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Politicians deliver stalemate and division / other news from SP Belfast Election Campaign
 national |
politics / elections |
opinion/analysis
 Tuesday November 18, 2003 18:31 by SP - Socialist Party
SP Assembly election campaign
DESPITE MONTHS of negotiations, no agreement has been reached on how an Executive will be put in place after the election. At the last minute David Trimble rejected IRA decommissioning moves as not "transparent" enough and a supposedly carefully crafted deal fell apart. The minutely choreographed moves by Sinn Fein, Trimble and the British and Irish governments seemed to be going to plan right up to the last minute. Then Trimble, clearly under pressure from party members who saw the "deal" as unsellable, pulled the plug.
The election is now being fought with no agreement, and very little likelihood of one being reached in the short term at least. What voters are being asked to elect is not so much an Assembly as a set of negotiating teams who will spend months, possible years, squabbling while the British and Irish governments try to convince us that the peace process is still on course.
The recent debacle will most likely strengthen Sinn Fein on one side and the anti-Agreement unionists on the other. To many Catholics, it appears that the IRA moved but Trimble threw its concessions back in its face. It is now almost certain that Sinn Fein will pull further ahead of the SDLP.
It is also almost certain that anti-Agreement unionists of various hues will have a majority over the pro-Agreement unionists after the election, and the DUP may even emerge as the largest unionist party.
The outcome of the election will make the political situation even more precarious and prone to fracture. Hammering out a deal when Sinn Fein is the majority nationalist party and a majority of unionists are anti-Agreement will not be easy.
It is not lack of goodwill or an inability to compromise by the politicians that has brought us to this point. The problem is that the whole basis of the Agreement has been flawed from the outset. There has been no real agreement at any stage, beyond an agreement to differ. The Agreement is based on division and accepts that division is permanent.
Real peace
The Socialist Party stands for a real peace process, based on a genuine unity of the people of the working class areas, not on sectarian politicians agreeing to sit down together while they make sure that people stay divided.
The "peace process" did bring about an opportunity to break the log jam of "traditional" politics here. This was seen particularly at the time of the Forum elections in 1996. A number of new groupings emerged that appeared to challenge the status quo to one degree or another.
What working class people need now is a mass party that represents their independent interests and that is capable of winning support on both sides of the divide. Such a party will emerge through the exposure of the traditional parties when they actually wield power, and through the shared experience of struggles that unite Catholic and Protestant workers.
Socialist Party MLA's will play a vital role in bringing such a mass party into existence. When the Agreement comes up for review they will put forward the policies that favour the working class and young people from both communities. They will argue for an end to the in-built sectarian voting arrangements in the Assembly, for genuine community-controlled policing and for a challenge to the pro-big business policies of New Labour and the main parties.
Stop all sectarian attacks
DESPITE A relatively quiet summer, working class communities across Northern Ireland continue to be racked by sectarian intimidation and violence. Recently there have been petrol bomb attacks on both Catholic and Protestant homes in North Belfast, a sectarian mob has picketed a Catholic ceremony in Carnmoney cemetery and there have been riots in the Short Strand/Mountpottinger area.
By Ciaran Mulholland
There has been a huge upsurge in sectarian attacks since the Agreement was signed.
If we took the word of Sinn Fein, the SDLP and most nationalist commentators the main reason for this increase is the turmoil within the ranks of the loyalist paramilitaries.
On the other hand unionists and loyalists blame the republican movement, arguing that they are mounting a campaign of ethnic cleansing against Protestants.
What is the real picture and how do we seriously tackle sectarianism? The answer is that sectarianism can only be seriously challenged, and ultimately defeated, when it is identified and opposed in all its forms.
There is no doubt that there has been a loyalist onslaught against Catholic areas in Belfast and against isolated Catholics in areas such as Antrim, Ballymena, Larne and Coleraine.
This is only part of the picture however. Catholic sectarianism is very real and there have been attacks on Protestant homes, churches, Orange Halls etc.
Every community has the right to defend itself from direct attack but it is important to base this defence on a clear reach across the divide. Genuine defence and a real challenge to sectarianism must be based on community groups and the unions and will only work if it is independent of the sectarian parties.
The unions and community organisations should launch a concerted campaign to end all the attacks and to offer an alternative to sectarian and right wing ideas. Such a campaign will only be successful if it recognises that sectarianism is a problem on both sides of the peace lines.
Oppose racism
Since 1997, reported racist attacks in Northern Ireland have increased by 900%. The announcement of these government figures comes amidst a dramatic increase in attacks on ethnic minorities.
A small group calling themselves the 'White Nationalist Party' (WNP) has been responsible for organising a campaign of intimidation and violence against ethnic minorities.
The WNP have come to Northern Ireland on the back of a racist anti-asylum campaign, which has resulted in attacks upon ethnic minorities in Portadown, as well as Fillipino nurses in Ballymena.
Racist attacks here are actually at a higher level than in England and Wales. A recent study by the NI Equality Commission shows that 16.4 per 1,000 ( compared to 12.6 in England & Wales ) of the minority ethnic population were attacked by racists.
Some politicians have actually contributed to the racist filth being spread by fascists. The building of a mosque in Craigavon was opposed by the DUP because "Muslim prayers are noisy". The former UUP mayor of Craigavon Fred Crowe said "Muslims are out to wipe out Christianity" and even went as far as to attempt to link local Muslims in Craigavon with the 11 September terror attacks!
These racist lies only give groups like the WNP oxygen upon which to feed and grow.
The far-right attempt to scapegoat ethnic minorities for the problems facing working class people. The reality is that successive governments have starved public services in Northern Ireland of adequate funding for decades.
When the Assembly was up and running, all the parties in the Executive carried out privatisation of public services and other anti-working class policies.
Working class people, of all colours and religions, have suffered because of these right-wing policies. Groups like the WNP are opposed to working class people uniting to defend our jobs, services and conditions.
That is why the fight against racism and fascism is linked to the fight for a socialist alternative to the right wing parties and the capitalist system they defend. Socialist Youth will continue to campaign against the rise of racism and will vehemently oppose all fascist activity in Northern Ireland.
By Ciaran Mulholland
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Comments (91 of 91)
Jump To Comment: 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1The SPs secretiveness about how it operates, and its aversion to open discussion, reminds me of previosu discussions about its inherently cultic nature. It is ridiculous to say that this is driven by concern about the state finding out!! For goodness sake, they can if they want to - and probably know all about it already. The SP is just trying to create a mystique where it isn't necessary, and avoid the type of defence of its practices that might just expose its members to genuine debate about the best way forward. Very unedifying....
At every SP Conference the slate of candidates nominated by the outgoing National Committee is elected. You know that and so does every SP member who has attended a SP conference or read details of the results. The leadership is a self perpetuating dictatorship.
That says sometning about the openness of the SP. I dont see how this information would be of interest to the state. But it is of interest to people who are trying to build non-hierarchial organisations.
It's not a question of being embarrased. This is a public forum, anyone including the state has access to this forum. As I said before, if you are genuinly interested, contact someone in the SP
Why do the SP consider discussing matters such as internal democracy as being off bounds to public forums?
It gives the impression that you are embarassed about something?
I am not going to discuss the internal affairs of the SP on a public forum.
If you are genuine why don't you contact a SP member. They will tell you some of the details of the elections over the past few conferences.
When did a branch last go against the National Committe regarding nominations?
When did the Conference last/ever overturn the outgoing National Committes nominations for the incoming one?
Any branch are entitled to make nominations.
The election of the various committees are discussed fully beforehand in all branches not just on the national committee.
You really think its ok for the outgoing National Committee to nominate the ENTIRE incoming one?
Only a fool would regard that as being democratic.
Any branch can and do make nominations. The national committee are also entitled to do so.
In the SP at the Conference, the outgoing National Committee nominates the incoming one! This new National Committee is then "democratically" elected.
I'm beginning to think this might be the party for me. No rules - sounds good.
Again there is no rule.
I was wondering how long before a member can become a candidate to represent the party?
There's no time restrictions. Any member can stand for any body they wish.
One other, question, how long do you have to be a member of the party before you can become a candidate?
All the elections take place at conference every year
If you are interested in the party you should visit the website or contact us. The contact details are on the site and in the phone book.
I'm interested in joining the SP, can you tell me how elections work within the SP?
How are you governing bodies constituted?
What is the manner of voting for your National executive. How do you get elected to the world governing body? Etc.
SP calls for all officials to be elected and subject to immediate recall.
Of course the SP is in favour of elections.
Please stop trolling and throwing mud in a vein attempt to get something to stick
Joe supports SP! Now thats really news. I wonder if Joe H would allow elections if the SP ever got in the drivers seat?
The SP are being disingenuous by trying to pretend that they hold the same views as the residents. If this was the case then the SP would clearly say that the parades should not go ahead in the abscence of agreement.
The behaviour of the OO at Garvaghy & Lr Ormeau is well known. Surely under these circumstances the SP should say quite clearly that the parades should not go ahead in the abscence of agreement.
In the case of the Garvaghy RD 12 people, including 2 RUC members have been killed by loyalists to assert their right to march. I have already detailed the Lr Ormeau.
This is no academic discussion in the abstract. Surely an organisation like the SP should be able to stand with the residents against naked sectarian aggression and murder.
To talk about the Garvaghy RD and Lr Ormeau as being arterial routes is a despicable cop out for people who say they are Revolutionary Socialists.
Letter of protest handed into Government Offices
Water tax protest by Joe Higgins and Jim Barbour into NIO Minister's office
24 November 2003 - Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins, recently jailed for leading the mass non-payment of bin charges in the Dublin area, today visited Belfast to add his voice to the opposition to water charges here.
http://www.geocities.com/socialistparty/Election/031124JH.htm
1) The SP opposes the OO. That's clear from any material they have produced that refers to that organisation. However like other reactionary organisations the SP doesn't oppose their right to exist. If they were fascist then the task of physically opposing them even in Protestant areas would be posed. Even the most hardened republicans don't advocate that.
2) The SP opposes secterian marches. The SP especially opposes marches through residential areas that have no rhyme or reason. However when it comes to aerterial routes, main thouroughfares and town centres it's a different kettle of fish. In this case dialogue is proposed about the conduct, route etc of the march.
3) Where there is a greivance on the part of residents the SP demands that the OO listens to the residents and enters into dialogue with them. This postion is echoed by the slogan NO TALK NO WALK. Residents in the Garvaghy road and Ormeau too have demanded that the OO sit down with them.
what about the democratic rights of the residents of the lr ormeau? do they not have the right to live free from sectarian abuse?
are you seriously supporting the right of the OO to trample over the residents?
this is not an academic argument about conflicting rights. the OO have shown by their actions, the 5 fingers, playing the sash as they pass Grahams that they are nothing but sectarian bigots. also they are only marching in most cases to get a bus to go to another march.
surely revolutionary socialists should take a stand and say that the in the abscence of agreement, the people of the lr ormeau have the right to live in peace.
i still havent had any reply about this:
if sf wanted to march up the shankill rd with a republican flute band, past the frizzels, would the sp be calling for talks with local residents?
My understanding is that the SP do not support the OO. The OO is a bigotted organisation. What the SP say is that it is biggoted but not fascist, they do therefore have certain democratic rights
Immediate recall may seem unworkable under the current form of 'democracy' where people are not active or not encouraged to be active in the running of society. Immediate recall is practical where delegates are accountable to those that elected them, I would think that the best way to achieve this is to have delegates elected on a near case by case or month by month basis
surely the starting point of a revolutionary organisation should be that working class people should not be on such parades. they are a manifestation of loyalist triumphalism over catholics. its worth noting that 90 % of the parades down the lr ormeau rd are going nowhere! the OO march down the road to a bus to go to a larger march elsewhere!
it is purely an exercise of rubbing taig noses in the dirt.
Why then did the SP write such things in their own forums yet come here and then deny it?? Sounds a bit fishy to me.
I think the idea that all politiicans would be subject to immediate recall is plain unworkable, just f**ing ridiculous in fact.
One of the major stumbling blocks to talks between residents and the OO has been the setting of pre conditions.
While this position remains marches will continue to be flash points.
Though it has to be said that even where a negotiated agreement has been reached such as Derry the soloution is likly to be temporary and new sectarian clashes will arise because they are not just about marches they are about the deeper devisions in socity.
I am glad to see the SP now officially using indymedia. I hope that putting out the Party's election campaign on the indymedia means that this is now an accepted area of news and debate and discussion for the Party.
A lot of the abuse of the SP on this thread is just that. Abuse. However I think that there are issues that justify some questioning of the SP position and some debate. One of the issues over which I came into conflict with the CWI in the early 1990's was I saw the organization in the North moving to what I considered a position where they were looking at the protestant population as the oppressed minority. However while doing so they could not ignore the oppression of the catholic population in the protestant state for a protestant people. So the SP finds itself trying to straddle the sectarian divide in a way that does not recognize the real history of the North and in a way therefore that is increasingly irrelevant to the situation. I agree with the emphasis on fighting on the day to day class issues and seeking to unite the working class around these issues, but this cannot be allowed to obscure the past. The protestant working class will not be able to break from loyalism unless they recognize what loyalism is. And loyalism means the oppression of the catholic population. This has to be openly confronted. Loyalism also is the division of the working class and thus the oppression and exploitation of the working classas a whole, including the protestant working class, by capitalism. This has to be said. The protestant working class will not be won from loyalism unless loyalism is confronted for what it actually is, a bourgeois ideology the aim of which is to divide and rule the working class.
I was very surprized when I read the manifestos of the SP on this thread. As far as I can see there is no presentation at all of the world situation in which we live. Of capitalism on the rampage internationally, of US imperialism invading Iraq, of the cuts in services in the North being part of the capitalist offensive world wide against the working class, of the capitulation of the labor and union leaders in front of this offensive, of the great inspiring movement against capitalist globalization world wide and the more than 20 million people who marched internationally last Febuary against the invasion of Iraq. I find it very hard to see how any progress will be made in the North unless the situation there is presented as part of the greater international situation. The more the situation is seen in Northern Ireland terms the more hopeless it actually is. The SP manifestos seem extremely parochial.
The debate on this thread on elections and democracy is interesting. I did not know there were so many bourgeois democrats on indymedia. Most of the attacks on the SP here on the issue of elections are from this position. I would like to raise a different point. I do not believe that society can be changed by electing people to a bourgeois parliament. I think that in elections to bourgeois parliaments and councils we have to tell this truth to people. LMV recently ran a candidate for a city wide position in Oakland California. With less than a dozen activists we won 6% of the vote. A major main theme of our campaign was our explanation that even if we were elected we could not solve the problems we were campaigning on, we could not win the demands that we were calling for. We explained that we were running to help build a movement of the working class and all the specially oppressed people and only such a movement could bring about the changes we believed were necessary. We were running to help build such a movement but that the working class people to whom we were speaking would have to take action and fight and organize.
In terms of building such a movement I would like to ask the position of the SP in relation to SEA candidate Eamonn McCann in Derry. I have differences with Eamonn McCann but nobody can say that he is not a serious and genuine candidate fighting against capitalism and for the working class. If the main aim is to build a movement of the working class in the North and internationally then I cannot see any argument for not supporting Eamonn McCann's campaign.I would have to also say after reading an interview with him in The Blanket today that his position appears very relevant to the situation in the North and the need to fight the election there as part of the struggle against capitalisms offensive against the international working class. A good vote for McCann would be a step towards building a broader anti capitalist movement in the North.
John Throne.
I have never siad that FF should be outlawed after a socialist revolution. I don't think I have ever posted anything saying 'smash FF', if I did it certainly never meant in the sense of banning the party. As long as a party is not fascist and they do not use arms to overthrow democracy I have no problem with them organising and standing in elections etc.
Probably very few individuals and organisations are without sin when it comes to descending to personal abuse however pointing to a past case of abuse isn't really justification to descend to it yourself.
to register my complete un-interest in whether or not Marc Mulholland is a maggot, whether or not the SP wish establish a Leninist dictatorship in the wee north, and to ask, instead, if non-resident Northern IRish people get to vote in Northern Ireland elections, why can't non resident Irish People not vote in Irish elections?
and do either the SP or curious or curious about curious, or any of the maggots, or any of the soon to be valued political contributors of UCD or UL or TCD library have any substantial answer to that question?
I'd also like to ask the new NI assembly to havea serious look at the tourism adverts put in European magazines, coz they're like really lame.
I saw one last week- 3 photos and 3 captions.
the captions: beautiful countryside, great shopping, place of culture.
and the photos: Belfast Botanic gardens, QUB, and Stormont.
Now I may be a myopic southerner but hey Stormont photographed just a few metres behind the statue of Carson is not a place of culture.... it's a place of government.
isn't it?
It was deleted because of "******" which is personalised abuse. "Little Lenin" I think would be an acceptable political criticism. Whether its appropriate to apply it to Kevin is another matter. He never posts here , so who knows where he stands.
Dont the SP answer questions?
Use such vulger insults?
Why should leading members of the SP be at your beck and call? Come to a public meeting or some such event and make your accusations openly. The bin tax conference would be a good oportunity. See how well they deal with it and see how well it goes down with the ordinary punters.
On another thread the SP are trying to rewrite history, they are fooling no one there, and they are fooling no one on this thread.
If the SP really stood for democracy then their leaders would come here and put it on the record. The reality is that the SP stand for a Leninist dictatorship.
Demonstrate you are not a serious person. If members of the SP wrongly personally abuse people is that an adequate excuse for you to do it.
You go on about loads of people having contempt for the SP leadership which you reduce wrongly to three people. However it is you peddling all the hate. Other debates are carried out in a more rational fashion.
So if you apoligise for your intemperate remarks and ask nicely for an answer to your question I think you might find people taking you more seriously rather than a troll.
I'm not going to be sidetracked. If the SP stand for democracy lets have some of the SP leaders here disowning the Kellys and Kenna.
My description of the Troika is mild compared to some of the names used about them in non-SP circles. A lot of people out there like individual SP members but have contempt for your leadership.
Completly undermining yourself by personly slagging people ie the behavour of a troll
From Curious. Does he miss the irony of his/her statement which makes the point that anonymous postings don't carry as much weight as identifiable ones?
Comments from anonymous SP members regarding how they would treat FF and the Bosses parties after the SP have acheived power dont carry much weight. For months, comments by Shane Kenna, Oisin and Finghin Kelly and others have been on the SY site, stating how they would smash FF and other capitalist parties. The SP have had months to post disagreements with this but havent.
At any public meeting or in ant political discussion SP members will describe in a bloodthirsty manner how not just Capitalists but how all of their enemies will be dealt with once they have got State Power.
If the SP are to have any credibility regarding their conversion to Democracy then Stephen Boyd, Michael O'Brien or Kevin McLaoughlin should come here and put it on the record.
yes the rsidents have. but in the abscence of talks the residents say the march should not go ahead. do you not think the SP should support this? the residents also get subjected to sustained sectarian abuse. do you not think there should be an "and" in the SP statememnt?
"And in the abscence of talks we support the position of the residents that the march should not go ahead. We also believe that those who have held up 5 fingers as they passed Grahams Bookies should be banned from future parades."
This is the sort of statement I would expect from Revolutionary Socialists regarding the Lower Ormeau Road.
Now, if SF wanted to march down the Shankill Road past the site of Frizzels Shop would the SP be calling for talks with local residents?
The SP would not be in favour of outlawing FG or FF or the PDs. The are not fascists they are capitalist parties. I am sure that after the revolution there will be parties that represent the old capitalist class. They would be allowed to organise and stand in elections etc as long as they accept the will of the majority in society and do not attempt to restore capitalism through arms.
BTW I do not think that parties advocating capitalism would get much support in a socialist society, if someone set up a party now calling for the restoration of feudalism they'd be laughed at, well I think it would be the same for a a party calling for the restoration of capitlaism in a socialist society.
As for democracy. The system by which every 5 years we elect a parliament is not democratic. These TDs are out of touch with ordinary people and have a complete free reign once elected. Under socialism we must have a system by which all representatives are subject to immediate recall and paid the same as those they represent.
I will repeat the question.
Have the residents called for talks?
"would the SP be calling for talks with residents?"
No, Pat. They would be calling on the 'workers in uniform' to crack a few (Fenian) heads.
The residents do not want Orange bigots marching past Grahams , playing the Sash and holding up 5 fingers to mock the 5 Catholics murdered by the UFF. Its a pity the SP cant for once "take sides" and support the residents against rabid sectarian bigots.
I repeat my question: if SF wanted to march down the Shankill Rd past the site of Frizzels , would the SP be calling for talks with residents?
These comments while informative give a quick idea of the difficulty involved in the development of left alliances.
The many parties that consider themselves, or are considered by others to be on the left, WP,CPI,SF,GP,SP,IRSP,PUP,Labour,INS,WSM and BICO, hold differing views on the national question and the role of the working class in Irish socity. From these differences a whole number of other questions arise.
The reality is that any long term alliance must be based on discussions that at the very least lead to a real understanding of each others position rather than assumptions.
That will not be an easy road for the Irish left to travel.
This road began with the GFA - it did not create a breathing space - how could it? It solidified the structures of sectarianism and deepened division. That was clear at the time, as some argued and within 2 years the assembly was disassembled. You could simply say, we got it wrong, but it looks like your analysis is flipping from one extreme to the next. Every civil war that I can think of, has 2 sides backed by different ruling classes or different sections of the same ruling class. The question you need to ask yourself is which ruling class or section would arm one side or another, now or in the near future.
Sectarianism can get nasty even pogromish, but civil war! Catch a grip, stop flipping
SP said GFA was NOT a soloution to the national question but that it may provide a breathing space for a working class alternative to develop.
It is the view of the SP that the road currently been traveled in the north is the road to civil war, the question is will the working class have sufficient time to pose an alternative?
The SP defended the GFA 100%. In fact they campaigned for a Yes vote on the referendum arguing it was 'the only show in town'. Nobody expects any left group to be right all the time - we live in the real world, however the above article articulates a 180 degree turn. In the past the SP would cry foul if any other left organisation would refine its' analysis with respect to changes in the political situation. A little humble pie could be eaten here, welcome to the reality of the northern 'state'
"The SP say there should be talks between residents and the OO on disputed parades"
I thought that this was what the residents called for as well?
Now Sammy is trolling. I think the SP have made it clear that they are not calling for transfers to the PUP. But SF are! Gerry Adams has called on SF supporters to extend their preferences to Pro GFA Unionist candidates.
I believe the SP were correct to engage with the PUP, it did look as if there was a possibility of a break to the left from loyalism. HS says they would do the same again and he is right to say so.
When David Ervine addressed the Dublin Council of Trade Unions he got me to understand where left loyalists were coming from. I didnt agree with him but I did have a new insight.
Where the SP are wrong is in their failure to confront the realities of sectarianism even in the 2 constituencies in which they are standing. The Short Strand has undergone a long siege, this is not even mentioned by the SP.
The SP say there should be talks between residents and the OO on disputed parades. Again this ignores the reality of the Lower Ormeau. The OO march down the Road past Sean Graham bookies where 5 Catholics were murdered by the UFF. As the OO pass Grahams they strike up the Sash and some of them hold up 5 fingers. The SP are aware of this.
In this particular case surely they could stand by the residents and condemn the OO. If SF wanted to march down the Shankill Road past the site of Frizzels with a Republican Flute Band, would the SP say there should be talks with local residents?
Somehow I think not.
The points made on the SY site are on the SY DISCUSSION board.
That is an area where people can debate ideas and put across their own point of view. A very healthy thing in my view. Well worth a visit to the site and I understand everyone is welcome to join in.
On the SY Site there are dozens of statements like those of Shane, by SY and SP members including such luminaries as Oisin and Finghin Kelly. These have nbeen up for months and at no stage have either the SP or SY disowned them. They speak with pride of how they will use "their state" to smash the "remnants of the bosses".
Its obvious that the SP do not believe in democracy.
Will the SP, if in power, allow candidates from parties like FF and FG to stand for election??
Now it's a simple answer we need, Yes or No??
Now would that be the same sammy who wrongly informed readers that the SP had called for a vote transfer to the PUP when canvasing the Ravenhill Rd?
Of course sammy forgot to mention that we hadnt even canvased Ravenhill at that point never mind calling for a vote transfer.
Must have been a wee mistake sammy?
on what the electoral system in a socialist society would be like can be summed up as follows:
"A socialist government would have a multi-party system and the right to freedom of speech, association, press, and religion. Discrimination on the basis of race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, religion, creed, and disability would be prohibited."
You were being ignored, "Josef", because you were trolling and generally being a pain in the hole, not because you had uncovered some startling evil plan.
but it is not the view of the Socialist Party or the view of Socialist Youth. Satisfied?
I'm not going to defend the SP vision of a workers' state (whatever it may be) - but as for banning the parties of capital (ie counter revolutionaries) - well that's why its called 'WORKERS' democracy'.
However, I fail to see how the SP, or any revolutionary could simply be 'voted' into power in the simplistic manner suggested above. It would take a revolution to see a revolutionary party/movement take over - this will not happen through parliament. This will happen, if it is to ever happen, on the streets and in the unions.
then agian, it might appear to some that this is the work of someone simply trying to undermine the SP election campaign - by pointing the opinions of one SY member on a discussion board (its not the SY site).
Maybe the SP hope to go into coalition with the PUP. That way they would have the UVF to deal with people who disagree with them.
Thats what you get from the SP. They wont give up power if they ever get elected. They avoid awkward questions by starting new threads. The SP dont believe in Democracy, go try the Socialist Youth Site. You will get the following and more. They believe in smashing all their enemies once they have achieved power.
http://socialistyouth.myikonboard.com/viewthread.php?threadid=41
Shane.Kenna Posted: August 15 2003, 9:17 #514
You make the point: "RE:Democracy
I'll ask the question again, how far will the main party go to 'protect the revolutionary gains' ? would opposition parties, factions within the main party be banned?, would there be elections? etc."
As I explained, before factions were temporally banned within the Bolshevik party at the time of the Civil war. Criticism was not. Lenin and Trotsky lost many debates over policy within the party.
My spin on this goes as follows. If Ireland were to oversee a socialist revolution tomorrow, and a revolutionary workers party were leading it. I would defend the right of the party to ban counter revolutionary parties - but only counter revolutionary parties. This is the same thing that happened in Russia during the Civil war. The bosses parties such as Fianna Fail etc, would never accept socialism and would use all means to destroy it and revert back to Capitalism. This scenario cannot be allowed"
THERE YOU HAVE IT! Bosses parties to be banned after the SP take power! Thats the SP idea of democracy.People would not be allowed to change their mind, they would only be allowed to vote for the SP.
Would you please clarify the SP position on Democracy. On the Socialist Youth Site it is stated that the SP would smash Fiana Fail and the other "Bosses" parties if it achieved power.
I suspect that starting off this new thread is an attempt by the SP to avoid answering the questions that were posed about the SY Site on a previous thread.
Why the sudden silence? Embarassed at the honesty of your younger members?
For the sake of clarity will the SP let us know if they stand over the statements of their youth section. If they acheive power will they ban FF and all the other "bosses" parties.
The original post points out that sectarianism can only be defeated when it is "identified and opposed in all its forms" .True enough. But then it says that a successful challenge to sectarianism can only work if it is independent of "the sectrian parties" without identifying who these sectarian parties are.For the sake of clarity ,does the Socialist Party consider Sinn Fein to be a sectarian party?
It would seem that the SP are developing a youth wing that would scare you if they were to get anywhere near power.
Some of them make Rory Hearne look a mere amateur in the wannabe Bolshevik department.
Kevin's puppys the new Pavlov dogs!!!!
If the SP have recruited anybody through the bin campaign I would love to be around when 'normal' people come into contact with the 'revolutionary' puritans. Should be fun.
The SP dont believe in Democracy, go try the Socialist Youth Site. You will get the following and more. They believe in smashing all their enemies once they have achieved power.
http://socialistyouth.myikonboard.com/viewthread.php?threadid=41
Shane.Kenna Posted: August 15 2003, 9:17 #514
The closest blueprint to a socialist society that im aware of is Lenin's state and revolution. As you probally know he makes clear the standards for the emerging socialist state. All representatives much take the average wage of the worker will be subject to recall etc. Marx makes the point that each will recieve according to needs and abilities. In this sense everyone will get back what they deserve.
You make the point: "RE:Democracy
I'll ask the question again, how far will the main party go to 'protect the revolutionary gains' ? would opposition parties, factions within the main party be banned?, would there be elections? etc."
As I explained, before factions were temporally banned within the Bolshevik party at the time of the Civil war. Criticism was not. Lenin and Trotsky lost many debates over policy within the party.
My spin on this goes as follows. If Ireland were to oversee a socialist revolution tomorrow, and a revolutionary workers party were leading it. I would defend the right of the party to ban counter revolutionary parties - but only counter revolutionary parties. This is the same thing that happened in Russia during the Civil war. The bosses parties such as Fianna Fail etc, would never accept socialism and would use all means to destroy it and revert back to Capitalism. This scenario cannot be allowed"
THERE YOU HAVE IT! Bosses parties to be banned after the SP take power! Thats the SP idea of democracy.People would not be allowed to change their mind, they would only be allowed to vote for the SP.
...........................................
http://socialistyouth.myikonboard.com/viewthread.php?threadid=95
Shane.Kenna
Posted: September 4 2003, 6:56 #618
"Banning Strikes - well this has been done in every single country during war time. In the Case of the Russian Civil war it was done with the support of the Russian workers. "
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http://socialistyouth.myikonboard.com/viewthread.php?threadid=41
Shane.Kenna Posted: August 12 2003, 16:06 #499
"To arrest the flow of workers from town to country, draconian measures were introduced against "labour desertions". In 1920, a worker at the Kolomesky works told the visiting British Labour delegation that "desertions from the works were frequent and that deserters were arrested by soldiers and brought back from the villages." An official decree, passed after the Ninth Party Congress (March 1920) prescribed severe punishment for "labour desertion" up to and including hard labour. Labour was put on a military footing. "War Communism" meant the "militarisation of labour", for a temporary period.
Those who link together Lenin and Trotsky and Marxism with the regime of Stalin and his heirs, by using the arguments of Kautsky and the Mensheviks about the "regime of coercion", ignore the differences of time, place, methods and conditions in relation to the period of 1918 – 22 and from 1927 onward in the USSR.
Even in the most democratic of bourgeois states, such as Britain, under wartime conditions measures were taken prohibiting the free movement of labour, changing of jobs, etc. as "exceptional" measures. In Ireland during the Civil War the Cumann na nGeadhael (now Fine Gael party) took harsh action against irregulars (now Fianna Fail) up to including death sentences. The Bolsheviks were faced with Civil War, following hard upon four years of a disastrous imperialist war. "
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I am a working class protestant living in the short strand area of Belfast, and if ever i have any trouble, i go to SF and they sort out the problem for me, regardless of the fact that i am a protestant.
Similarly protestant peaceline families who have suffered from the plague of children stonnning their properties, have gone to the SF advice centre in the New lodge, who have promptly stopped children stonning protestant peaceline houses, and put in place adult patrols to prevent children entering disused building sites bordering peacelines to collect bricks etc to use to throw at these peaceline houses.
No wrong.
Socialists are very much for elections.
In fact socialists would argue that the election of a government once every 5 years is not real democracy. People should be able to replace the government at will and should have direct hands on day to day control of its actions.
THE SP WILL ALLOW AN ELECTORATE TO VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE
Were they like the SP??
I thought all Marxists were against elections.
Nonsense, the Sandinistas handed over power peacefully after losing an election, so why do you think the Socialist Party would not do so?
Yes the Socialist Party would allow themselves to be voted out of office. I don't think that any organisation on the Irish left advocates a one party state, including even the Communist Party.
WILL THE SP ALLOW AN ELECTORATE TO VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE????
I think people should know.
Is the NI Assembly sectarian?
Are the UUP and DUP sectarian?
Are the SDLP and SF sectarian?
or working class, don't vote for stuck up/snobby/snooty political parties such as the SDLP, UUP, DUP who pander to the rich/middle classes. These parties are mostly made up of the stuck up professional classes, who have no idea about life in working class communities and no intention of working for the benefit of the protestant/catholic poor and working class.
Look at the SDLP's Peter O Reilly's appalling treatment of Belfast city center street traders, and who could forgot the graffiti on Sunnyside St, concerning a certain member of the SDLP who put a 10yr old child through a bus shelter window, after the said child attempted to remove his election poster. Not to mention the blatantly empty sectarian backward bigotry of the DUP and the UUP representatives of the ulster old boy snob network.
If you're working class/poor use your vote, to snub the rich, snobby, powerful classes who populate the mainstream nationalist and ulster unionist parties, vote for Sinn fein, the SP, WP or the PUP. At least these parties consist of working class people who understand the needs/plight of catholic/protestant working class communities.
Lets get a few things clear. There is sectarian attacks from BOTH sides in the North. This is FACT. A majority comes from loyalists but it would be utterly wrong to say that no sectarian volience comes from republicans.
The above article does tell the truth. Unionists and loyalists do blame the republican movement for what they claim is a campaign of ethnic cleansing. The article never claims at any point that they are correct to do so.
The analysis of sectarian attacks put forward above seems to me to be broadly correct - there has been a loyalist onslaught against Catholics in many areas, most of the violence has gone in that direction, but there are also plenty of attacks by Catholics against Protestants.
I'm left wondering exactly what kind of zealot could possibly disagree with any of that?
According to the original posting, loyalists and unionists argue that republicans are engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing against protestants.The first thing a person who is oposed to sectarian strife should do is tell the truth about this.If the SP believes republicans are committed to ethnic cleansing they should come out and say it .It is a very serious accusation to make.If it isn't true ,by allow the accusation to go unchallenged , the SP is unwittingly providing a rationale for the type of murderous sectarianism witneesed in north Belfast again llast night.
It is sad but predictable that the SP refuse to deal with criticism of their essentially Cult like structure. This is Leader centred and is based on Guru style characters such as Hadden and Taafe. It specialises in recruiting young people, exploiting their enthusiasm and finances and then discarding burned out husks.
the article doesn't say loyalist sectarianism equals republican sectarianism. It says loyalist sectatrianism is not the full story and points out there is also attacks on prodestant homes. Alienation is effecting the prodestant communites for many reasons so this is causing a massive reaction, holy cross being the most incredible example of pure bigotry. We are not trying to gloss over attacks on catholics but just remind people that prodestants are being attacked too. But the socialist party does equally oppose sectarian attacks from whichever side. Which we all should do.
Tailing catholic nationalism is not the answer. Also running a candidate for every seat won't come by uniting the small forces of the swp and the sp it will take much wider participation from people from both communities. On the PUP if you read the material, we said they was a chance they could grow into something progressive but in the end they didn't. But we encouraged it while we thought it was possible. And we'd do it again.
In the end the nationalist question is that of two minorities, catholics are a minority in NI and prodestants in Ireland. if the fears of prodestants are ignored there will be no unity. its as simple as that.
If we simply tail end sinn fein and become a left republican group we will be just another catholic party. As difficult as it is we have to try and build an alternative for everybody.
Perhaps the SP puppies might ask Commissar Kevin or Steven 'I want to have Peter Hadden's baby' Boyd about Jim 'ill fix it' Barbour's politics. Ask them if he's a revolutionary, if he supports Gilchrists Old Labour FBU leadership and when exactly he joined the Party. Problem is kiddies they won't answer these questions on indymedia, cos they're afraid their opportunism will be exposed and good ole Jim's as well.
All power to the union bureaucrats...oops I mean the rank and file!
Ignore the previous comment.
There are no factions in the CWI, neither internal or external.
We are one big happy international family.
The SP provides no answer for the people of Ireland either North or South. They are a Political Cult, little different from the Moonies. Until the Troika is overthrown and the Party won back to a programme of Socialist Democracy then they will continue to mislead the Working Class.
For your information, we strongly advise you to consult The Ross Institute: http://www.rickross.com/
"Welcome to the Ross Institute
A database of information about cults, destructive cults, controversial groups and movements. The Ross Institute (TRI) is a nonprofit public resource with a vast archive that contains thousands of individual documents. TRI on-line files include news stories, research papers, reports, court documents, book excerpts, personal testimonies and hundreds of links to additional relevant resources. This database is well-organized for easy access and reference. "
To start with you could access the following:
http://www.rickross.com/groups/cwi.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general434.html
http://www.rickross.com/sg_alpha.html
http://www.rickross.com/sg_political.html
While I like the SP despise sectarian politicians I, also, have to admit that they have support. I would estimate that 70% to 80% of sectarian incidents come from the loyalist side.An illustration of this is that Leftwing groups such as the SP/Militant have rarely had trouble selling their papers on the nationalist side compared to the Loyalist side ( and I have been told this by SP members) Nationalist sectarianism is reactive by and large. So I disagree with the equal to sign that the SP put on it. While there are differences it would be similar to equating the two "sides" in the American deep south.The reality is that while the Trimble Unionists got what they were looking for in the GFA it was not enough to satisfy the die hards. In fact suicide by the combined Sinn Fein ard comhairle and the Prove army council would not satisfy the DUP and its allies. And again why please Trimble who is just Faulkner in slow motion.
The SP had some illusions in the PUP and Eri vine and Hutchinson.After the various turf wars in Loyalism I hope they have the sense to reassess. I have no problem in reaching out to any forces that appear to be breaking from sectarianism but a certain wariness and caution is called for rather than naievity. As for the Womens coalition and the Alliance.
What I am saying is that there is a depth of sectarianism based on Unionism that has a resistance to change. It will not be swept away by pretending that it does not exist or that it is superfical ( easily forgotten in a campaign to reverse Health cuts or whatever).
Sinn Fein swallowed a deal where amongst other things Bairbre De Brun administers Health cuts in return for the Illusion of power. In fact Sinn Fein like the Labour Party down here are campaigning for jobs as administrators not real power.
The way forward in still a 32 county socialist republic and it is still in the context of a nation wide struggle that sectarianism can be tackled. Maintaining the statlet in the north is similar to giving the Boers a homeland in South Africa.
It is a pity that a deal could not be worked out with McCanns SWP led alliance offering an alternative in every constituency.How can the left uproot religious bigotry when they fail totally to copmbat their own political and childish sectish behaviour.
We need open and honest debates on all questions including the above if we are to get a program which is grounded on reality and can offer a way forward.
Let's just say that the SP got into power in the ROI, won all the seats in the Dáil.
Then let's say that five years down the line, the people wanted a change of government, would the SP hold elections and allow non SP candidates to stand?
Could whoever is posting Socialist Party articles in full on indymedia please stop. It is embarrasing and people may realise our plans.
Could whoever has been putting up articles from the Socialist Party on the Northern elections please stop posting them in full?
If an article is already available on the web, indymedia users are asked not to reproduce it in full, but instead to provide a brief summary and a link.
I agree that sectarianism is built into the post GFA structures . But that's not identifying the source of sectarianism in northern Ireland. Sectarianism was built into the whole of the state when it was founded - a protestant state for a protestant people. Unionists accuse republcans of ethnic cleansing -you report that uncritically ,but do you believe it yourself Ciaron? By putting an equals sign between republicans and loyalists you run the danger of reinforcing the paranoia that fuels loyalism.
In all the postings I've read from the SP I've never seen any mention of the fact that the loyalist gangs were run by British military intelligence.
Latest news and press statements from the SP Campaign
Election news from the SP in Belfast
http://www.geocities.com/socialistparty/ElectionNews.htm
Press Statements
20 November 2003 - Tommy Black gives support to the Shorts workers in dispute with management.
http://www.geocities.com/socialistparty/Election/031120Shorts.htm
19 November 2003- Tommy Black, Socialist Party candidate for East Belfast, today called for the land in the Harbour Estate to be “given back to the people of Belfast”.
http://www.geocities.com/socialistparty/Election/031119TB.htm
18 November 2003 - Jim Barbour, Socialist Party candidate for South Belfast, today called for all candidates to declare their financial interests in private companies after criticising Esmond Bernie of hypocrisy on the question of affordable electricity prices.
http://www.geocities.com/socialistparty/Election/031118Elect.htm