, the Welsh, the Schwabens of Hungary, The Hungarians of Serbia, The Alabanians of Kosovo, the list goes on. Is nationalist grievance always a result of imperialist interference? Are secessionist demands always progressive?

Writing of Kosovo, Diana Johnstone states that: “The basic problem of Kosovo is the difficult coexistence on one territory of ethnic communities radically separated by customs, language and historical self-identification. From a humanistic viewpoint, this problem is more fundamental than the problem of State boundaries.”

These are difficult issues and when it suits them imperialists use and inflame these grievances to their own ends (See, for example, Fool’s Crusade Johnstone’s brilliant book on German and Anglo-American interference in Yugoslavia.) The imperialists in Iraq ,according to a recent report in the New York Times, would like to balkanise Iraq along religious lines. That’s what modern imperialists do: they harness nationalism and ethnic rivalry to create failed states.

by Jo Take Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:25

OK you weren’t “emotionally “upset” or “ in a huff”, you were pissed off, , so you expunge your stress by a near blanket dismissal of nationalist struggles and hint at an intrinsinic reactionary nature of such struggles. Well, “comrade”, if you knew anything about the Basque struggle, you would know that while ETA get the headlines,, there is a massive grassroots progressive struggle against the Spanish state encompassing social, libertarian, green issues. The brunt of the Spanish attack on the Basque struggle has been borne by street activists not the so called terrorists. There are countless examples of progressive nationalist struggles now and throughout history, so I find it hard to take seriously, the rhetoric masked as questions below, i.e;
“I’d like to ask you who exactly is ‘occupying’ these six counties and what you would do about it? Is nationalist grievance always a result of imperialist interference? Are secessionist demands always progressive?”

One piece of advice before you get “pissed off" by bolshie Basques or republicans again, think about what they are opposing, if you still get troubled you may as well welcome yourself into to the new world order.

by By Any Means Necessary Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:41

I agree with you in respect that national and ethnic divisions are fostered by colonialists and imperialists to maintain their influence and power in the region.

Divide and Rule was a Roman idea used by the British Empire to great success. If you look at the history of the Sudan you can see a deliberate ethnic and sectarian division of an ancient nation into competing factions which has today, long after British withdrawal, left a bloody legacy.

Of course I believe that the IRA was fighting an anti-colonial struggle and its role in history is the same as the various organisations who struggled through out the former European Empires.

National Liberation struggles are not the same as jingoism.it suits the oppressor, comrade, to label them as that.
It is the same cry as "Right for Whites" when anti-racists try to highlight institutional racism.

Discussion on these issues are good and marches which draw various groups together in a common "single issue " cause this kind of political arguement and for me that is the only way to unite and smash this system of oppression we all are living in.

by zapata - everywere Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:42 crustinon at hotmail dot com belfast none

did you listen to the basque speaker? told us all something the media kept out and we needed to hear.
anyhow the basque community obviously feel strong connection with any country under brutal occupation as their own..its called solidarity and the connection of all our struggles to make us a strong enough force for change in this ravaged world of Bush and his cronnies. dont think more than 50 people would have turned up for a basque only rally, so certainly give em a platform and the palestinians to.
injustice to 1 is injustice to all.... open your eyes, havent you noticed the web of resistance we our tryin to create...worldwide... antiwar,gay rights,animal rights, human rights,and much to many struggles to add... may we grow strong together, blossom and then feast on the fruit of our labor...just a wee thought.

by Justin O'hagan Wed Mar 24, 2004 13:11 justinohagan at hotmail dot com

‘…I find it hard to take seriously, the rhetoric masked as questions below, i.e;
“I’d like to ask you who exactly is ‘occupying’ these six counties and what you would
do about it? Is nationalist grievance always a result of imperialist interference? Are
secessionist demands always progressive?” ‘

Not rhetorical questions but, of course, don’t try to answer if you don’t want to.


‘One piece of advice before you get “pissed off" by bolshie Basques or republicans think about what they are opposing, if you still get troubled you may as well welcome yourself into to the new world order.’

An interesting, if extraordinarily patronising, response. Jo Take would include me in the ranks of Bush and Blair just because I don’t agree with her/his take on nationalism. I’m not hurt or even pissed off, Jo, but I don’t foresee the Irish left breaking out of its tiny ghetto if your view represents the majority.

by Jo Take Wed Mar 24, 2004 14:31

Who is occupying the six counties? London, on behalf of a minority of people of this island who for sectarian reasons identify with a more powerful neighbour because of perceived material advantages. “Britain” is an old imperial concept cooked up to artificially unify the different nations of these islands under Hanoverian, now Windsor rule which translated to famine and partial genocide for victims of this union.

"Is nationalist grievance always a result of imperialist interference? Are secessionist demands always progressive?” Rhetorical as fuck but anyway, - no, of course not, the inverse is also not the case which your rhetorical questions suggest (i.e; nationalist grievance is never a result of imperialist interference, secessionist demands are never progressive), hence my reluctance to respond to them. Broadly speaking, the nationalism of recent, post USSR years has been of reactionary nature (Yugoslavia, ex-Soviet republics) and in many cases, is no more than the equivalent of setting up corrupt tax havens for the rich. You would no doubt include the struggles for self-determination in the North, Basque country, Palestine among these by your previous postings.

I stand by “my interesting if extraordinarily patronising, response”, I was merely pointing out that to create divisions among the left and it’s allies by dismissing left-leaning nationalist struggles from a place in the anti-war movement serves the throwbacks well. If you get offended/huffy/hurt/pissed off/ tiniest bit miffed by Basque speakers, republican activists at an anti-war rally, there will be no point attending in future as the main effect it had on you was to lash out at the organisers choice of speaker. It was you who decided to “go public” with your “my friend will never come to another of these rallies”, if the anti-war movement has to silence elements of it’s own support in the hope of keeping fair weather comrades, you will find that it is this course that will fracture and neuter the Irish left. We are talking about the “left” after all aren’t we comrade, and not new Labour?

by anti imperialist Wed Mar 24, 2004 21:39

Is jo take a supporter of the Good Friday Agreement and the republican leadership. Is the GFA not an imperialist brokered settlement of the struggle against the imperialist occupation and partition of Ireland. After all if republicans believe that british and american imperialism can broker a progressive settlement in ireland why not in Iraq, Palestine, columbia, afganistan, venezeuala etc. the list of areas of the world where they are imposing imperialist peace is endless because their global reach is just about everywhere. Have republicans developed a new theory of imperialism? if so can we hear it. They might explain why we had Bush in Ireland last year, probably the only country in Europe he could comfortably have visited and donned his "peace" mantle and why the shinners felt obliged to shake his bloodstained hands.

by L Wed Mar 24, 2004 23:43

"Not rhetorical questions? You really want an answer?
by Jo Take Wednesday, Mar 24 2004, 1:31pm


Who is occupying the six counties? London, on behalf of a minority of people of this island who for sectarian reasons identify with a more powerful neighbour because of perceived material advantages."

Jo manages to turn the struggle in the north on its head. Suddenly the ruling class of britain dances to the tune of the minority of Irish people and of course this minority now becomes the opposition not the poor misunderstood brits who are only here at their bidding.
Good old Britain how sweet of them!

Jo catch yourself on, London is here because it is in their interests.

by Justin O'Hagan Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:39

Final thoughts.

The IRA campaign in the North was reactionary, unnecessary and de facto sectarian. It wasn’t progressive. It failed to even begin to address the existence of Prod workers, who were and are simply passed over as catspaws. Unless socialist politics seeks to address this division in the working class it will exist long into any future unified Ireland.

Jo Take argues that the Prods “for sectarian reasons identify with a more powerful neighbour because of perceived material advantages.” I don’t see how anyone could perceive material advantage in working class east Belfast, or the Shore Road or the Shankhill Road. I do see it in leafier parts of the North whyre the Catholic and Protestant middle class resides.

‘“Britain” is an old imperial concept cooked up to artificially unify the different nations of these islands under Hanoverian, now Windsor rule which translated to famine and partial genocide for victims of this union.’

This sounds very clever but it amounts to history as a conspiracy of Princes. If Britain is such an obvious ruling class façade, you’d think the Brits would have seen through it ages ago. Incidentally, which nation isn’t artificial in the sense that men and women made it?

Imperial Britain through its military and commercial classes plundered Ireland, no question about it, but in the here and now it costs the Brits a packet to stay here. They’d leave tomorrow if they could and the Ireland they leave behind would only be progressive if the balance of forces shifted in the direction of the workers. (For example, from what little I know about it, post-Apartheid South Africa seems to be run by ANC Thatcherites.)
Moreover, expressions of Prod culture would have to be permitted and welcomed in any progressive unified Ireland.

‘…there will be no point attending in future as the main effect it had on you was to lash out at the organisers choice of speaker.’

Once again the patronising tone is truly astonishing. I will attend whatever march I please. And if honest criticism is deemed ‘lashing out’, then what room for honest criticism?

‘Broadly speaking, the nationalism of recent, post USSR years has been of reactionary nature (Yugoslavia, ex-Soviet republics) and in many cases, is no more than the equivalent of setting up corrupt tax havens for the rich. You would no doubt include the struggles for self-determination in the North, Basque country, Palestine among these by your previous postings.’

I fully support the Palestinians in their struggle against the Zionist apartheid state.
Moreover, I can see a direct and relevant connection between Palestine and Anglo-American imperialism elsewhere in the Middle east. But the Basque question? Nah.

by Jo Take Thu Mar 25, 2004 14:58

“anti imperialist” – Couldn’t be arsed trolling to your demands, sorry.

L – Jumping to conclusions there a chara, I AM stating that the root cause of partition is London allowing a minority of people on this island to veto re-unification (helped along by the free state of course). “this minority now becomes the opposition not the poor misunderstood brits who are only here at their bidding. Good old Britain how sweet of them!” God, the wit ;- Sectarianism, Discrimination, Stormont, Internment, Censorship, Shoot to Kill, Criminalisation, Ulsterisation? Who’s been yanking who’s chain here then?

I never denied the Brits had selfish interests here, of course they do, but the significant anti-Irish proportion of the population of the six counties IS backed by London and always has been, so what the fuck am I “turning on it’s head”. As long as the sectionalists have foreign backing they will oppose unity, without it their options are fewer, the absurdity of their position clearer, their future doubtful.

Justin, you can’t see much material advantage in working class loyalist areas, well, that’s incredible. That was the whole point of the London-installed Stormont Junta, throw the Prods a few crumbs, nothing the Taigs to create division and foster the sectarian nature of the 6-county homeland to exploit all, for fuck’s sake this is basic stuff.

“you’d think the Brits would have seen through it ages ago”- It is not up to me to worry about why the people of England, Wales, Scotland have put up with their rulers for so long but I suspect having an empire and a whore upon a throne had the creepy effect of indentifying the people with their rulers.

“Moreover, expressions of Prod culture would have to be permitted and welcomed in any progressive unified Ireland.” Yes, and what’s your point, you hinting that republicans are sectarian or what? Do your “expressions of Prod culture” include fascist-type marching through native areas, supremacism, ethnic cleansing or what “expressions of Prod culture” do you think a united Ireland would have difficulty permitting or “having to” welcome?

Patronising? Your “honest criticism” was a nasty attempt to prohibit Basque nationalists from addressing anti-war rallies in future with the added caveat that others will stay away if this happens again. If you see no connection between different world-wide struggles against oppression, I find it hard to comprehend that you “fully support the Palestinians in their struggle against the Zionist apartheid state”, it suggests to me that you know very little about the Basque struggle.