Discuss: The Regime Change in Iraq as an End in Itself

by Tufty Thu Mar 18, 2004 13:49

The fact is we don't really know the answer to most of the questions except the world is certainly not a safer place. I don't think that is the point!

The only way to "win a war against terrorism" is not to wage it. Israel / Palestine , Northern Ireland etc. should prove this.

In 1972 Dr Garret Fitzgerald visited relatives and friends in Derry after bloody sunday and ordinary people were saying "isn't it great all the young lads are joining the IRA". This is being repeated all over the muslim world as a direct result of US imperialism.

Unfortunately innocent people on "both sides" will die while bush etc. sit in their ivory towers.

My question is where did Hussain get the $750,000 he was found with last year. I reckon the Republican party should ask for it back as they financed him in the 80s!!

by Phuq Hedd Thu Mar 18, 2004 01:46

Here's another sophomoric insult to humanity:

"DISCUSS: economic improvements in Germany after Hitler took power."

Don't forget to ignore the people being killed, the lack of democracy, the people tortured.

by SP member Wed Mar 17, 2004 17:15

Iraq
One year on
March 20th marks the first anniversary of the US led imperialist war on Iraq.

cwi statement
Despite the fall of the hated dictator, Saddam Hussein, quality of life has plummeted for the majority of Iraqis. Lawlessness grips the land. Young people face a life of grinding poverty and unemployment. Social infrastructure is in tatters and with no sign of real improvement. And now fears of ethnic and religious conflict, possibly leading to civil war, abound.


http://www.socialistworld.net/index.html

by Eoin Dubsky Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:44

To be in any way fair you must compare pre-Gulf War Iraq, and not just Iraq two years ago, with what people there are faced with today. Rotten as the Bathists were, they did invest much of their country's oil dollars into the health care system and education. Western sanctions and constant bombing over the past thirteen years reduced their civilian infrastructure to rubble. And that was deliberate (Dennis Halliday called the sanctions "genocidal").
So there for we must ask, do Iraqis have access to the same level of education and health care as they did under the Butcher of Baghdad before 1990 (when the leaders of the free world destroyed it)?

by kokomero Tue Mar 16, 2004 18:35

Forget about Bush. Forget about Blair. Forget about oil. Forget about the motivation for the war.

What you really propose is that we forget about Iraq!

Whatever the state of Iraq and it's citizens at the moment in the abstract terms you propose it matters very little if they cannot walk the streets or have any say in the running of their country and the exploitation of its natural resources.

by scarecrow Tue Mar 16, 2004 17:38

one cried, it is so difficult to describe the relief felt in this country where I am that the nightmare never reported in your mainstream media is over.
We couldn't even jump with joy when the votes were counted, the mobiles were still off, la haine was off line, indymedia servers overloaded caused more to think, oh no, they wont accept the result.
Now we have optimism that they will not spy on all of us more, that they will not come and scare us at night, that they will ignore those they hated the poor, the immigrant, the basque.
That optimism will take time.
Yes HB have offered the new government of Spain dialogue to achieve a political settlement to the Basque problem.
Yes okupes feel it less likely that the policia nacional will come with batons and guns through the window at dawn.
Yes republican activists feel it less likely that they will be harrassed and psychologically tortured in Catalonia, and worse in the Basque.
The bags over the head, gone.
The blatant lies from the TV gone.

Yes the witch is dead.

No you didn't realise how bad it was.
No you didn't realise how bad it looked like it was going to be. If we hadn't gone out on Saturday night all over this country, the PP might have won and it would have gone on and on, and got worse and worse.
And no one would have believed us.
They never did. After they would have finished with the Basques they would have moved on to every rojo every Catalanista every anarchist every "morro".


Visca Catalúnya!
Vive España!
Viva Euskal Herria!

our fear is gone.

Now I wish, pray and hope that this happens for the Iraqi people, for the Israeli people for the Palestinians, for the Italians.
when you finally wake up and walk out your door and feel "free" it is so sweet.
so so sweet.
sweetness and light.

by Harpo G Tue Mar 16, 2004 17:21

"And by the way, those questions are nothing but speculative rubbish with no sense of an empiricle grasp. "

They are just questions. Questions I have not seen answered elsewhere. Questions I have not seen asked elsewhere.

by Bogman Tue Mar 16, 2004 17:18

....I suppose it qualifies under "Opinion / Analysis"; one of the headings in the publishing page.

My stab at answers....

(i) Probably will eventually.
(ii) Probably the same. Maybe a little more free.
(iii) Less safe.
(iv) Less free.
(v) Undoubtedly. As do many other world leaders (IMHO).

Basically, the new world order we have since the UNs will was flouted is not a good developement globally.

However, the average Iraqi citizen must be thanking their lucky stars, and hoping the US/UK will exit stage left ASAP and leave them be.

by Free thinker Tue Mar 16, 2004 17:07

You begin by stating 'Leave your politics at the door', followed by "Forget about Bush. Forget about Blair. Forget about oil. Forget about the motivation for the war. Is Iraq a better place now that Saddam has been ousted and a replacement regime is being put in place?" yet the next step completley contradicts the very call for discussion, namely, "The occupying force is still there so we do not yet have a true and fair picture of what Iraq is like now compared to under Saddam and his family."
Then you list questions to ask 'when the time is right', but when will that be? Memory never fades, so whatever stage Iraq will find itself in in ten years time you can rest assured that the politics of today will be very conscious in the minds, politics and actions of tomorrow's Iraqis.
And by the way, those questions are nothing but speculative rubbish with no sense of an empiricle grasp.
Editors, I hope you see fit to delete this rubbish.