The service charge con

by FABTC member Thu Sep 18, 2003 13:33

This is an excellent article Andrew. We should be pushing the point made in the article more as the propaganda war over the bin tax is really hotting up with the Council and the Government going on the offensive.

Would there be any chance of sending an edited version of the article into the newspapers or ringing up radio shows to make the point that the bin tax is a Regressive Tax?

I think that the simple point that Tony O'Reilly, Pat Kenny or some such millionaire pays exactly the same as a postal worker or a bin man would really go down well with people.

by Anonymous Thu Sep 18, 2003 14:02

Totally agree with FABTC member. This is an excellent article and Andrew sums up the situation very well. It has even helped to clarify the situation in my own head.

And I totally agree with FABTC member that this piece needs to be pushed onto the media - both written, oral & visual.

Im sure this may be done already - but if not - this type of info needs to be put down on a leaflet - and needs to be ditributed widely - and I mean WIDELY - as possible - into every home. Get all left wing groups & individuals to weigh in with their cash for printing!

The bin tax situation has been winning a lot of support & sympathy for the left over the last number of years.

As the third world debt situation crystallizes the destruction of capitalism and the hegemony of rich over poor on a global scale - so too does the bin tax situation on a national scale.

PUBLICISE it!!

by Andrew Thu Sep 18, 2003 14:06

I'd be more then happy for any spokesperson in the campaigns to use any of this or better yet write it up better. But as I don't have any offical position I can't do this on behalf of the campaign.

BTW I have sent something similar into the Pat Kenny show last week. It was not used though as far as I'm aware.

by country dweller Thu Sep 18, 2003 15:06

yes I've finally seen the light, and have sent this article into my local newspaper as a letter, I've gotten similar enough stuff published before, so I reckon this will be. I live in Sligo, and think this will strike a chord with a lot of people. I put my name to it, hope you don't mind, as they require this type of thing you know, but all credit to you, and if asked, I'll be sure to give you the credit for an excellent article indeed.

by joey Thu Sep 18, 2003 15:13

so should they increase income tax? i don't really understand. i live in the countryside and we always had to pay to have our bins collected. so instead in our household we loaded up a car trailer and paid to transport our rubbish to the dump every so often. should my income tax be paying to have the bins of a few moany city folk collected. i dont think so. i know the charges are phenominal and shouldn't be so high, but they should be paid. its a service, and all services can't be progressive.

by Andrew Thu Sep 18, 2003 15:29

Everyone in the country should get their bins collected. I'm not against tax. I'm against a flat rate tax that hits the poor and low paid hardest. Suggestions for raising revenue.

1. 90% tax on land speculations gains due to rezoning

Front page of the Indo yesterday has a story on a Finna Failer (Donal Kensella) who has just made 9 million because the Fianna Fail council has rezoned his land from farmland? (value 10,000 an acre) to industrial and commercial (200,000 an acre). Thats a 2000% profit for sitting on his arse - why not tax it at 99 or even 100%.

2. Tax corporations at the same sort of level PAYE workers are taxed

3. Tax income over 100,000 at a new 50% tax band

Those three alone would bring in 500 times more then the bin tax.

by Mean Green in Fingal Thu Sep 18, 2003 15:36

And I thought the socialists were against increasing taxes for PAYE workers.
They should tell the ill-informed protesters that they want to have tax increased and collected centrally, where there will be no accountability.

I can't understand how the anti-bin charge mob (lefties I presume) have rationalised this! The bin unions are for it because they want the service to stay in public hands. There have been plenty of warnings that privatisation is an option.

So now people in Fingal are looking at moving from the cheapest waste charge in the country, with the highest recycling rate and a waiver for 25% of the households, to a privatised charge (which will be significantly higher), no incentive to recycle and the possibilty of the removal of the waiver system.

And I thought the Socialists were for the people. Go figure

by Eoin Dubsky Thu Sep 18, 2003 15:47

I agree with the bin tax protestors, because they are resisting local governments'capitalist ploy dressed up in eco-friendly "polluter pays" jargon. Where I live there are almost no public services to speak of -- drinking water is a group scheme, bin collection in private, waste water is (supposed to be?) managed privately also, and there is no public transport. Welcome to Ballymoney, Co. Wexford.

I think that the polluter pays principle has to apply to waste management in Ireland though. Its not good enough to just pool everything together in taxes. REPAK must be exposed, and relpaced by an open and accountable organization which actually works to reduce harm to the environment, instead of dodging the rules. The spirit, if not the letter of, the EU waste management directive is being made an ass of by Ireland.

At the same time, I think that its not such a bad idea that end-users (you and me) should pay for the amount of waste which we in turn produce. It should work on a sliding scale, like: One small bin bag for every 1.5 people in your household is free (i.e. paid for in tax). After that you have to pay per extra bag. Those who reduce their waste save money (e.g. recycle, reuse, avoide one-way packaging, etc.)!

I don't believe that it should be privatised, but I think that financially penalising people for wasting more than they should (businesses and households included) is an acceptable way of trying to bring them around to being more greeny! :-)

by Andrew Thu Sep 18, 2003 15:51

You obviously can't read and it appears your economics are also not up to much.

I'll presume the other indymedia READERS can read and leave the taxation issue aside. But what about privitisation?

Well which of these two do you think your private company might prefer

Area A
Everyone pays their bin tax or their bins are not collected

Area B
Nobody pays their bin tax but the bins have to be collected anyway

I'm not an economist but it looks to me like are A is the place to run a bin service for profit. Area B seems to gurantee a loss. Most companies prefer profits to losses

by James Thu Sep 18, 2003 15:56

A quick report from last night’s public meeting in Stoneybatter.

About 70 people attended, apparently there was confusion about the venue (our fault) so many people missed it.

Committee members Joe Mooney and Dermot Sreenan gave background accounts and a speaker from Fingal and sp member– Susan (forgotten her surname) – gave a really inspiring piece about the blockades there. Respect to everybody who’s got them going. Hopefully we can do a good copy of them.

The contributions from the floor were angry and intelligent; people were sick of being taken for a ride by the state. A couple of anti-bertie jokes were very popular!

The main question discussed was what to do from here. Susan emphasised the need for blockades and local activists in the campaign stressed the need for moving from passive support – which is huge from talking to the people on the streets as well as at the meeting – to active involvement. Everybody thought blockades was a good idea and so we decided to give one a go tomorrow morning. We’re meeting up at 7.30 am at the Church on Aughrim Street. From talking to bin-workers they’re supportive as well. We’ll try and have some tea and cakes ready for them!

A reporter from the Tribune came up at the end and asked were we members of the sp. So there may be another red scare type story in the offing. There were anarchists and socialists involved in organising it – we live in the area - but the meeting consisted of 90% non-aligned locals. They’re the strength of this campaign. Hopefully the Tribune will realise that working class people can think for themselves and are against the double tax for genuine reasons.


To ruralers:
Do city-dwellers subsidise country folk when it comes to esb, postal service, obscure bus routes, telephone land lines? The cost of providing such sevices are higher than in the city, but are ye charged at a higher rate? I wouldn't want ye to be paying penal rates for these basic services.

anti-double tax campaigners want everybody's rubbish collected for free. Hopefully a victory in Dublin would prompt activity elsewhere. But you can't expect charges in the country to be abolished without making some effort yourselves. Us trying is not cause enough for ye to whinge.

by . Thu Sep 18, 2003 16:10

Just heard on 106 a truck has broken down on the Airport road (i think) - what an opportunity, if we head out there now with a few cups of tea and loads of attitude - we could chalk it down as todays first blockade in DCC!!!!!!!!!!!!!

only joking - best of luck in stoneybatter - fuck the tribune - when they go on about parties etc... we should just repeat our fundamentals... too often we let the media set the agenda - their questions are not important - what we say is.

ALL BINS OR NO BINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!JOIN THE BLOCKADES

by Mean Green in Fingal Thu Sep 18, 2003 16:13

to my experience the world is not black and white, as much as we would like it to be so.
It's very rare that one gets total compliance or total non-compliance, so might I suggest ;

Area C: Bins are not collected if they are not paid for. Waiver system is removed for those who currently receive it.

As long as enough people pay there isn't a problem.
Private contracters could start with say one truck and add more if necessary.
It seems that in many if not most areas in Ireland people are prepared to pay for private services, at much higher prices than those charged in Fingal.

Privatisation press release: http://www.fingalcoco.ie/NOTICES/Press_Release/2003/280203c.htm

by Andrew Thu Sep 18, 2003 16:24

In particular when you try and put words in the mouths of others.

You should do a little bit of study on this privitisation thing rather then beleiving the council. Here is the pattern for EVERY other bin service privitisation here

1. Council introduces bin charges
2. Council deals with opposition to charges
3. Council privitises service
4. Cost of charges starts to rise rapidly

The logic of the campaign is that nobody should pay charges. Once it becomes obvious that the council has to collect all bins then people who were scared into paying will stop paying. No one pays then no privitisation.

You MIGHT like to argue that there is some way for a company to make money out of collecting bins anyway. But the claim that it is EASIER to do so is ludicrous and at the end of the day that's what you are claiming.

Honestly the credibility of the Green Party here has fallen through the floor and your not doing anything to repair this by repeating council propaganda.

by Mean Green in Fingal Thu Sep 18, 2003 16:35

"The logic of the campaign is that nobody should pay charges"

Doesn't that mean that the charges will be paid through general taxation?

or does the waste fairy really exist?

by anti-reformist Thu Sep 18, 2003 16:46

When is the anti-bin tax crowd going to come and take my fucking rubbish away, the rats are begining to gather!!

The peoples bin collection services are needed. Responsibility must rest with the workers for bin collection and disposal. It should be taken right out of the hands of the greasy political parties and their (un)representative rule.

All this article calls for is the reformation of the tax system, tinkering with capatialism is not the answer we need.

At the end of the day the power will still be with the few.

NO REFORMS

by Badman Thu Sep 18, 2003 17:21

Have you been involved in the campaign?

by bjg Wed Oct 01, 2003 01:20

Under the Water Framework Directive, it seems inevitable that water charges will be introduced in the not-too-distant future. Again, the pattern will be for the government to make small changes gradually, avoiding any public discussion of issues of principle and hoping to create facts-on-the-ground before anyone notices. After that the water service can be privatised.

bjg

by girlwhosoldworld Fri Oct 03, 2003 21:59

You can hardly call this an unbiased article. There is obviously a socialist opinion in the article, and may I suggest just being more professional (awful word, but the only one appropriate) in order to present balanced facts