Dublin Support McCann Campaign - Get involved

by beware Mon Nov 03, 2003 21:23

SEA=SWP they are the ONLY organisation involved.

This is a SWP front, genuine people should have a serious look at the role the SWP played in the bin tax and their unbelievable sectarianism in the SIPTU elections before they join McCann.

There are other left groups standing in these elections. If people are interested in helping out in the northern elections they should look at the other parties. I know that the SP have 2 candidates.

by Aoife - personal Mon Nov 03, 2003 21:45 aoifenf at yahoo dot co dot uk 087 7955013

here we go again!!


swp killed my hamster ...

swp sold my granny into slavery ...

swp has tramautised me so much i can't remember my real name to put it on this posting!!!!


Yes friend, there are lefties running in other areas, including as I have already said, Marian Baur in East Londonderry. If you want to help out with Eamonn McCann's campaign contact me on 087 7955013. If you want to help another left candidate then contact their campaign HQ.

On the otherhand if you just want to sit at your computer and moan about people who're trying to change the world, then maybe you could do something useful and txt me the results of the next rugby game as some of us will be too busy at the weekend to watch it.

Cheers

Aoife

by Mike Piatza Mon Nov 03, 2003 21:50

Would vote mccann, despite his party, most of us have never had the luxury of voting for someone we totally agree with. Don't care about the swp, they will remain irrelevant, and will be off chasing the next bunch of students once the election is over, but mccann has always been an independent, principled character. Would rather they get a couple of hundred votes than see the whole sectarian charade go unchallenged. by the way, if matt is reading, my comments on your claim that the Irish American working class funds sf are on the other mccann thread. sf in the north is simply the old nationalist party minus some of the catholicism and plus guns.

by 949385485656 Mon Nov 03, 2003 21:54

Jim Barbour - South Belfast
Tommy Black - East Belfast

by Dexters Mon Nov 03, 2003 23:02

...so I suppose McCann and his crews will be spending as much time, money and effort, including sending teams of canvassers into the waterside, as the bogside or creggan. I think not.

Make no mistake this is only an effort by the SWP to thwart the aim of SF in Derry to win three seats in the Foyle consitiuency. Thereby denying a real working class revolutionary, Raymond McCartney (ex soldier and former hunger striker), a victory in his own hometown that he defended against imperialism.

I would have time for this campiagn or his candidture if it was sincere, but given that the implict aim is only to take votes off SF and given all the effort will go into SF strongholds it is yet another, in an extremely long line, attempt to slow the advance of SF on the Island.

Oh and by the way, it is still not clear who the SEA is made up off except the SWP. Perhaps you could enlighten us.

by dermot - dawc Mon Nov 03, 2003 23:07

People who were on Derry Anti War Coalition's mailing list (supposed to be for contact for DAWC meetings/events) are being sent emails from Goretti Horgan (McCann's partner, and DAWC secretary) to support McCann's campaign.

by iosaf Mon Nov 03, 2003 23:43

we stood there dawking about
at the edge of the waves
oh go on my love
swim out as far as far
as afar as you want to,

>sure he doesn't live in
Derry,

by dermot - DAWC Tue Nov 04, 2003 00:59

Dear all,
We were all horrified by the way our elected representatives lined up to shake George Bush's bloodied hands at Hillsborough. Well, now we have a chance to make an elected representative of an anti-war activist. As you probably know, Eamonn McCann is standing in the Assembly elections. This email is to ask all of you fellow anti-war activists to get involved in the campaign to get
him elected. Opposition to the war and the warped priorities of the system that produces war is at the heart of his campaign, so I don't think this email is an abuse of this list.

Every evening, from 5pm onwards, there will be groups of canvassers leaving campaign HQs which is in Waterloo Street, next door to the Gweedore
bar.
Canvassing will continue til about 8pm, so if you can spare an hour anytime between 5 and 8 any night, get along to Waterloo St. Alternatively, you can call in there, pick up leaflets and just canvass your own street or few streets - any
help appreciated.

There is a meeting this coming Thursday night in the Nerve Centre at 7.30 to launch Eamonn's election campaign. It's important for morale to get lots of people along to that - so tell your friends.Tonight there is a Bob Dylan fundraising night in Sandinos from 9.30.

Finally, if your life is just too busy and complicated to be able to work to get Eamonn elected, maybe you could make a contribution to the campaign. The SEA has no big backers, no corporate donors - we rely on the average
five-eights coughing up a tenner here, £50 there. So far, the response has been amazing but already we are scaling down our printing plans because we cannot afford to, for example, get the kind of posters the established parties use.
So, if you can afford a few bob, here are the details of the bank account or you can always drop into the office with a donation. Bank account: Socialist Environmental Alliance, Sort code 93-84-83, Account number 27456-059, First Trust Bank, Meadow Bank, Derry.

The email address for the SEA is seaderry@hotmail.com and the office phone number is 71371592.

Goretti

by mattt Tue Nov 04, 2003 09:47

They certainly won't be canvassing in the Waterside no more than the SP candidates in Belfast will be condemning the sectarian scum who dominate working class Protestant estates. McCann is not fit to tie the shoe laces of Ray McCartney or any of the the thousands of Derry men and women who stayed at home and fought the Brits while McCann was Dublin's pet trot who made a damn good living talking and writing crap for the bosses and the state's media over the years. As for the idiot who thinks Sinn Féin are the old nationalist party "with guns" .... oh isn't that clever! The old nationalist party with guns behind them (Brit ones) is the SDLP, the party McCann is trying to help hold onto their old stronghold in Derry, along with the PDs, Free State Labour, Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, the British LP and anyone else they can drag out. But that has always been the role of the trots. Only contribution they ever made to the revolution was making uniforms for the Red Army in the camps.

by Laughing Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:40

What did Gerry Adams, Mitchel McGloughlin and Bairbre de Brun do in the war daddy?
Em....nothing!
What do they do now?
Kiss the asses of rich americans and implement Thatchers policies.
Is that the sound of Bobby rotating wildly, underground?

by mattt Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:52

What would you know what anyone did in the war?, apart from trotskyite wasters like yourself who watched it from the sidelines.

by Laughing Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:20

What was the point of fighting in a war, that 30 years on - gave you exactly what the officials stood for? (minus their socialist politics).
What does this Stormont have that Sunningdale didn't have (apart from neo-liberalism).
Mattt the party you stand for fits well with their namesakes across the atlantic. What's more Adams and co have delivered more than the officials ever did - ceasefire with decomissioning where the sworn enemy knows whats been decommissioned. You've been sold a pup. Now wake up and smell the coffee.

by mattt Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:37

Perhaps if you didnt subsribe to some Disneyland version of reality (namely trotskyism) you might actually be able to understand some of what is going on. Republicans have been engaged in this struggle for a long time and no doubt will be for some time to come, and we certainly don't believe that we have arrived at the end of the road. The point is, however, that we were actually involved in THE struggle, and not lecturing people from some absurd vantage point outside of it. If you want to think about pointlessness, maybe you might learn something about the sad history of trotskyism which is one of irrelevancy and corruption and betrayal and incompetence. You have no idea of what you want or how to get it beyond childish fantasies about socialism which has about as much to do with reality as the creations of the Disney studios.

by Davy Carlin Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:55

Matt aside from at times your obvious contempt for trots, a question? In your view are SF, right wing, centre right, centre, centre left, far left? Us middle class trots in Belfast would be interested in knowing this as we sup on our afternoon tea in leafy suburbia. Please educate us about the history of the struggle fought in the heart of working class ghettos of the North so us middle class trots can learn of what it was really really like in the thick of it.

by PK Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:14

It must be hard to shoulder that persecution complex that has you so weighed down.

Good luck with the canvassing for Eamonn, its not as if the bin tax campaign could do with your support in following through one of your stated key tasks 'let's build a mass movement'. But sure it's the party before the working class or whatever front your running it through this week.

"On the otherhand if you just want to sit at your computer and moan about people who're trying to change the world, then maybe you could do something useful and txt me the results of the next rugby game as some of us will be too busy at the weekend to watch it."

Oh so that's what your lot have been doing while the rest of us were building REAL local anti-bin charge campaigns (Brid being the honourable exception). Some of us have been busy for months. Somehow I think Joe got it wrong when he called the anarkids 'virtual warriors'.

by mattt Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:27

was mostly fought in the working class "ghettoes" (don't use that on your election material for chrissake!!), but not by you and the SWP. Think it might have been led by that US financed sectarian right wing group known as the Republican Movement (Irish Branch of George Bush's party)

by Goretti Horgan - SWP and SEA Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:34 Derry

1. The SEA canvassed the Waterside (and the Fountain)during the local elections, we will be doing the same this time.
2. Marion Baur, who is standing for the SEA in the East Londonderry (sic) constituency is a member of the Communist Party.
3. NGOs are not allowed to back any political party if they want to maintain their charitable status.
4. Several unions have already been in touch with the SEA to organise workplace meetings in support...all this has to be unofficial as the union hierarchies would not approve.
5. The level of inequalities between rich and poor in the North have increased rapidly over the last 10 years. Almost half of all households are now officially on or below the poverty line. That is why it was so vital to stand some kind of real socialist alternative to the sectarian smokescreen that the establishment parties - SDLP, SF, UUP and DUP - throw up to try to distract attention from this reality.
6. The SEA website is, I hear, almost ready to get up and running, so people can decide what they think for themselves about policies, positions etc. We only heard about this debate on Indymedia last night. People will forgive the fact that we are too busy to be posting here but just keep an eye for the SEA website. I'll ask someone to post the address when it is up.

by Davy Tue Nov 04, 2003 13:18

Matt the Ghetto's is but 'an expression' used in the context of my reply, Enjoyed your sarcasim though, but so it is not seen as a veil to answering my question, I therefore repeat, are SF right wing, centre right, centre, centre left or far left - not a difficult question I believe especially as you seem to be a heartfelt supporter and would know their politics.

by SF watcher Tue Nov 04, 2003 13:32

Given their performance in the Health and Education portfolios on private finance they are clearly a party of the right. Obviously Matts war was fought for north south bodies on inland waterways...tiocfaidh ar barge.

by matt Tue Nov 04, 2003 14:43

I would describe Sinn Féin as a radical left wing republican party in the tradition of the United Irishmen, Fenians, Connolly, IRA of Tan and Civil Wars and to the present date. Never have claimed to be anything else I believe and never felt the need to contextualise Irish radicalism with reference to factions in the Russian Revolution or those which emerged internationally from that. As for the comment re fighting the war for all Ireland inland waterways bodies, of course no-one did and I am sure that no republican activist would be happy if that was how it was all to end. But you see, that is the point - it isn't over. The fighting war maybe, but not the fight for a 32 county republic and I make no apologies for seeing that as a necesscary precursor to any further developments in the Irish revolution. I have no doubt but that republicans will bring that about and that they will be to the forefront of whatever happens next.

by Davy Tue Nov 04, 2003 15:04

Matt thank you for that genuine reply. As you would have genuine disagreements with 'Trots' etc I would hold genuine Disagreements with the various aspects of Republicanism, which I documented here and have done on various other media outlets. Matt as I have always said and have attempted practically to do, was to see my main problem at not being with Repubicanism or others on the left but with both the state and the system. We both have our understandings and our differences on how to attempt to bring about a better society for all which is why we are in differing or support differing organisations. Although we both differ in our understanding in how to effect real change, the fact that we both want to see it, puts me closer to you and many others on this site than we would be to many others. I believe that the problem lays not in the main with eachother but with the state and the system that attemps to hold us down. It is through discussioning, engaging and where possible collectively working together on a common cause for a common aim that we can at least begin to work towards a better society that I believe many on this site want. Davy. C

by Janus Tue Nov 04, 2003 15:23

It continues to amaze me to the point of stupeficiation that Davy Carlin is a member of the SWP. I mean seriously, he writes well, he's clearly non-sectarian, he's open-minded, respects the opinions of others and the contributions they make to debate. Does this sound like any other SWP person that anyone else knows?

In almost 20 years of either active involvement in left wing politics in Dublin, or observation of it, I have never come across a member of the SWP like him.

On the topic being discussed, as a former SF member I would very much agree with Matt's rather too strongly worded responses that SF is a radical left wing party, but I would ask him if he thinks the last five years have seen a dilution of this somewhat.

The arguments about PFI are, frankly, not particularly relevant. I have never seen an answer to the inevitable SF response 'We know it's a flawed system of Government, but we do not have tax raising powers forcing us to use PFI because of obligations imposed on us by the British Government' that has been anything but naive, foolish and not based in what I like to call the real world.

That said, I do think the party in the South is drifting ever so slightly rightwards and getting too obsessed with electoralism. Fudging issues to try and make everyone happy seems to be the order of the day. As well as that, the party never made the effort in the Trade Union movement that I believe is essential.

Still though, the Republican Movement are, for now, the only significant genuinely radical working class left wing movement in Ireland. This is not a perfect state of affairs by any means, and I would like to see an emergence of a kind of front I suppose, that brings together the common sense, personal commitment and policies on the national question of republicans with the boundless energy, Trade Union and economic policies of the SP.

That would be a force the likes of which we have never seen. But frankly, until the SP change their bizarre Northern policy, develop a less sectarian way of doing things and frankly stop boring me senseless, we'll be waiting.

Still though Davy Carlin, are you sure you're in the right party or is it that the SWP in Belfast are the complete opposite of the SWP in Dublin? Aoife Ni Fraggle's persecution complex a case in point.

by matt Tue Nov 04, 2003 16:19

Indeed we (okay I!) can get a bit too obsessed with our differences and resort to admittedly childish abuse about trots and so on. So don't mind me!!!

by anti-sectarian socialist Tue Nov 04, 2003 17:29

Glad to see McCann is making a run of it in Derry, and I hope he does well. If SF find themselves in a pinch over it, they have no one to blame but themselves. To those who think that the left is somehow obliged to support SF, wise up: they have pursued right-wing and anti-working class policies while in government; they have bent over backwards not to offend the most right-wing government in American history; and they have let down their former constituency in pursuit of the green/SDLP middle class vote. They have nothing in common with the tradition of Connolly.

Ditto with the professional anti-trots: get a life--preferably out of politics. I have nothing but respect for the SWP in the north. Without them there would not have been an antiwar movement, and it makes perfect sense to me that Davy Carlin should be a member. Janus says s/he's never met a non-sectarian member of the SWP in the north--that suggests to me that s/he's never done a thing politically there.

I do have serious qualms about the SWP's election strategy, however. I agree with whoever it was that pointed out the madness of Dublin SWP organizing Dublin teams to canvas for the SEA in Derry. If the campaign doesn't have enough support locally to stand on its own legs, then McCann shouldn't have stood, and it seems to me correct that the SWP should be concentrating on the bin tax campaign rather than doing missionary work in the north. If the SEA represents something real--a movement which could use an electoral expression--then fine, go for it. But don't try to pretend there's a movement there when there isn't. You only burn out and demoralize good members.

by Mr Disco - ucd SA ( Salivating Antitrots ) Tue Nov 04, 2003 18:06

Equality / Liberty / Fraternity

For "Les Trots" , and "We Ourselves"

My cock is bigger than yours
My car is bigger than yours
My brain is bigger than yours
My ideas are bigger than yours

/* Too Too SHY SHY Hush Hush EYE2EYE */

by Janus Tue Nov 04, 2003 18:11

The first mistake in your error ridden prose was to state that I had claimed never to have met a non-sectarian member of the SWP in the North. In fact, as literate people are aware, I made no such claim, stating that in years of activism in Dublin, which is only in the North from the perspective of people from Cork, I had met no non-sectarian members of the SWP, and I stand by this claim.

Your second mistake, was your claim I had never done anything in the North. As a republican activist for almost 20 years I have spent the 'odd night' in the North. Often, sadly, I have failed to call for a national strike or tried to sell the paper as a way to end the problem, being more concerned with preserving my hide through the use of cowardice when missiles and rocks have flown. Whether it was on the Garvaghy Road or in what Davy likes to call 'ghettos' I have spent a lot of time up there, and the contribution of the SWP has always been fairly minimal. I will admit, I have never spoken to an SWP member from the North, but then in years of activism up there, I very rarely came across any. For all I know, they are paragons of non-sectarianism, but I would be astonished to find so.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that republicans think people on the Left have an obligation to SF, and (Another mistake of yours) no-one actually says they do. The point is merely made that if the SWP could see the British League of Fascists and Racists take a seat instead of Sinn Fein, they'd be delighted because yes, they're just that sectarian. Your other abusive statements about SF are not just strewn with factual inaccuracies but have been dealt with before, and by better people than I. I would point out that republicans telling Bush to fuck off with his peace proposals is a queer sort of bending over backwards.

Another mistake of yours (My, how they add up) is to suggest that people in Dublin organising to support comrades in the North is a mistake. Solidarity and, for those of you who recognise the border internationalism, are fundamental concepts of what we on the left call socialism. While I disagree with McCann and his Trot friends, fair play to them for going up to Derry and having that level of dedication. One can admire the commitment, if not the people or their organisation.

Lastly, (Yet another mistake, dear oh dear) there are no professional anti-Trots. It's purely an amateur game and, like other amateur games in Ireland such as hurling, extremely popular at that. There are professional anti-republicans, thousands of them, tens of thousands indeed, whether in the media or in Loyalist Death Squads or the British Government.

Difference is, the British and Irish establishments see republicans as a threat, they don't even see Trots.

by PK Tue Nov 04, 2003 18:24

I understand the points you make on solildarity and border internationalism (less clear on that one) but the point that I was originally trying to make was that a group who are lecturing all the rest of the left to go back and build the anti-bin charges campaign in their local area (despite the fact that some of us have been at it for months/years) is appealing to its members and others to go canvassing for McCann for three weekends running.
Just seems odd to me.

by Juno Tue Nov 04, 2003 18:37

Who the fuck do you think you are saying there wouldn't have been an anti-war movement in Belfast were it not for the SWP. That's a complete load of crap. Sure they were there with everyone else but everyone else would still have been there without the SWP. The most active people at the time in Belfast were Ógra Sin Féin, ASF, Giro's crew and a number of schoolkids. These were the people who got arrested outside the US consulate, outside the City Hall, outside Hillsborough castle. Don't be spouting your shit here. Everyone deserves credit for the positive things they did at the time and they are too many to list, I've just noted the ones who had members arrested.

by anti-sectarian socialist Tue Nov 04, 2003 19:26

Bleat on, Juno. What world do you live in? You're either seriously deluded or so sectarian that you can't tell truth from fiction. Credit where credit is due? Yes, good thing the half dozen or so from Giros got involved, but if it had been up to them there would have been no _movement_. Likewise with Ogra: some very sharp, committed young comrades but we both know they can pretty much be counted on one hand.... I didn't say the SWP was the _only_ force involved in building the antiwar movement in Belfast, and I would have no problem acknowledging that others played a role. But I stand by what I said: without the SWP there would have been no mass antiwar movement in Belfast. And I have no doubt that any honest activist on the ground--from whatever organization--would acknowledge that.

by Bored Tue Nov 04, 2003 19:37

No your sectarian....no you are....no you are.

Without doubt the most used insult on indymedia now could someone have a stab as defining the word?

I'll start.

Sectarian; A word to be thrown at anyone of the left from others on the left when their argument has no logical progression to a valid point.

by California Red Tue Nov 04, 2003 19:42

As a Irish-american working class socialist , a former elected trade union official , and as someone who has been a supporter of the irish republican movement over the years , (albeit a critical one ) , I would beyond a doubt vote for eammon if i was able to do so . I have met him several times during his visits to the u.s. . (he emced the Celtic music and arts festival in san francisco several times ) and he impressed me and many others as a genuine anti-imperalist , a great journalist and a very open minded non sectarian socialist . I am not now nor have i ever been a member of his political tendency . I have big differences with his international org. But for that matter so has he ! (he told us once that he had left the irish party three times over the decades ! ) So he is hardly a dogmantic party hack ! So look at this if you will as another ''yank '' or ''plastic paddie '' intervention into the internal affairs of Ireland but i say vote for MCCANN !

by non-sectarian socialist Tue Nov 04, 2003 19:49

You say that in my suggestion that SF was bending over backwards not to offend the most right wing government in American history I have ignored "republicans telling Bush to fuck off with his peace proposals." Can you tell me when that happened? Details? I must have missed something.

by Cloud cuckoo land Tue Nov 04, 2003 19:52

"without the SWP there would have been no mass antiwar movement in Belfast"

What a funny self-important little world you live in! I wonder how the poor Spanish, Italians and Yanks managed without the SWP. Of course their movements probably weren't real 'mass movements,' just a few million people wondering about in a mass, bereft of the correct leadership to turn them into a real movement.

Try this little experiment. Next time there is a war, the SWP does nothing, just to see if a mass movement emerges on its own. Sure we can always come begging to you when we inevitably fail to get the masses onside.

by Peter Tue Nov 04, 2003 19:57 Navan

Was going good until I heard about East LONDONDerry. Just switched off now.
Follow RSF and spoil your vote, don't waste your time with all these British Quislings that are standing

by Janus Tue Nov 04, 2003 20:09

Bush came to Ireland. There was a 'Peace Process' meeting out of which he expected the result to be the IRA putting arms beyond use following his visit.

The IRA said no. Bush's visit to the Six Counties had no effect.

Just say no to drugs and Bush kids.

I'll assume by your failure to respond to anything else I posted in response to your rampantly sectarian diatribe that you can't be bothered.

On another note, the most right wing Government in history? Ever hear of a young Californian chappie by the name of Nixon? And that's just for starters. *sigh* I think I've found all your mistakes and others keep cropping up.

by non-sectarian socialist Tue Nov 04, 2003 20:55

right, janus. not sure how you can manage the 'we told them to fuck off' bit without signing off in embarrassment, but that's on you. i doubt there are many who will buy it, and will leave it at that.

i'm not interested in a rant against sf. i have no particular axe to grind--sectarian or otherwise--against them, and have much respect for the selflessness and dedication with which republicans threw themselves up against the british war machine over the years. i have worked with and enjoy a solid relationship with the best of them. but the shift that is now well underway in sf (and you acknowledged this somewhat in your own earlier comments, before you got carried away with defensiveness) is not peculiar to republicans. in much the same way the anc has leveraged the prestige built up over many years among black south africans to reconcile them to a new system of inequality and imperialist domination. in the north, sf supporters seem to be able to adjust themselves to every new turn by holding out hope that the leadership has got some plan that will reveal itself in time, something that will make the continuing concessions--to blair, to bush, to trimble worthwhile. my only point is that there is a price for admission to the club that bush controls, and that price is the severing of any connection with the project of socialism, let alone radical nationalism. the leadership sems to be willing to pay it, and supporters don't seem to be able to mount any objection.

this is the first time i've ever wasted any time on indymedia, and i can see why people would be turned off. if you're not a professional anti-trot, you and many others out here are underpaid. if you haven't met a non-sectarian swp member, you should probably get out of the house more. as to the nixon/bush debate, i'd say bush and company win hands down. maybe because nixon came to power in a different context, when the social movements--including the antiwar and black power movements--were still fairly strong, and u.s. imperialism was very much on the defensive, not even having begun to try to turn back its 'vietnam syndrome'.

for those coming in on the belfast antiwar movement, once more: pathetic stuff, from the peanut gallery.

by Davy Carlin - W/Belfast SWP Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:24 carlindavid at hotmail dot com

Just a few points as a bit of spare time before work. Firstly to Janus in relation to the Belfast SWP I believe we have always tried to reach out and work with others in a non sectarian way. Over the years our members have had to move home due to words to others, we had been put out of venues by similiar words, publications where circulated to people we were trying to work with outlinning a version of the SWP. Yet our re action was not to tackle in many cases sectarianism with more sectarianism.

The Belfast SWP is young in the sense that I would be one of its longest term members {seven years or so} so we have no 'political bagage' as such, this in relation to Belfast. Of course the history of the SWP is occasionally dragged up to us in relation to the SWP elsewhere of something that has been alleged. Yet I have learnt to at least attempt to work out difficulties with others { and it can be fucking hard at times} rather than getting wired into eachother as it gets us nowhere.

For me I would look to see a left wing person in a seat rather than a right wing one and I don't really understand what you are getting at there. For me if a person had a disagreement with someone else and if the disagreement is put forward in a genuinely constructive and non sectarian way then it should be replied to. The sectarians or 'others' who may come on indymedia to attempt division amongst constructive engagement can be seen for what they are and thus ignored.

To those who want to read a dtailed account of the Belfast Anti War Movement I have written a detailed account of it. From sitting in a room with three others and building a first march before Xmas of two hundred or so to then twenty thousand a few months later can be found on the Blanket {related link} under 'Building an anti war movement - part 1 {found under April edition, the blanket} and 'Building an anti war movement, moving to action - part 2 {found under june edition the blanket}. It is an A/C of the initiation of the BAWM and the StWC and of all the various actions

For me I believe that all groups may very well say they are non sectarian and would at times call others sectarian, which is a way of saying that they are only calling us sectarian because it is their sectarianism that is making them say it. I believe such is proven or not if others are prepared to work with you and would be prepared to support or speak out for you. As one who dislikes revisionism I have written and detailed the events the Belfast SWP have initiated and been to the forefront of in recent times.

For example on the back of the brilliant work of the W/Belfast firefighter support group we had initiated I and a Shankill Road activist where the ones going around organising, doing media build up for the falls shankill march, with this some organisation attempted to re vise this, even airbrushing me out of its history - but the truth is recorded.

Similiarly in the Anti War Movement {with debate still in this post}, we had initited it, we lead feeder marches all the way from Derry, a thousand strong one down the Falls Rd and another feeder march from south Belfast on the day of Feb 15th, with again more feeder marches from working class communities after that date. Then despite what other organisations say, in reality on Day X the students whom marched several hundred strong down the falls rd where organised on the falls road by SWP teachers and SAW student activist. Several hundred more lead by the huge SAW banners marched from south Belfast after SAW and BAWM activists and supporters - one thousand strong blocked of south Belfast rd. And yet another SAW feeder march came from another area. All this is well documented in the local media whom took hundreds of picture etc, some of the pictures are on the SWP NI website. Yet despite this other organisations will and have tried to tell their members other wise. I have heard tales of our working with ICTU, of our march and actions at the US consul and of Day X itself. Such is told to attempt to convince their members of a non reality while attempting to paint the Belfast SWP as the baddies, but it finds little hearing outside thier ranks as all those involved know the facts. Yet I write a/cs of such so it cannot be revised in the years to come.

Finally I firmly believe that one can be judged on what support one can garter, the Belfast SWP work without any problem with many many organisations in Belfast, for my self for example I was proposed {by a number of differing organisations} to get an anti racism meeting together and it has mushroomed from there. {A/CS on indymedia}. I believe that the left need to work togehter on many issues via many avenues but for that to happen we need to build up an element of trust with eachother, I think although difficult in the early days in Belfast where others directed severe sectarianism towards us it is now much easier as people and organisations have now had the chance to see how we really work rather than listen to others as to how they say we work. We seek to reach out and to work with all others who want to see a better world.

by Janus Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:42

Sectarian socialist: To begin with your factual errors, a tradition I llike to feel. I never said 'we' told him to fuck off. I am not a member of any republican political organisation.

Quite frankly, while you might have no interest in a rant against SF, you seem to have forced yourself to do so in a slew of posts on the subject on this thread, riddled with factual and analytical inaccuracies.

I certainly acknowledge a shift to the right within Sinn Fein, and it is one of the reasons I left the party but I deny I got defensive. I merely corrected the errors, and there were many, in the first post you made directly referring to me.

This is for me, not the first occasion I have wasted my time responding to sectarian attacks on republicans. Nor is it the first time correcting someone's factual errors has been misconstrued as defensiveness.

If you think Bush is worse than Nixon, all I can think is that you need to read a bit more. The 60s and 70s were high points of American imperialism, expecially in South East Asia. It was the time when the democratic Government of Chile was overthrown by the CIA. Daylight bombings of civilian targets carried out by heavy American bombers, millions killed in Vietnam alone.

Add to that the right wing bent in American internal affairs and while Bush is the worst President of America in my adult memory, he's no Nixon.

by dermot - DAWC Wed Nov 05, 2003 23:53

Is there some aspect of being "Irish American" and "californian", that adds extra weight to someone's argument? Like, an Irish American californian says vote for McCann, so we should. Gee whiz, I was confused before, thanks Irish American Californian, it's all clear now!! God bless you!! Bejabbers and begorrah.

by Joe Thu Nov 06, 2003 00:58

Goretti Horgan writes that "Marion Baur, who is standing for the SEA in the East Londonderry (sic) constituency is a member of the Communist Party."

Excuse my stupidity but is this the same Communist Party whose trade union members in the north consistently undermined those fighting British imperialism and asked people to support the forces of 'law and order'?

Is this the same Communist Party that supported Stalinist Russia and the slaughter of political opponents and others who wouldn't tow the line? Who supported the invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia? Who tried to impose totalitarianism throughout the world, and who almost turned 'socialism' into a credo non grata?

What the fuck are the SWP or any other anti-totalitarian socialists doing promoting these people?

I pose these questions to Gorretti Horgan and Davy Carlin or any other SWP member that's reading this thread. Why give credibility to the discredited? These people committed mass murder and gave socialism a bad name. Why are you helping them to regain a foothold in this country's political life? Their behaviour in the northern trade union movement has always been appalling!

by California Red Thu Nov 06, 2003 01:08

No,Dermot,there is nothing about being a Irish-american (whatever the hell that is exactly ! ) that lends importance or gravitas to my opinion about E.MCCANN . I merely stated that by way of identification .

by dermot - DAWC Thu Nov 06, 2003 19:34

>>No,Dermot,there is nothing about being a Irish-american (whatever the hell that is exactly ! )

Hey, you were the one who introduced the term here.

>>I merely stated that by way of identification .

You mean, with the same degree of relevance as I might introduce myself as "a Derryman" or "a Catholic man from Northern Ireland"?

by McCann Fan Thu Nov 06, 2003 20:22

Let me get this straight:

The SWP are bussing in their members from Dublin and Belfast to help the McCann campaign.

Their dedication is commendable.

It doesn't say much for their sense of priorities though, in the middle of the anti-bin tax struggle. A few extra votes for McCann isn't really all that signficant in the greater scheme of things.

Come to think of it, it doesn't say much for the local base of the campaign. I know that other parties do it on occasion, but shouldn't the real core of the work be manageable by the Derry people involved if this is any kind of serious run?

How well are the SWP expecting McCann to do?