US Provocation in Madrid?

by until it sleeps Tue Mar 16, 2004 22:16

If you hate the West so much why don't you move? I mean if it exists outside of the US sphere of influence it must be a wonderland, right? I hear Iran and China are nice this time of year. It's a pity the USSRs socialist paradise was crushed by the evil US, eh? Seriously, grow up. The West mightn't be perfect, but its much better than all other political systems that have been tried. Not everything the US does is part of a plot to subjugate you, you know. And to be brutally honest, the prisoners in Cuba have been pretty leniently treated. They werent in Afghanistan on a holiday, and are for all intents and purposes, traitors. The UK still has the death sentence for treason as far as I know.......

by me - none Tue Mar 16, 2004 22:19

why would anyone (collective anyone) serious about politics publish this wacked, paranoid, otherwordly, conspiratorial crap? it is an insult to those who lost their lives in madrid, an insult to the magnificent response of the spanish people, an insult to anyone serious about finding their bearings in and changing this mad world.

this site is digressing from the swamp to the sewer. its only remaining utility, i think, is as a trawl site for the intelligence apparatus. straighten it out or do the left a favor and shut the fucking thing down

by Intelligence apparatus Tue Mar 16, 2004 22:24

do you suggest we shut down the worldwide network or just the irish operation? - don't panic regular users - the dalek is coming

by Phuq Hedd Tue Mar 16, 2004 22:34

QUOTE: "why would anyone (collective anyone) serious about politics publish this wacked, paranoid, otherwordly, conspiratorial crap?"
ANSWER: Which specific parts of the post are wrong? Either point them out or else admit that you just don't like what it's saying but that you have no rational grounds on which to base that dislike.

QUOTE: "it is an insult to those who lost their lives in madrid, an insult to the magnificent response of the spanish people, an insult to anyone serious about finding their bearings in and changing this mad world."
ANSWER: Why is it an insult? Supposing some of those that died held the beliefs that were expressed in this post? Do you know that they don't? Are you presuming to speak for them and their families? Are you wrapping yourself in a flag of flesh? This sounds very like the "patriotic" rubbish that tried to suppress the voices of those who had lost their lives or their loved ones in the 9-11 atrocity. It turned out that there were significant numbers of those people who held strong anti-war, anti-imperialist beliefs. DemocracyNOW! carried a good interview with Rita Lazar whose brother died trying to carry out a disabled colleague from the twin towers. Her brother was a staunch anti-war pacifist as is Rita. She later travelled to Afghanistan to try and convey to the innocent people being bombed by the USA that she and a huge number of other Americans were not in favour of their murder by her government.

QUOTE: "this site is digressing from the swamp to the sewer. its only remaining utility, i think, is as a trawl site for the intelligence apparatus. straighten it out or do the left a favor and shut the fucking thing down"
ANSWER: I think the site is doing very nicely and that the only thing that detracts from it is people like you who try to stifle debate. To echo the post above yours: if you don't like it, why don't you go somewhere else like China or Russia? Alternatively you could attempt (with a dictionary and an English language tutor) to read The Irish Indpendent or The Irish Times.

Good bye.

by as do many other conspiracy theorists Tue Mar 16, 2004 22:53

.

by until it sleeps Tue Mar 16, 2004 23:08

What's wrong is the implication that Al-Quaeda is an invention, some kind of evil US conspiracy. Bluntly, this is ignorant crap. Is it the CIA who managed to 'invent' this new terrorist threat? The same CIA who was so inept in the 1980s at rooting out Soviet spies has suddenly metamorphosed into a 1984 style, all controlling super secret evil organisation? Quite unlikely, wouldnt you say. Believe it or not (and you really should) terrorism is a real threat. Just as real as Communism was. Or was the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe a US invention too? And was Stalin actually a really nice guy?

by Phuq Hedd Tue Mar 16, 2004 23:45

QUOTE: "WHATS WRONG?????????"
ANSWER: Ssshh, you look like one of those nuts that's turning indymedia "into a sewer".

QUOTE: "What's wrong is the implication that Al-Quaeda is an invention, some kind of evil US conspiracy."
ANSWER: It depends on how one reads the post. I'll agree that it's not a very good post because it does imply and insinuate without stating a clear argument. However, if one reads it as saying that the USA is profiting from the activities of Al Quaeda and one couples this with the evidence that Osama bin Laden did receive money from the USA in order to do "anti-Soviet" bunker construction for (what was then) the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan, then it doesn't have to be a simple "conspiracy". Instead it can be seen as the USA interfering willy-nilly without regard to real ethics and surfing the wave of terror that results. Admittedly this reading of the post is blunted by the fact that it is titled "US Provocation?" which implies a more active part. As I say, it's not a particularly good post.

QUOTE: "Bluntly, this is ignorant crap."
ANSWER: Bluntly, the phrase "ignorant crap" is itself ignorant crap.

QUOTE: "Is it the CIA who managed to 'invent' this new terrorist threat? The same CIA who was so inept in the 1980s at rooting out Soviet spies has suddenly metamorphosed into a 1984 style, all controlling super secret evil organisation? Quite unlikely, wouldnt you say."
ANSWER: Is it the same CIA that helped Saddam Hussein to stage a coup in Iraq? The same CIA that funded the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan? The same CIA that helped out Pol Pot? The same CIA that ran Operation Gladio and the Strategy of Tension in post-war Italy? Start to seem a little more likely wouldn't you say?

QUOTE: "Believe it or not (and you really should) terrorism is a real threat."
ANSWER: Believe it or not (and you really should) terrorism is carried out by States directly in the form of wars, funded by them covertly in the form of proxy-wars and destabilisations (how's Haiti doing these days? any of those US-supplied Guatemalan weapons come out of CIA funds or was it the Defense Intelligence Agency or some other subversive group?) and outright attacks (remember those brave French commandoes that bombed the Rainbow Warrior?)

QUOTE: "Just as real as Communism was. Or was the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe a US invention too? And was Stalin actually a really nice guy?"
ANSWER: Oh now you're just being silly again. Pity, you were making some rational arguments up to that point.

by Anon Wed Mar 17, 2004 01:36

Note as stated above that the US administration in the 1980s supplied Bin-Laden and co. with arms and money, which eventually led to the rise of Al-Qaeda.
This terror threat is something which they have created themselves, the CIA may as well have invented it as it all has the same effect in the end.

by GreenPartyMike - Green Party USA Wed Mar 17, 2004 04:43

Phugg Hedd (funny name BTW)
Good Lord man, ya completely forgot the very recent, latest overthrow of a democratically elected government ALA President Aristede. Before our jingoistic and probably rabidly racist apologist supporter of all things American (mind you Venezuala is part of America but dont tell the yanks that) that Aristede was corrupt etc etc, which is what the corporate media is telling Americans, that id the democratically elected Prez of Haiti is so corrupt, well then that is what elections are supposed to be for.
Speaking of corporate media, see you all in spirit on March 20th. I shall be speaking to the rally in St Paul, Minnesota. My topic shall be the corporate media. Given the sameful bootlicking of the media here, regarding the war in Iraq and Haiti, tearing apart their credibility shall be very, very easy.
I will also be making some other announcements that some of you may hear about. So fuck the begrudgers and paper patriots and have hope. Dissent and questioning the very nature of this fucked up country is growing. I see it every day.
The daleks are coming. Exterminate Exterminate

by Winston Smith Wed Mar 17, 2004 09:35

First they announced it was the Basques then they started to find trucks, video tapes, they published pictures of Arabs holding pistols and loe and behold you have it, the Al Quaeda connection. Similar crap surfaced on the original 9/11 where Mohammed Attas passport was found intact after the explosions yet no black boxes were ever found...
I do believe Al Quaeda exists, as does Hollywood. A movie while fictional exists. The issue at stake is who is the director/producer? The finger can only point at one direction, at those who profit from the war on terror, for their own ends.

by Lone gunman Wed Mar 17, 2004 14:45

Where was Mohammed Attas passport found?ASFIK what was shown on the newscasts was a photocopy or orginal as I belive he left it behind deliberatly.Remember in the evil USA you dont NEED to have a passport to travel internally.[Maybe that has changed courtsey of those Arab assholes.]
Which brings me onto the second point who financed the Taliban and Osama?
Try corrupt, wealthy fundalmentilst Saudi Arabs.In their belif of jihad against the Sovs in Afghanistan they financed all sort of fundalmantilist groups,until one of their sons came home and saw how bad his financers were cosying up to the great satan.
It is never a simple black/white issue as most like would to portray it around here.[I put it down to naviety,and a limited weltanshaung]
It is shades of grey,where eveyone is neither totally innocent or totally guilty.Sooner the better when you can make out the shades of grey,you can get a better grip on this world.

happy St Paddies day all

by caspian Wed Mar 17, 2004 16:31

Mossad have the evil monsters in their midst who could carry out an operation of this cruelty and brutality. The war on terror must go on! The Australian voters needed convincing, hence Bali. Same in New York now in Madrid. Watch for further clampdowns against civil rights in Europe.
Israel benefits all the time from the supposed war on terror. They are the biggest threat to the planet. A nuclear equipped rogue state that is funded by Israeli controlled America.

by gargoyle Wed Mar 17, 2004 17:31

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to blame Mossad / Israel.

by Plup Wed Mar 17, 2004 21:57

So far the following have benefitted:

The Socialist Party in Spain.

The Sunni Muslims in Iraq, as it further reduces the desire of the occupiers of Iraq to commit long term. I suspect the Ba'athists are delighted.

by ConspiracyMan Thu Mar 18, 2004 01:16

The great states of the EU: The new socialist government are signing up to the deal on EU voting blocks that Aznar was facing down, leaving Poland isolated and creating a realistic chance of an EU constitution by the end of the Irish presidency. Wozit Bertie dat dun it?

by Phuq Hedd Thu Mar 18, 2004 02:15

QUOTE: " Phugg Hedd (funny name BTW)"
ANSWER: It's Phuq Hedd.

QUOTE: " Good Lord man,"
ANSWER: That would be woman.

QUOTE: " ya completely forgot the very recent, latest overthrow of a democratically elected government ALA President Aristede."
ANSWER: No I didn't. That'd be in the post immediately above your last one where I mention "Haiti". That's the country of which Aristide is President.

Y'all have a nice day now.

by avi H. Thu Mar 18, 2004 14:18

The Madrid operation was not a branch operation. It was planned in detail by the root, namely OBL and AZ. They received knowledge of Spain's weakness some weeks ago and exploited it. The Spanish were warned but wouldn't listen.

by kokomero Thu Mar 18, 2004 16:34

Just how did Israel get hold of this "information"? From the same source as the supposed WMD in Iraq? "Knowing" that this morsel is true would imply that Israeli intelligence knows where Bin Laden is or can tap into his line of communication. In either case it is very strange if this direct line to Bin Laden has not been exploited by the US/Israel to capture him?? The fact that this "information" has not been exploited means either Israel is going it alone as usual, or it suits the US/Israel to continue to have a bogey man out there, after all we dont see the Israelis of US wearing black ribbons for a few hundred dead Spaniards. Actually there's probably a more straightforward answer, your usual fabrications methinks!

by Intransigent Thu Mar 18, 2004 23:44

So naieve. So sad. Have you read what you wrote. In attempting to show us that nothing is black and white but more a shade of grey all you have actually done is create another black and white situation. That situation being the 'them' against 'us' scenario. Of course there was no CIA training or funding of the mujahideen. They merely where fighting a common enemy and provided themselves with all the training and expertise from books they took out of Riyadh's public libraries. From the comment in relation to the temperament of Arab's I can only assume that your passion for these people is not driven by the greatest of affections. Perhaps by refraining from providing us with such glimpses of your character you're opinion will not be so tainted when we read it. For the moment you really just come across as a rascist whose lack of intelligence is all too obvious.

by Crusader Fri Mar 19, 2004 01:50

The Saudi Kingdon is run on extremist Wahabbi sect religion.

The CIA have certainly no responsibilty for the creating of Al Qaeda.

by Lone Gunman Fri Mar 19, 2004 20:22

The world thru rose tinted glasses.As for racisim you wouldnt know it if it popped out of the crapper and bit you on the ass!!It is a FACT that the terrorists of 911 were Arabs and INMHO what they did makes them ASSHOLES!If that upsets you.Too bad! To a few hundred thousand they are heros.What I was trying to suggest is that there is No them and us situation.
it is more a them,cooperating with us if it is of mutable benefit against the others,maybe if the others will coperate against them somtime. also known as reality in the political world of intelligence.
But maybe that is above your head.

by stranger things Sat Mar 20, 2004 01:37

1. Professional planning + execution,
2. No warning @ rush hour to max casualties,
3. Outrage public opinion through (apparently) politically and propagandistically counter-productive Slaughter,
4. Have controlled media primed for knee-jerk response, hysterical calls for
5. Package of repressive emergency legislation waiting in wings for rubber-stamping by puppet (EU) parliament,
6. Very useful as permanent instrument to consolidate political control, silence dissent, leaving free to
7. Accelerate own agenda - condition population for endless War to exterminate Muslim Foe as cover for establishing High-Tech Middle-Age of Full Spectrum ImperioCapital Domination - from down in your most secret thoughts up to the laser-cannon in space.

The only refinement in this case consists of the elaborate efforts made to lay a semi-convincing 'evidence' trail pointing towards the chosen 'perpetrators', which group will be the most obvious target of the resulting crack-down.

Question for Infidels: Now which moral-fibre-shitting 'Western' establishment(s) would be up for such cold-blooded skullduggery?

by Herman Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:14

Indeed, indeed. And we may well wonder why the Dublin-Monaghan bombings were not properly investigated, and what happened to the debris? and what happened to the files?

As for the rhetorical question of which establishments "would be up for such cold-blooded skullduggery?"
There are none within the top levels of the western establishment who are not capable of using their own populations as cannon fodder for their own ends, as we have seen so many times in the past. And if the populations are unwilling to march to the battlefields as they did in the past, then the establishments have no qualms about bringing the battlefields to the population.

by Sandra Sat Mar 20, 2004 23:11

The reaction of the then, and later, Irish Governments is astounding. Its almost as if they do not want to get at the truth. People here at the time must have felt extremely intimidated, not being able to bring the real culprits to justice, and not even getting straight answers from their own government.
I wonder to what extent the government and security forces were infiltrated by the British at that time, and probably still are? How else would piles of evidence just vanish into thin air?
Is it not time to bring all of this out into the open? We cannot keep pushing this under the carpet.

by Sean R. Doyle Sun Mar 21, 2004 15:42

The thirtieth anniversary of the massacres in Dublin and Monaghan are coming up in just under two months. No doubt the politicians will make some appropriate noises and shed some crocodile tears, and when the anniversary has passed they will hope that it will fade from our memories and they can shove it on the back burner again.
They are not prepared to deal with it because it would mean upsetting the British establishment, and that would not do, would it? It "would just not be cricket". We can't be going upsetting the brits, can we?