Southern Myopia Ignores Elections ?

by %-) - young turks is it? Sat Nov 22, 2003 16:37

atishoo atishoo letting the debate flow...
so eoin c&p's the BBC on Portadown Trimble
getting unpleasant reading:
[from the Portadown Times which incorporates the Craigovan News]
Savage attack
By VICTOR GORDON
--DAVID Trimble’s Ulster Unionist running mates in Upper Bann at at one another’s throats .
Samuel Gardiner and George Savage - both former Mayors of Craigavon - are at loggerheads over Savage’s partial ’defection’ to the anti-Agreement faction of the party.
Former Assemblyman Savage - who has been Trimble’s right-hand man in the Assembly - has met with UUP ‘anti’ veterans Jim Molyneaux and Martin Smyth, as well as a group of Portadown dissidents, opposed to what they see at the Trimble soft line.
But he has also been out canvassing with Trimble and Gardiner, in a show of unity around the hustings.
In the ‘united’ canvass, all three have been delivering the official leaflets with their pictures and policies.
But - in tow with the dissidents - Savage has produced his own individual literature, with no mention of Gardiner or Trimble.
An angry Samuel Gardiner insisted, “He’s trying to ride two horses, purely and simply to project George Savage.
“The three of us were selected by the Upper Bann UUP Association, and now he has moved outside that brief and is lining himself up with people who weren’t selected – in fact, people who failed in the selection process – and I feel he is letting the side down.
“He is seeking the ‘anti’ vote on one hand, yet trying to keep in with David Trimble on the other hand in a bid secure ‘pro’ vote and whatever transfers votes may exist. He’s fooling nobody.
“He made these moves without informing David Trimble or myself, and that is, at best, discourteous. I view it as typical opportunism. He has been hijacked by the people who didn’t make it on selection night and it could turn sour on him.”
But Mr Savage insisted there was nothing wrong with speaking to Messrs Molyneaux and Smyth, “both traditional unionists in the best sense”.
He insisted, “In fact, I want party unity right across the board and I believe I can deliver that unity. I am a traditional unionist, Jim Molyneaux is party patron and Martin Smyth is party president. It is right and proper I should consult them.
“Unionists voters feel confused, and it is only right that the people of Upper Bann should be given a choice – there are many anti-Agreement voters in the unionist family who cannot bring themselves to vote DUP.”
Martin Smyth claimed that concessions had gone too far, “with Mafioso-type politicians allowed into government”.
“This will give Upper Bann a chance to stand against that type of society and reverse the failures of the British Government,” he added.
James Molyneaux claimed that the emergence of George Savage would give the people of Upper Bann “a real choice to vote for a traditional unionist and reverse the trend of terrorists in government”.
And one of Mr Savage’s local backers Robert Oliver – who failed to attract an Upper Bann nomination – said, “In July, almost 40 per cent of the Upper Bann UUP delegates supported my ‘no-confidence’ motion in David Trimble, and the majority of Ulster Unionist voters want an alternative – George Savage is that alternative to unite unionism”.
Mr Trimble, meanwhile, is staying on the periphery of the row, and said he was quite happy to canvass with both men.
“Over the past four years in the Assembly, George Savage has been a faithful lieutenant of mine,” he said. “Samuel Gardiner remains a loyal party member. I expect the same loyalty in the future, and am confident that all three of us will be elected on the principles set out in the party manifesto, to which we have all signed up.”
But Samuel Gardiner was more direct. “People like Robert Oliver, who represent the past, see this as a coup - one in the eye for David Trimble and me,” he said. “Of course, they are entitled to their opinion, but I am looking to the future, and I believe there are more ‘future’ than ‘past’ votes among unionists in Upper Bann, and this double dealing could work against George Savage. Anyone with any political acumen can see right through him.”
Things could not have been tighter between Gardiner and Savage in the 1998 Assembly election, with Savage making iton the last count, just 34 votes ahead of Gardiner.
The first preferences were – Trimble 12,338, Gardiner 1,097 and Savage 669, on a quota of 7,200.
Gardiner was excluded at Stage 11 when he stood at 3420, against Savage’s 3457, a difference of just 37 votes, with Trimble’s transfers the decisive factor.
The other four elected were – Brid Rodgers (SDLP – Stage 1), Dara O’Hagan (Sinn Fein - Stage 10), Mervyn Carrick (DUP – Stage 12) and Denis Watson (Independent Unionist – Stage 13).

***********
The paper appears to be drawing attention to the lack of public health and service investment.
"basic concerns".

by does this mean maybe that no one cares - against british rule in ireland Sat Nov 22, 2003 21:37

I pondered over Eoin's attempt at beginning debate on the northern elections - and also wondered whether it is maybe that most contributores or audience of indymedia just dont care who ultimately sits in Stormont and administers British rule in Ireland.

My respect for the once " revolutionary republican movement" is lost and gone if ever i really held respect or maybe it was a manipulated fear.

It does i must say disappoint to see Mr Adams et al scramble at the behest of the British for their measely scraps of power.

Maybe people would debate elections if they where going to actually take us further or maybe Eoin is happy to encourage all in a debate " for an Ireland of equals" that his party can supposedly bring us while they implement right-wing fiscal policies?

Either way you view the political situation in the north most know that elections will not be the answer to all the problems - and after years of trying to implement the agreement they all signed when are they going to admit that it isn't going to work.

by Realist Sun Nov 23, 2003 01:51

>Would a southern election equally fail to generate much coverage?

Of course not because the Assembly doesn't have anything near the amount of influence of a national parliament.
If you want to make a point here then please at least take the time and trouble to think up a mildly convincing argument rather than just preaching to us from your bourgeois nationalist platform in a manner which is, lets say, not really convincing.

by Jim Bob Sun Nov 23, 2003 04:09

In the south at least there is some class politics not just a sectarian headcount

by Ciara F Sun Nov 23, 2003 04:53

Don't vote for the SP. If they got into power, they would ban any party which has not got a marxist agenda. That's the end of democracy in Ireland.

Show these people your contempt for their agenda by ostracising them at the polls. If they want my vote they'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands.

Same with SWP, BTW.

by sp member (personal capacity) Sun Nov 23, 2003 09:34

Eoin, I suspect the level of interest in the south is a reflection of the mood in the north, over all this has been a dead election.

Ciara F, thanks for the ringing endorsement, I am not sure what you are on about but I take it that you think that in a socialist socity SF, SDLP, DUP and UUP would be banned?
Anyhow I dont think that we are about to be swept into power this time round so you and "democracy in ireland" can sleep easy tonight:)

by 6c Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:45 Occupied

Now Eoin be fair no one up here is that interested, either.

by Cllr Eoin O'Broin - Sinn Féin Sun Nov 23, 2003 20:06 eoinobroin at hotmail dot com

To 'does this matter': This election is about much more than the Assembly. It is also about the future of the peace process and all its component parts. Whatever our individual views of the process and its successes/failures, that does not discount the need for discussion and analysis. Refusing to do so from a smug position of outright opposition simply leaves it to those we disagree with.
 
To 'realist': You are right that Leinster House is a more powerfull institution, but if a Dail election were to determine the future of the state it would generate quite a lot of interest. This election may well determine the future of the Agreement itself. Surely that merits some discussion. Again with reference to your criticisms of my so called 'bourgeois nationalist' arguments, as with 'does this matter' there still needs to be an engagement. Are you suggesting that we sould all just ignore the elections, the Agreement and the entire process. I think not.
 
To 'Jim Bob' there is class politics everywhere, whether people are aware of it or not. And a lot more of it in the north than you think. Even if there werent does that not merit discussion and analysis.
 
To 'SP member', while the media element of the election has been relatively low key, the actual ground campaign has been and continues to be very hotly contended.
 
To '6c' to say that noybody in the north is interested is just nonsense. There will probably be a 68% to 78% turnout. Hardly a sign of a lack of interest.

I have to say that all of the comments to my original posting confirm what I thought. Indymedia is meant to be a discussion centre for progressive and radical ideas, and independent views on current, domestic and international affairs. The lack of real engagement with the Assembly elections suggests that that section of the Irish left who currently engage with Indymedia are guilty of the same myopia which has doogged the southern left for decades. The result is a lack of understanding and a politics based on myth and sterotype. Its a pitty because the stakes in this election are serious and need discussion.

The old complaint that many in the northern left -republican and non republican- that our southern comrades knew more about other countries than they did their own seems to be as true today as it was in the eighties. What a shame...

by Dermot - DAWC Sun Nov 23, 2003 20:57

Eoin you have some justification for saying that the left North and South are ignoring the Northern elections, except in their fantasies that they might get some reasonable vote for Eamonn McCann and then claim it as a party vote.

But Sinn Fein doesn't seem to be much different, in the way they totally ignored the US attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq, until they saw a sizeable support building up and then it was a case of "there go my people I must follow" - yourself being a case in point, you were nowhere to be seen at the early marches. Not a single SFer took part in any of the oranising meetings here in Derry either, except for shortly after the Hillsborough arse-licking exercise when about three turned up at a committee meeting (including a well-known hood and junkie, how times have changed for SF!), took copious notes of the proceedings and were never to be seen again.

So Eoin, apart from yourself as a token representative in Belfast, when is Sinn Fein going to get over its myopia about the greatest imperial power in the world today, and acrively partake in the protest movement? (just to pre-empt your reply, don't bother quoting articles from APRN, or refer to posters which appear overnight - I said active).

by the wee cynic Sun Nov 23, 2003 21:06

Welcome to the political reality of the Free State Eoin .....

South of the border people are not going to get very excited about "a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing."
As long as the "quarrel" doesn't impinge on the daily life of the ailing Celtic Tiger ....

Sad but true ...

Personally I blame it on a half-century or so of Fianna Failure ... the massive corruption of the southern entity ... its gradual enslavement to the land speculators, the money lords and the multinationals ... with the consequent alienation of the masses from the increasingly insipid muppet show of parliamentary politics and the tendancy to dismiss it as an irrelevant distraction from struggle (or capitulation) of their daily lives ....

But I may be wrong ... I certainly stand open to correction ....

by Cllr Eoin O'Broin - Sinn Féin Sun Nov 23, 2003 23:46 eoinobroin at hotmail dot com

Dermot, thanks for the reply. I dont think your characterisation of Sinn Féin's response to the US led attacks on Afghaistan and Iraq is fair.The party had different levels of participation in the mobilisations. Damn poor in Derry, moderate in Belfast and good in Dublin. I think our position was clear and in the context of the competing demands on our organisation we mobilised quite well.

There is a broader problem with the mobilisations however which needs addressed. For a long time a broader base of people, including many republicans have been turned off participating in anti war events. My experience in Belfast during the NATO bombing of Kosovo and the Afganistan attacks are a case in point. Because of the role played particularly by the SWP many other people on the left simply refused to participate. I think the Iraq war changed that, as evidenced in February 15th of this year. But just at the moment when the anti war coalition in Belfast began to form a broad base of involvement, the small left groups messed it up. Hillsborough was a classic example, with a significant event being hijacked by a small interest group for no good reason. All of this simply confirmed in the minds of many that the anti war movement was being undermined by groups like the SWP and in future would choose to stay away. Thus the post Bush visit demos have been embarrisingly small by comparison.

To answer your final question directly. Sinn Féin does participate in the anti war protest movement. However the small size and marginal position of the movement in Irish political life generally is not due to Sinn Féin's myopia, but the narrow sectarian character of some of the small left groups who have made it their business to undermine any attempt to build a broad based coalition of people why despite our many differences agree on one single thing, our opposition to US and British foreign policy in the Middle East, the Balkans, Cuba and elsewhere.

by Dermot - DAWC Mon Nov 24, 2003 00:03

We aren't talking about any other groups lack of participation in the anti War movement, just Sinn Fein. If SF were worried about the SWP messing it up they could easily have swamped them - if they considered the issue important enough. But it only became important when thousands of people appeared on the streets. Evading the question by pointing to SWP sectarianism is simply that - an evasion.

If these issues were really important to the RM, why was there _no_ mention of Afghanistan in APRN during and prior to the US attack on that country?
Why was there no statement from Sinn Fein leaders(except for some token comments by O Caolain)? Why no mention by Gerry Adams in his Ardfheis address that year?

by Cllr Eoin O'Broin - Sinn Féin Mon Nov 24, 2003 00:28 eoinobroin at hotmail dot com

Dermot, you saw we could have swamped the meeting. Im afraid we have a lot of work to do and swamping meetings is not what we are about. If an anti war coalition requires swamping just to get things done then Im not interested.

You say that we are not talking about other groups. I am. This is a real problem. People build up experience of different forms of campaigning and from many republicans experience of the Kosovo and Afghanistan campaigns we were simply switched off, not from the issues, but from working with small organisations who were not interested in the real issues.

To answer your other points...

Sinn Féin leadership figures spoke on all of the NATO and US military interventions including Caoimhín and Mitchell, and many of us spoke against the wars in different platforms including City Council. Republican News dosent cover all things at all times, I wouldent take it as a sign of complicity, just a busy week at the editorial desk.

The thousands of people who came out on the 15th included a large number of Sinn Féin elected representatives, activists and voters. The issue is why have they stoped coming out, despite the continuance of the conflict in Iraq? For precisely the reasons I have outlined.

Here is the nub of the problem Dermot. You and I probably disagree on a whole bunch of things. And despite all the discussion we will probably continue to disagree for a long time. However we have two choices. Either we can work out when we can work together and under what conditions, and make the best effort. Or we can waste valuable time and energy arguing who is really anti imperialist and socialist and whatever, and in doing so waste what little energy we have in building meaningfull campaigns. The problem for a lot of republicans is that we have wasted too much time on the latter and in the absence of the former, decided to get on with the rest of our political work, which is buiding a real political alternative in Ireland.

The one thing I will say is this, we all make choices regarding what to priortise in our political lives. If Sinn Féin are guilty of anything, it is the prioritisation of the domestic over the international. You are right about that, but its a choice which many of us make deliberately, not with disregard to the international, but only because there are only so many hours in the day.

by Dermot - DAWC Mon Nov 24, 2003 01:14

No that won't do Eoin.

>>Sinn Féin leadership figures spoke on all of the NATO and US military interventions including Caoimhín and Mitchell, and many of us spoke against the wars in different platforms including City Council.

Not about Afghanistan you didn't, at any time between 11 September and 7 November, when Kabul was about to fall and the mass murderous bombings had been taking place for five weeks. You dived for cover.

>>Republican News dosent cover all things at all times, I wouldent take it as a sign of complicity, just a busy week at the editorial desk.

A busy week? 11 September to 7 November? Do enlighten us as to which story was more important to the APRN editorial staff.

>>The thousands of people who came out on the 15th included a large number of Sinn Féin elected representatives, activists and voters.

Precisely my point - nothing at all previous to that. You jumped on the bandwagon. And disappeared when you had milked it for what you could get - no different from the SWP but at least they could say they did some work in builidng up towards it. There were at least 3 substantial marches in Dublin before that, not to mention Shannon - No Shinners then!

>>If Sinn Féin are guilty of anything, it is the prioritisation of the domestic over the international. You are right about that, but its a choice which many of us make deliberately, not with disregard to the international, but only because there are only so many hours in the day.

That's a lot of words which simply boil down to: Afghanistan and Iraq are not important enough. Lots of rationalisation to justify that, but for Sinn Fein, there aren't "enough hours in the day" to give consistent support to the antiwar movement. You said it yourself.

by Gearoid Mon Nov 24, 2003 02:26

Maybe that's why we Freestaters don't spend too much time wondering why you Nordies can't get along.

by Jim Monaghan Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:41

Eoin
the reality is that the DUP are only concerned with keeping the Nationalists in thier place, allied with them is probably the majority of the UUP. I think it is guff the nonesense about a pragmatic wing of the DUP after Paisley.The debate in Unionism is about how to destroy Republicanism not on democracy. If the entire Ard Comhairle committed suicide it would not be enough.It is a sectarian state and attempts to make it work on a quasi democratic basis are or at least appear futile. The SF ministers were put into a position of administration without real power ( at least the right to raise taxes) so they decided not on whether to have cutbacks but on where there were to be. A bit like the Labour party coalitionists down here but worse.
The sad reality is that sectarianism is so embedded in Unionism that it will take a sesmic shift to crack it.
To keep being a revolutrionary party SF would have to stay out of coalitions with rightwing parties alas I feel the lure of the Merc especially among the new members and fellow travellers will prove too much.It is interesting that the odd bit of bile from SF (not Eoin)is directed against their former allies on the Left and not against those who supported Section 31 and other repressive measures in the old days. If you ally with the UUP (if they will have you) FF or FG you will go the way of Clann na Phoblachta.Of course this would be "realistic" politics like opposing bans on Coca Cola.
I hope Eoin and those like him win out in SF because I still belive that many if not the majority are still for revolutionary change.
I say the above in the context of supporting the ceasefire the way of the Continuity and the Real are the way to perdition.

by chris loughlin - Lisburn socialist youth and socialist party Mon Nov 24, 2003 14:09

great anlaysis there from SF, people don't turn up to anti-war protests after the WAR IS WON (or not as the case is and maybe). And SF complains about it, im sorry but from that nice Assembly building at Stormount (remember the home of the nearly one-party unionist state for 50years) that SF has been occupying for the last 5 years i thought you said it was the SWP's fault!

the swp's fault that Bush and Blair were able to paint themselves as victor's in Iraq. I'm sorry to say the reality but Bush and Blair did topple Saddam (and i dont think that was the swp's fault either). now there are many reasons as rightly informed would now and do talk about. but, we shouldnt be surprised its SF's usual response to blame everuyone else, a legacy i think of 'its all the brits fault'.

SF ministers implement privatisation policies and wanti-working class policies across the board. Whose fault-it was all the brit governments fault!

Look at the protests in London SF! over 100000 out against the occupation of Iraq. this after 6months into the occupation. we are still in the midst of the biggest anti-war movement ever even if the first few waves may have crested.

Fair play in the elections SF and the DUP have been and had the most sizeable representation in the areas, although big Jef Donaldson (danial odonnel lookalike and dead from the neck down) has been out in my area quitew a bit too.

The Assembly like the SP and SY said it would has institutionalised sectarianism. It is an anti-working class intiative, pro-business, pro-multinational and ultimately pro-imperialist.

What we are seeing is a contradictory and dialectical movement in the policial scene in the North. While SF is being seen by all nationalists as legitamate to vote for, SF has benefitted from the appearance that it is getting what the people of that side want. SF are in the ascendancy and are clearly capable of overtaking the sdlp's vote in the Assembly. What i have found interesting is hat the sdlp are a bit like the Conservative Party in Britain, left with the question what do you do when someone steals your clothes? the sdlp's campaign has mostly centred round trying to scare people about how bad the dup are! hhhmmmm i seem to remember the dup DIDNT have an armed wing the last time ichecked unlike SF.

but, also the flipside of the coin has been that on the protestant side of the political divide because of the institutionalised sectarianism of the GFA and the fact of reality that no real tangible benefit has been delivered the DUP are in the ascendancy.

The GFA is unworkable, it shows the fact that men in suits can come to agreement on things at a certain time ubt , that the actual implementation of this agreement will be a victim of the huge divide. this agreement shows the inevitable failure of Capitalism in Ireland, the only solution is a socialist solution. One genuinely based on the aspirations of ordinairy working people. One that isn't divisive, that puts are common interests first.

On a personal note it's refreshing and wierd when you get to live in a society that isn't schizophrnic (as i did when i lived in the south over the summer). the gap and differnece between politics in the north and south is huge.in the north people are in a general way more aware of class divisions. ni is the most deprived area of the EU and the UK.

As a young person the future does look bleak in the north, especially if its left to the failed pathetic sectarianims and hatred of the pro-capitalist GFA parties.

vote to defend public services.
vote for a real agreement based on both our communities, not putting the interests of one community first, put yourself and ordinairy working people first.

VOTE BARBOUR/BLACK SOUTH/EAST BELFAST
VOTE SOCIALIST PARTY

by Davy Carlin Mon Nov 24, 2003 15:57

Chris

I agree in part with your points on the Anti War Movement. I wondered as to why Eoin reverted to Rhetoric and SWP bashing {in the North}. Then I wondered if it really was a post by Eoin but it now obviously is. I could go into what SF did or indeed as importantly didn't do since the campaign was initiated but have learnt that there is no point. I suggest Eoin rather than to start with the focus at a rant at a different party etc etc why not start by begining at looking at the situation politcally both at home and internationally. Putting that aside if you have ponits or concerns you wish to air then I will of course attempt to address them, if you want to come back on the issue..

To chris putting aside the fair play to the DUP etc, what do you mean that the SDLP are a bit like the conservative party? politically or organisationally. etc

Yep Chris the DUP did not have an armed wing but I suggest you read up on their close associates.

Finally for now I agree 'vote the SP candidates', but what about a call, vote for the socialists candidates SP and SEA etc

Is it really really that hard to say Chris

by the way Mon Nov 24, 2003 20:05

Davy, why are you choosing to stand against adecent working class activist in SIPTU and in the Dublin consitiuency in the Euro elections? The SWP are not genuine about 'left unity'. They are sectarians.

by me Tue Nov 25, 2003 00:07

Fair play to the SWP they call for a vote for sp candidates even though the SP rejected alliance proposals.
I was wondering why the swp dont call for a vote for the WP who they proposed going into an alliance with?

by Benny B Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:56

Their are a number of simple reasons for the failure of southern people to become exercised by the situation in the north as regards elections.
Firstly there has been alot less media coverage than usual especially in the Independent Group of Newspapers. I believe they have finally come up with a coherent strategy for dealing with the Shinners. Instead of constant over the top slagging off SF and SF voters they have decided to try and cut of the Oxygen of publicity on which sf survives. this i believe they will hope could prevent major breakthroughs for sf in southern locals.
Secondly and last nights q and a on RTE was illustrative- there seems to be very little difference between major parties on either side of the sectarian rubicon. Its sad because many people believed the provies were serious about socialism or some socialist policies. But its clearly not the case. Populism and liberalism rule the day. I could go into SF duplicity on service charges or PFI or Taxation policies (deliberatly fudged in last election in south so as not to alienate the middle classes). Many people in the south have reached complete apathy because as SF runs for the middle ground they realise that they are sadly as compromised as the jaded lot of gombeens we have in this state.
Also and this is the final reason i'll give. The assembly is a joke. If functioning there will be 100 plus seats for six counties. In the south we have under 170 for 26 counties. Why not spend the money on solving actual social problems instead of supporting the hacks of party politics.

by John Meehan Tue Nov 25, 2003 17:40

Davy Carlin is is dead right here :

"Finally for now I agree 'vote the SP candidates', but what about a call, vote for the socialists candidates SP and SEA etc

Is it really really that hard to say Chris"

It will not do for Socialist Party members, or others, to bring up examples of SWP misbehaviour elsewhere - for example, legitimate criticism of the SWP attempt to run a candidate against Des Derwin in the forthcoming SIPTU Elections.

I do not agree with everything the SP says and does in Dublin - and, like the SWP, on occasion the SP has made politically sectarian mistakes -

but I still voted SP (Joe Higgins) in the last European Parliament Elections, and encouraged others to do the same.

There is no point in waiting for the perfect utopia - Vladimir Lenin's remarks on the Dublin Easter 1916 Rising come to mind. The Russian Bolshevik criticised Karl Radek and others for being too critical of the efforts of Connolly Pearse and their comrades : "those who expect a perfect revolution will never live to see it...". (or something like that!)

Those who "expect to vote only for the perfect socialist candidate will never...."[fill in the blanks yourself!]

Finally a word to Eoin :

It is good to see some candidates who do not wish to "implement" institutionalised sectarianism -

that sums up the reason why many people with left wing views in the South are disinterested in the Northern Elections. They can see that voting for any four of the main parties - UUP, DUP, SDLP, SF - only means a minor cabiner reshuffle -
a few different faces "implementing" exactly the same policies of "institutionalised sectarianism" and "class collaboration" :

B de Brún in Finance rather than Health? Durkan to close hospitals instead of an SF Minister?
Ian Paisley Junior in charge of Culture? Trimble takes charge of Agriculture?

More or less positive : a Fianna Fáil or a Fine Gael led coalition government?

Many Left wingers in the South concluded long ago that such a "choice" equals tweedledum versus tweedeldee.

by Chekov Tue Nov 25, 2003 18:01

Nowadays the only people who really care about elections are those who are part of a political project that sees electoral success as central to that project. Most other people quite correctly see them as being less interesting than united's match on Saturday. We have actually had a fair amount of discussion from the SWP and SP about their electoral campaigns in the North, and a few by SF. When the local elections get close in the South we can expect to have a good few articles from the same parties with a few extra independents and small groups thrown in. These people are interested in the elections, not in their own right, but because they see them as a building block in a larger political project. The rest of the readership, who largely don't subscribe to any of these political projects, will respond with similar indifference.

It all boils down to the meaning of elections. In this age of global capitalism, even national parliamentary elections simply amount to choosing global capitalism's local management team. The council elections are nothing more than choosing Fianna Fail's local administrators, and the northern assembly elections are very much a choice of who administers the British government's rule in the North.

I saw a 'debate' between the parties a few days ago on UTV. Martin McGuinness was asked about SF's hypocrisy in implemementing PFI, when the party was officially supposed to be against it. He responded by saying that they were against it politically, at a central level, but they had no power there, so they had to implement it in the local areas which they represented. Of course we all know that SF will never have the control at central level to actually do anything about their opposition to PFI.

Next Martin changed the subject and started childishly attacking the SDLP about water charges!

In the north in particular there is a very clear pattern of dealing with electoral threats. You take the powers away from the local areas where some uncontrollables look like they might get elected, then you allow them to get elected with no choice but to implement the policies that they are supposed to oppose.

Elections - a mugs game.

by Uncle Joe Tue Nov 25, 2003 18:24

Remember vote Paddy Lynn.

Socialism not Barbourism!!!!

by tahoma Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:10

Chekov,
Just a few points about elections. I think you are dead right to point out that elections to parlaiment or councils are not ways of changing society. COuncils and Parlaiment are not institutions of working people, they do act in the interests of the capitalist class. But I think you are wrong to rule out using elections as a tool.

Many people still do look towards elections as a way of punishing the establishment parties. Whether you like it or not this is true. I think where this mood exists it is our role to provide a real alternative and stand to give a voice to this.

An election campaign can also be used to increase the profile of a campaign. There will in all likelihood be a number of official anti bin tax candidates in the next local elections. The campaigns of these candidates can be used to build the campaign and build non payment.

TO stand on the sidelines and let the corrupt politicians a free run is ultra left in my opinion. I think it would just alienate genuine supporters of the bin tax campaign

by Amohat Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:30

"There will in all likelihood be a number of official anti bin tax candidates in the next local elections. "

You reckon?
I suppose they will all have the SP stamp of approval.

by tahoma Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:37

Yeah I do reckon. As far as I know the SP are standing a load of candidates. THe SWP are standing some and there will be anti bin tax independents standing. I am fairly sure most of these will be backed by the various campaigns. Most people agree that standing in election is a good idea for the campaign, the Anarchist position regarding elections is a very small minority in the campaign

by Amohat Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:43

You actually see the SP supporting SWP candidates and SF ones under one big anti-bin tax banner?

I was just wondering about your use of the word official. What do you envisage as being the criteria for a candidate getting to have the magic word 'official' beside their name.

by tahoma Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:15

By official I mean being endorsed by the various Bin Tax Campaigns at their conferences.

I don't think SF would be endorsed by the campaigns. Among activists SF have been exposed. SF have not been active. I don't think SF would want to be endorsed either

by Amohat Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:28

You can envisage SP members involved in the city campaign endorsing SWP candidates?

by Tahoma Wed Nov 26, 2003 13:20

The SP would endorse any genuine progressive working class activist. Whether an individual SWP candidate fits that criteria is another question.

by often heard Wed Nov 26, 2003 13:26

we always vote the same.

i didn't vote conservative.

I voted for my granny.

I forget how i voted.

by Amohat Wed Nov 26, 2003 13:39

It strikes me that the likelihood diminshed considerably in just a couple of exchanges.

One last question can you see any possiblity that one of the four campaigns might endorse a candidate and them not getting an endorsement from the SP?

by chris loughlin - sp and sy personal capacity Wed Nov 26, 2003 13:57

in derry definitely vote for sea, they are making a stand against usual old sectarian politics.

in omagh vote for the save omagh hospital candidate, i can't remember his name but our comrades in socialist youth have been campaigning and raising money for the campaign there.

davy a question for you, why do you call for a vote for the sp in this election? the workers party are standing candidates and you were in discussions with them for a socialist unity bloc before the election and your not calling for a vote for them. just would like to know why?

la lutta continua
the revolution will proclaim "i was, i am, i shall be"-Rosa Luxemburg, Jan 1919

by Tahoma Wed Nov 26, 2003 14:33

I am sure that the campaigns would endorse genuine working class fighters with a good record of activity in the bin tax campaign. I do not think for one second that they will vote for inactive party hacks with no record and no link to working class struggle.

by pc Wed Nov 26, 2003 14:51

use uk indymedia.uk or or this one?

ain't that the question

just went to check that but there ain't a region for ulster or northern ireland
perhaps a connacht leinster etc divsion would be good as you'd more likely to get some a larger selections of articels when using the filter

by Amohat Wed Nov 26, 2003 14:52

And do you see more than one candidate being the 'official' candidate per ward?
If the answer is yes, do you see more than one party having an 'official' candidate per ward ?
Do you see more than one candidate being the 'official' candidate in DLR?

by Tahoma Wed Nov 26, 2003 14:56

It depends on how many seats people think the campaign could get in any particular ward. In some wards in Fingal the anti bin tax vote could probably get 2 or even 3 elected. I would think that in DLR there is no wards that would get more than 1 elected. The campaing should only endorse the optimum number of candidates. If 2 candidates are chasing 1 seat votes will be lost in transfers.

by pc Wed Nov 26, 2003 15:15

use uk indymedia.uk or or this one?

ain't that the question

just went to check that but there ain't a region for ulster or northern ireland
perhaps a connacht leinster etc divsion would be good as you'd more likely to get some a larger selections of articels when using the filter

by James Wed Nov 26, 2003 15:42

Hope I don't disturb your discussion of socialist candiates too much!

There is undoubtedly some truth in the view that elections are an opportunity for people to advance socialist ideas. Anarchists recognize that elections are attractive because they are an opportunity to publicize certain issues, maybe give some unliked leader a kick in the teeth as well. However this gain is more than offset by its disadvantages.

Elections are by there nature disempowering. You vote for someone to do things on your behalf. Whether the candidate is a decent person or one not is beside the point. The principle of having other people change society for you is conceded. Once the principle is conceded it’s no big step to having a central leadership.

“TO stand on the sidelines and let the corrupt politicians a free run is ultra left in my opinion. “ So what if it is ulta-left. What matters is whether a particular tactic is good, not whether it’s ultra-left. Abstaining AND doing nothing else to oppose the bin tax would be silly. But if it’s possible to have a real grassroots campaign, why dilute it with the distraction of running a few candidates in elections. It takes away from the campaign on the ground.

Anarchists think that the not voting is a good first step in political activity. If you’re still interested and didn’t abstain due to apathy, then the logical step is get involved yourself in changing society. Not voting is not enough of course. But it’s a start. It makes clear in your own head your opposition to the elite and their institutions.

Also there is the fact that as the party develops the lure of electoral success becomes greater and more focus is put on it. Eventually electoral activity becomes the most important activity. When a party is small like the SP this is less apparent. But once it grows, as it might!, the anarchists expect it to go the same route, namely reformism, as every other left party which followed the parliamentary route.

Anyway, I’d find it difficult to knock on people’s doors and say, “I’m looking for your vote but I don’t think that even if I’m elected I can do anything significant to make things better.” It seems like a waste of time if you say this and a little bit dishonest if you don’t. Do the SP (or whoever else) inform people whom they are canvassing that they think “elections to parliament or councils are not ways of changing society”?

Even the gain of publicity could be offset by a campaign to abstain from voting, though it would be a low priority for many of us.
I find elections a bit like a celebrity fight; it’s the plebs’ periodic chance to choose amongst a list of saviours. It is simply isn’t possible for one person (or three or four from the constituency) to represent your views adequately across a range of issues. I might agree with Joe H., for example, on the bin tax, disagree with him on anti-war stuff etc, but under the current system he is supposed to mysteriously know what we are thinking in our heads and represent our views in the Dail.

Elections do provide the façade of democracy which would otherwise be lacking. Why join in the pretence?
http://www.anarchism.ws/writers/anarcho/vote.html
http://www.struggle.ws/wsm/pdf/leaf/ele02choice.html

by Chekov Wed Nov 26, 2003 16:04

"Many people still do look towards elections as a way of punishing the establishment parties."

And many people look towards praying as a way of improving their lives. Why not campaign to get 'proletarian priests' appointed as a way of punishing the establishment clergy?

"Whether you like it or not this is true. I think where this mood exists it is our role to provide a real alternative and stand to give a voice to this."

But you just admitted that electing councillers is not a real alternative!

"An election campaign can also be used to increase the profile of a campaign."

This is nonsense. The campaign does not need a profile, it already has it although most people now think that the campaign has been defeated. By June there will not be any levels of non-payment left if the campaign doesn't come up with a realistic way of building non-payment and resisting non-collection now. We all know that once the tax has been established, there is no chance of it being rolled back.

"There will in all likelihood be a number of official anti bin tax candidates in the next local elections. The campaigns of these candidates can be used to build the campaign and build non payment."

If the campaign conference does endorse official candidates and switches its focus to campaigning for electoral candidates, it will no longer be an anti-bin tax campaign. It will be an 'elect people who are opposed to the bin tax on to a powerless management body where they can deliberate on planning applications and maybe get their name in the papers a few times'. Nobody pretends that electing people who oppose the bin tax to the council is going to have any effect on the bin tax. Thus, if the campaign goes down this route it will cease to exist as a campaign.

"Anarchist position regarding elections is a very small minority in the campaign"

Actually, the vast majority of campaign members abstained in the last local election as they didn't see it making any difference to their lives and will probably abstain again, bin-tax candidates or not. Also the majority of unaligned members will simply leave the campaign if it turns into an electoral thing as they don't have any interest in cavassing for elections.

When you are referring to the 'small minority' position in the campaign, I assume you are referring to the activist meetings and the conference. You probably also know how many unaligned people go to these and how representative they are.

The conference is sure to be packed to the gills with SWP & SP members squabbling about who gets the official nominations. Once the city has been divvied up, the parties will go off and run their election campaigns independently of each other, with copious usage of the anti-bin tax brand, but there will be no campaign. Individual candidates will probably do a few stunts and stuff, but the campaign will be swallowed in each local area by the respective parties' election campaigns. There probably won't even be campaign meetings anymore. I would love to be proven wrong, but I am quite sure that this will be the outcome of any turn to electoralism.

Sure I don't have a problem with SP/SWP/WCA/ISN people running for election, and even using their record of activity in the campaign as part of their platform, but why pretend that this is a realistic tactic for overturning the bin tax? And if nobody can come up with a realistic tactic, wouldn't it be more honest to admit defeat?

by Big Audio Dynamite Homme Wed Nov 26, 2003 18:42

Chekov, I think you may have asked too many hard questions.

by sp member (personal capacity) Thu Nov 27, 2003 08:58

Chekov makes good points about the nature of democracy in the councils but I am sure that he would agree that this issue needs to be debated to the fullest degree so I would like to pose the following questions.

Would the establishment would be happy to see anti bin tax candidates win council seats?

Did the current elected anti bin tax council members used their position to the advantage of the anti bin tax struggle?

Will you call for voters to abstain where there is an anti bin tax candidate?

Would you accept that if you call for abstentions it is likly to have a bigger effect with anti bin tax voters therefore letting other candidates win?

by James Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:17

Can't be waiting for Chekov...
>Would the establishment would be happy to see anti bin tax candidates win council >seats?
Probably not thrilled, but so what? Political activity should aim to further our aims rather than just annoy others. Anti-bin tax candidates will have very little impact on the issue if central government holds firm. We’ll still have to rely on mass opposition, which is diluted by electoralism. The establishment are far more worried about thousands of people actually getting organised and involved in oppositional politics than in a few left councillors being elected.

>Did the current elected anti bin tax council members used their position to the >advantage of the anti bin tax struggle?
I think Clare Daly did. And I expect that going to jail will stand her in good stead for years as it did Gregory in the 1980s. Don’t think Gregory or nominally opposed councillors like Labour did much at all.

>Will you call for voters to abstain where there is an anti bin tax candidate?
Yep. Don’t vote, get active and organised yourself! Also, What if I disagree with her view on, say, immigration, Gardai on the street etc?

>Would you accept that if you call for abstentions it is likely to have a bigger effect >with anti bin tax voters therefore letting other candidates win?
Probably (hopefully it will have an effect), but again so what if pro-bin tax councillors win? If our call not to vote AND to get active DIRECTLY was heeded I would say that this is a major step forward than having anti-bin tax councillors.

The anarchist position on state institutions is clear. You get reforms (which we want, they make life a little better) by piling on the pressure on the ruling class. So mass non-payment, disruption of services, direct involvement of people in decision making are things we’d advocate. I agree that on occasion a few extra Marxist councillors would ease the passage of reforms, but I wouldn’t consider it necessary. When the ruling class are backed into a corner they’ll find a way out; use some high court decision, EU ruling: anything that makes it look like popular pressure isn’t the reason for them backing down. It’s a bad precedent to acknowledge.

But even though the presence of Marxist councillors may, on occasion, facilitate the introduction of reforms, the medium term damage done to the encouraging direct involvement in social activity is being done. And a new elite is in an embryonic stage.

by Joe Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:40

An important debate so probably worth more then one set of answers

"Would the establishment would be happy to see anti bin tax candidates win council seats?"

Yes - all along ' the establishment' have been demanding that the anti-bin tax campaign stand candidates as the 'democratic alternative' to blocking trucks. Unless such candidates get huge votes they will be able to say 'look we said these guys were a minority, and this proves they are'. If they do get huge votes they'll say 'see the system works' (but of course the 'anti-bin tax' councillors will be able to do nothing about the tax anyway).

If by 'the establishment' you just mean the sitting councillers then no they won't be too happy but they are rather irrelevant in the whole equation of the bin tax as they no longer have any power over it.

Either way as Chekov has already pointed out EVEN if the campaign could somehow get a MAJORITY in all 4 councils nothing could be done at that level because the government have removed the 'power' of local councils in that capacity.

In the longer run the election is very well designed to take in confrontational political groups (not just parties) with some real on the ground activity and churn out politicans. In the longer run the establishment would find a growing movement that choose to boycott that process of co-option a lot more threatening then one that caused a minor hiccup by unseating a handful of councillers or even TD's.

In the past the electoral process has proven itself time and time again capable of taming those who insisted they could not be tamed. The trajectory followed by the Workers Party -> Democratic Left -> Labour Party is a very relevant example as the WP strategy was similar in many respects to many of the anti-bin tax parties looking at contesting the local elections. Indeed in one case they have already been down that particular road.

I'm guessing you are a SP member and are probably confident as the rank and file of the WP were in their day that your party is immune to this process. If so the lesson is that many of the WP members remained true in some form to the original politics and as a result found the 'new party' simply left them behind (with the emergance of DL) or they were forced to split off.

"Did the current elected anti bin tax council members used their position to the advantage of the anti bin tax struggle?"

You'll have to be a bit more specific here. Your obviously not talking about those who were jailed because most of those jailed were not council members or even aspiring council members. Your also obviously not suggesting that their council membership helped stop the introduction of the tax or non-collection as both these things happened anyway.

You might be referring to their ability to get information on payment levels from the council but in fact the value of information by that route was limited as it was 'spun' so that 'payers' are counted as those who have paid anything over the 3 years. Freedom of Information Act enquiries proved more useful in that respect and in any case councillers like Tony Gregory who are not part of the campaign in any meaningful sense were also getting the information.

I may have missed something, perhaps you could enlighten me?

"Will you call for voters to abstain where there is an anti bin tax candidate?"

I don't know how actively we will do this but if your asking "will you lie to people and suggest that voting for a 'anti bin tax candidate' could abolish the tax" the answer is no. Will we argue "If voting changed anything they'd abolish it" then probably yes, this is a rather good example after all where the government has moved to abolish the releavnt power long before the election happens.

In any case our previous work around elections has not been to try and convince voters to abstain but rather to politicise the decision most will have already made not to vote and to thus encourage them to activities that can make a difference. Whereas every other political organisation lines up to tell such people they are being foolish not to vote we say they are being wise and recognising the election farce for what it is but that change is still possible by other means.

"Would you accept that if you call for abstentions it is likly to have a bigger effect with anti bin tax voters therefore letting other candidates win?"

Seeing as we reckon the elections will make no difference I don't see why we should care who wins except as being some sort of indication of where people who bother to vote are at on the issue. And I've already ruled out lying to people by pretending we think their vote will make a difference.

I would expect that there may be some boderline 'to vote or not' people who will find a justification for not voting in our material. I would expect that people who have been active with us on the ground will be interested in what we have to say and some may find themsleves convinced by this.. So yes there probably will be a small detrimental effect in some places, this is largely irrelevant to us.

Again if your saying 'look I really want my candidate to get elected so could you pretend that you think it will make a difference' our answer is no.

Beyond this our analysis of the water tax campaign was that the elections had a negative role. They allowed the media and others to create a 'history' in which a by-election rather then mass non-payment was the key to defeating the tax. This has negative implications each time you try and build similar struggles in the future.

So the problem here is that from each of our different points of view we think the tactics the other may adopt will be damaging. You worry about losing votes, we worry about elections disempowering people and turning activists into politicans.

The theory of anarchist opposition to parliamentary 'democracy' is outlined in some detail at http://struggle.ws/rbr/rbr5/elections.html

A complete index of articles on the topic plus leaflets and posters we have produced is at http://struggle.ws/election.html

by ipsi Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:48

There are "ulster ethnics" who use indymedia and have used it for a long time. They read indymedia ireland and occasionally put comments, but prefer to hang out on the UK main site. I left a series of articles exploring the meaning of Orangeism for last July 12, and this provoked response "on a global scale" from some of these indymedia activists, who referred to indymedia ireland as "Sf indymedia", and came accross as a bit "put out" at first, then a wee bit more "accomodating". It is interesting that this section of the community in "northern ireland" have not sought to form a specifically "northern ireland/ulster" imc, neither in UK or here in Ireland. I'd feel very happy to invite "progressive" "protestant" writers to either site, or even to the forthcoming "Manx" imc project, but like there isn't enough of them it appears...
Let's see how many seats they counted.

by Fingal Vice Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:57

The November edition of the Fingal Voice. Thanks to Fingal resident for the copy.
Page 1
Contrasting bin jailing with Ansbacher and revenue fraud.
Look a bit like the WSM headline. Instead they have "one law for them - another for the rest of us". The one isn't replaced with no.
Only mentions the jailing of 13 other people. Must have been printed before the last seven were jailed and also therefore no mention of the 'openly known tactic" of signing waivers and returning them to Dublin City Council. No mention that the other 13 people were from the city campaign. In fact none of the other campaigns or groups involved get a mention. Throughout this paper you can plainly see the SP's vainglorious outlook.

Page 2
Clare Daly's column
Pieces on privatisation, taxation and the betrayed bin workers.

Page 3
Joe Higgins column
Joe's prison work, the impact of the tax on the environment.

Page 4 & 5
Ruth Coppingers column
The campaign to date. Again it gives the impression that the campaign is only being fought in Fingal. I appreciate that this is a Fingal centred publication but Fingal isn't an island, no matter how much the SP might wish it to be.

Page 6
Meet and greet the candidates
Introduces the candidates with some beautiful phrases. "A massive political and media onslaught has taken place in the last month against residents involved in the Anti-Bin Tax campaign, and the Socialist Party in particular, in an attempt to distort the issues". (oh diddums)
I'm not sure the non-alligned activists would feel the same particulary the women who were hounded because they had waivers.
Candidates for Fingal are as follows; Mulhuddart - Ruth Coppinger, Helen (Who?) Redwood. Swords - Clare Daly, Michael O'Brien. Balbriggan - Tadhg Kenehan. Howth - Brian Greene. Castleknock - Susan Fitzgerald.
Also says that the Socialist Party "stands for election on a clear platform". (Just don't ask about the internal structures on a public forum)

Page 7
Article on the unpopularity of the FF/PD government

Page 8
Join the SP page
Particularly liked "If we are going to fight this system we need to be"political" - and the best political banner for working class people to fight under is the banner of the SP. It is no accident that the one political party which is clearly on the rise as a result of the bin tax struggle is the SP. The interests of the SP and the interests of the working class are totally and utterly entwined. When working class people people rise up to fight back the Socialist Party is lifted"
Lifted? Oh very New Labour! (Lighthouse Family blag) How about for the locals Vote SP! 'Things can only get better!!
Also no mention throughtout of Leon Trotsky, Permanent Revolution, Lenin etc, so I'm not sure how entwined the working class feel with the SP.

by reuters. - less myopic than fingal sp. it seems. Thu Nov 27, 2003 15:54

By Andrew Cawthorne
BELFAST (Reuters) - Hard-liners on both sides of Northern Ireland's sectarian divide did well in this week's election in the province, a poll on Thursday showed, clouding prospects of a quick return to home rule.

The Catholic IRA guerrillas' political ally Sinn Fein and Protestant preacher Ian Paisley's hard-liners both made gains on their moderate rivals, according to the exit poll after Wednesday's elections to Northern Ireland's suspended power-sharing assembly.

If final results due on Friday leave those parties dominant, it would be tough to quickly revive the dormant assembly -- centerpiece of the 1998 Good Friday peace pact -- as Paisley has refused to work with Sinn Fein.

In what amounted to two parallel ballots on Wednesday, Sinn Fein gained 20 percent of first preference votes versus 16 percent for the moderate Catholic SDLP party, Irish state broadcaster RTE said a poll of 1,500 voters had shown.

The survey, by Belfast-based firm Millward Brown Ulster, also showed that among Protestant voters, the fiery but aging Paisley's Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) caught up from the last election on the moderate Ulster Unionist Party (UUP).

Both scored 25 percent.

RTE said however that the exit poll, the only one carried out during the ballot, may not accurately reflect final results.

"Exit polling tends to under-estimate the Sinn Fein and DUP achievement, so the advance in both those camps could in theory be even greater," Millward's Stephen Young told Reuters.

Analysts said a relatively low turnout of about 60 percent, versus 68 and 69 percent in other ballots of recent years, had benefited the radical parties because their voters were more motivated.

"There were more biscuits than electors at my local polling station," Belfast analyst Eamon Phoenix said, attributing the low turnout to political disillusionment and foul weather.

Paisley's party also benefited from a growing perception among pro-British Protestant unionists that the 1998 deal was a "sellout" to Catholic republicans.
And Sinn Fein leaders Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness -- called "terrorists" by Paisley -- proved a bigger draw to Catholics than the SDLP's tamer leadership.
London and Dublin had backed the moderate parties in the much-delayed election, hoping they would hold sway with a clear mandate for talks to revive the assembly.

The home rule legislature was suspended a year ago as allegations of an IRA spying ring shattered the political truce.

The moderate UUP and SDLP had led the assembly after a 1998 poll.

Their leaders shared a Nobel peace prize for the Good Friday pact, which ended the worst of 30 years of violence costing at least 3,600 lives but ushered in a new era of political feuding.

DUP and Sinn Fein dominance would polarize the province's politics, although if the DUP and David Trimble's UUP share leadership of the Protestant community, there will be more room for maneuver.

Some analysts also said the presence of a modernizing wing within the DUP, plus the possibility of a major and transparent IRA arms-scrapping gesture, could also help bring about an agreement.

But nobody was underestimating the difficulties.

"It is all to play for," Phoenix said. "There will be nothing achieved by Christmas but by March we will know if we have a viable assembly or if it remains mothballed for years."

Official counting began on Thursday and was expected to take until late Friday due to the complexities of Northern Ireland's unusual "single transferable vote" system of proportional representation.

-- Additional reporting by Kevin Smith in Dublin and Alex Richardson in Belfast

by pat c Thu Nov 27, 2003 16:16

Black 176 votes 0.6% in East Belfast

by Mulhuddart trot Thu Nov 27, 2003 16:43

How dare you not know!

Helen will be a champion of the sizable Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender community in Mulhuddart.

by Hot Trot - HMSP Thu Nov 27, 2003 16:52

Surely we deserve better than that in East Belfast? Didnt we support the Jaffas right to trample over the Taigs? Theres no pleasing some people.

by Steelie Thu Nov 27, 2003 17:24

167 votes (0.6%) in South Belfast. Ouch.

by Steelie Thu Nov 27, 2003 17:36

Marion Baur (SEA/CP) East London[sic]Derry - 137 (0.4%)

by Hebe Thu Nov 27, 2003 18:10

Will the SP now admit that they are totally irrelevant in the North? They touted Barbour as being a workers leader yet he has gotten a derisory vote. If Peter Hadden is the Norths leading Marxist commentator then it doesnt say much for Marxism in the North.

by Puppy watch Thu Nov 27, 2003 18:15

The puppies must have been confined to the kennels or they have been placed in quarantine.

Failing that, perhaps they are licking their wounds after the dismal showing of their PUP loving friends up North.

by Henrietta Street mouse Thu Nov 27, 2003 18:29

McCann 2257

Feel the sexual tension in Henrietta Street.

by Counter Thu Nov 27, 2003 18:32

Well, what do you have to say SP?

by Steelie Thu Nov 27, 2003 18:35

2257 - 5.5%

Looks like 2 SDLP, 1 DUP, 2 SF are certain. sixth seat between SF & SDLP with UUP and SEA an outside bet.

by sp member (personal capacity) Thu Nov 27, 2003 19:52

Indy media readers should have no doubt that the sp are extremely proud of the fight put up by our candidates. Frankly we had no illusions about how the vote would go the point was to lay a basis for further work in these areas and that was done.
On other candidates.
E McCann has acheived a very good result going beyond the 2000 expected and word is Deeny in Omagh is comming in strong in the first count.

by dando Thu Nov 27, 2003 20:15

Well done to Deeny on his election. His election shows that there is room for some class politics in the North. Good result also for McCann, the other SEA candidate and the 2 SP candidates.

Chekov,
Just a few points.
Most campaign members did in fact vote in the last elections. I don't know where you get the idea that they are all secret anarchists that abstained in principle.

The election campaign of anti bin tax candidates CAN be used to build the campaign. If the anti bin tax campaign stood aside and let the establishment a free run, it would give the impression that we are defeated, this would of course not be true. But standing aside like this while the people who voted in the tax get off the hook would be act as a blow to the campaign.

By going out canvassing and talking to people during the election the profile of the campaing WILL be increased. It WILL increase non payment and show to the mass of anti bin tax people that we are still here.

Your position on elections is an ideological one. You are against standing in elections for bourgeois institutions. It's your right to hold that position. I think it is wrong and ultra left, people CAN stand for elections to an institution without selling out and without thinking that that institution will bring real change.

by Chekov Thu Nov 27, 2003 21:51

"Most campaign members did in fact vote in the last elections"

I said in the last _local_ elections. The turnout was something like 30%, if I remember correctly, lowest in the working class areas where the campaign is strongest. Now, I'm not claiming that people abstained because of anarchist principles - that would be very silly of me - but I am sure that the level of abstention was so high because people realise that the result wasn't going to make a difference. I don't subscribe to the right-wing myth about apathy. If people can see a point in doing something (especially something that is as easy as voting), they will do it.

Why can't the campaign canvass people and not run for elections - I know that I have done this and it is effective. I really don't see how canvassing for people in the local elections can possibly help the campaign.

KNOCK KNOCK
- "hello, I'm looking for your vote for X, he's an anti-bin tax campaigner"
- "So will getting him elected get rid of the bin tax?"
- "No, he'll be powerless to do anything about it, even if the whole city votes for him and his comrades."
- "So, why should I vote for him?"
- "He'll raise the profile of the campaign."
- "But what use is that to me if they stop collecting my bins?"
- "Err, vote for X, he's against the bin tax."
- "And what should I do if they fine me for leaving out my bins without paying"
- "Err, vote for X, he's against the bin tax."

Although I'm sure that such an honest conversation is not going to happen in the local election campaign.

The point is that, unless we have a strategy for defeating non-collection and sustaining non-payment, it doesn't matter how many people we canvass, or how much the profile is raised, we're still going to be defeated.

Incidentally, I find your use of language amusing. I have never refered to parliament as a bourgeois institution in my life, I oppose electoralism as it is disempowering. Also, you might think that ultra-left is a term of derision - to me it's just funny that you dinasours still use terms like that as insults.

by Mockle Thu Nov 27, 2003 22:58

Are you serious? A doctor campaigns for a hospital, fair enough, and he gets elected because of a big transfer of mosty middle class voters from the SDLP - and you say that's a sign of class politics? Your head's up your hole.

by Peter Hard-on Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:02

What's wrong with the working class in the two constituencies where we ran?

Did they not realise that they are totally and utterly entwined with the SP?

by Me Fri Nov 28, 2003 14:16

Compare and contrast

Chekov has raised a couple of times now that the campaign will be beaten if we don't have a strategy to defeat non-collection.
And the response to this nada, zilch, nothing, zero - you get my drift.

Chekov sets out his well known position on elections and in rush the attacks.

Discuss.

by Cieran Fri Nov 28, 2003 19:30

Chekov,
A couple of important points….
You say..“The campaign does not need a profile, it already has it although most people now think that the campaign has been defeated”
What the fuck are you talking about? Who thinks the campaign has been defeated? In the last two weeks there have been public meetings held in Santry, Donaghmede and Raheny. Each of these meetings were fairly well attended and have formed local committees to try and kick start the campaign in these areas. Public meetings are being organised for Kilbarrick and Edenmore (Obviously, all this work should have been done well before now but that’s another story…..). In the stronger areas activists are working to further strengthen their campaigns. In Cabra we have raised over €2,000 for the legal defence at two anti bin tax benefits. Public meetings are being held in other areas.
If the campaign is defeated….. why wouldn’t the Council give us the figures for non-payment? We had to get a FOI Act request to get the figures they were trying to hide. Have you seen the figures? ONLY 37% of people in the Dublin City Area have paid in full. Last years figures were 27 %. I don’t think a 10% slippage in non-payment is significant in light of the legal threats, the debt collector threats, the jailings, the massive media onslaught after the blockades, the threat of non-collection etc….. Taking into account the ‘phantom’ campaigns and the areas where there is no campaign, I think a figure of 37% payment across Dublin relativity good.
If the campaign is defeated……how come the Council have still not been able to consistently implement non-collection in ANY area in Dublin? In Coolock, Donnycarny, Raheny, Donaghmede, Kilbarrick etc… the campaign have forced the Council to collect almost all bins. Unfortunately it has mostly been people from outside these areas who have done all the work on stopping non-collection, most notably Finglas, East Wall and Ballybough. In Mount Tallent on the southside the campaign have also managed to disrupt non-collection. The Council still hasn’t the balls to come into areas like Cabra, Finglas, Crumlin, Ballyfermot etc… These areas are where the real battle will take place when they try to stop collecting our bins.
However, I do agree with you that the campaign is missing important issues and opportunities in its headlong rush into electionism. Too much energy is being spent looking forward to the local elections and if we don’t maintain the current levels of non-payment the campaign will be dead before June. But I think a defeatist attitude like yours will only disillusion even more people.

by Chekov Sat Nov 29, 2003 13:44

I know that the campaign has not been defeated and that the corpo hasn't even dared to try non-collection in any of our strong areas. However, since the campaign has been out of the media for the last few weeks, most people assume it was defeated. Unfortunately the mass media has a greater reach than the campaign does and when the campaign disappears from the media, many people just assume that it has disappeared.

The only reason that I was making the point is because I am concerned that certain people might try to concentrate on the electoral route during the conference, rather than the much more important matter of devising a strategy to defend non-payment and deal with non-collection.

by Tahoma Sat Nov 29, 2003 19:14

The primary task for the bin tax campaign is indeed to build non payment. But we must also prepare for the elections, they can be used to build the campaign by using the publicity of the camapaign to build non payment and increase the confidence of activists on the ground.

Chekov, you are opposed to elections for ideological reasons. You see standing or not standing as a matter of extreme importance, for most other people they see it as a strategy, sometimes it is useful and benefitial and somethimes not. Please look beyond the dogma and look at what is actually happening on the ground.