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The Saker
A bird's eye view of the vineyard

offsite link Alternative Copy of thesaker.is site is available Thu May 25, 2023 14:38 | Ice-Saker-V6bKu3nz
Alternative site: https://thesaker.si/saker-a... Site was created using the downloads provided Regards Herb

offsite link The Saker blog is now frozen Tue Feb 28, 2023 23:55 | The Saker
Dear friends As I have previously announced, we are now “freezing” the blog.  We are also making archives of the blog available for free download in various formats (see below). 

offsite link What do you make of the Russia and China Partnership? Tue Feb 28, 2023 16:26 | The Saker
by Mr. Allen for the Saker blog Over the last few years, we hear leaders from both Russia and China pronouncing that they have formed a relationship where there are

offsite link Moveable Feast Cafe 2023/02/27 ? Open Thread Mon Feb 27, 2023 19:00 | cafe-uploader
2023/02/27 19:00:02Welcome to the ‘Moveable Feast Cafe’. The ‘Moveable Feast’ is an open thread where readers can post wide ranging observations, articles, rants, off topic and have animate discussions of

offsite link The stage is set for Hybrid World War III Mon Feb 27, 2023 15:50 | The Saker
Pepe Escobar for the Saker blog A powerful feeling rhythms your skin and drums up your soul as you?re immersed in a long walk under persistent snow flurries, pinpointed by

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Public Inquiry
Interested in maladministration. Estd. 2005

offsite link RTEs Sarah McInerney ? Fianna Fail supporter? Anthony

offsite link Joe Duffy is dishonest and untrustworthy Anthony

offsite link Robert Watt complaint: Time for decision by SIPO Anthony

offsite link RTE in breach of its own editorial principles Anthony

offsite link Waiting for SIPO Anthony

Public Inquiry >>

Human Rights in Ireland
Indymedia Ireland is a volunteer-run non-commercial open publishing website for local and international news, opinion & analysis, press releases and events. Its main objective is to enable the public to participate in reporting and analysis of the news and other important events and aspects of our daily lives and thereby give a voice to people.

offsite link Julian Assange is finally free ! Tue Jun 25, 2024 21:11 | indy

offsite link Stand With Palestine: Workplace Day of Action on Naksa Day Thu May 30, 2024 21:55 | indy

offsite link It is Chemtrails Month and Time to Visit this Topic Thu May 30, 2024 00:01 | indy

offsite link Hamburg 14.05. "Rote" Flora Reoccupied By Internationalists Wed May 15, 2024 15:49 | Internationalist left

offsite link Eddie Hobbs Breaks the Silence Exposing the Hidden Agenda Behind the WHO Treaty Sat May 11, 2024 22:41 | indy

Human Rights in Ireland >>

Lockdown Skeptics

The Daily Sceptic

offsite link Green MP Proposes Sweeping Reforms to House of Commons in Maiden Speech Sat Jul 27, 2024 19:00 | Sean Walsh
The sweeping House of Commons reforms proposed by Green MP Ellie Chowns are evidence that the Mrs Dutt-Pauker types have moved from Peter Simple's columns into public life. We're in for a bumpy ride, says Sean Walsh.
The post Green MP Proposes Sweeping Reforms to House of Commons in Maiden Speech appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link Heat Pump Refuseniks Risk £2,000 Surge in Gas Bills Sat Jul 27, 2024 17:00 | Richard Eldred
With heat pump numbers forecast to rise, the energy watchdog Ofgem has predicted that bills for those who continue using gas boilers will surge.
The post Heat Pump Refuseniks Risk £2,000 Surge in Gas Bills appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link Debt-Funded GB Energy to Bet on the Costliest Electricity Generation Technologies Sat Jul 27, 2024 15:00 | David Turver
So much for Labour's pledge to cut energy bills by £300, says David Turver. Under GB Energy, our bills can only go one way, and that is up.
The post Debt-Funded GB Energy to Bet on the Costliest Electricity Generation Technologies appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link Christians Slam Paris Opening Ceremony for Woke Parody of ?Last Supper? Sat Jul 27, 2024 13:00 | Richard Eldred
Awful audio, bizarre performances, embarrassing gaffes and a woke 'Last Supper' parody that has outraged Christians turned the Paris Olympics opening ceremony into a rain-soaked disaster.
The post Christians Slam Paris Opening Ceremony for Woke Parody of ?Last Supper? appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link Victorian Laws Against Priests Meddling in Politics Are Now Needed More Than Ever ? To Prevent Imams... Sat Jul 27, 2024 11:46 | Steven Tucker
The Muslim Vote wants Labour to abolish Victorian ?spiritual influence? laws that prevent religious leaders from swaying voters, but Steven Tucker argues that in cities like Leicester these laws are more vital than ever.
The post Victorian Laws Against Priests Meddling in Politics Are Now Needed More Than Ever ? To Prevent Imams Doing the Same appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

Lockdown Skeptics >>

What forces will defeat the occupation of Iraq.

category international | anti-war / imperialism | opinion/analysis author Wednesday September 17, 2003 04:55author by john throne - labors militant voiceauthor email loughfinn at aol dot com Report this post to the editors

The occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan are not going according to the Whitehouse plan. A quagmire and defeat is increasingly looking to be the fate that faces imperialism. For the international working class and anti capitalist movement a victory for ther islamic fundamentalists in these countries would enormously complicate the world situation. In this statement from Labors Militant Voice we argue that the working class movement internationally should be linking with the workers movement in Iraq with the view to help is to take the leadership of the struggle to defeat the occupations and to build a new middle east free from imperialist domination and based instead on societies where the wealth is owned and utilised collectively and where decisions are made on the basis of the needs of the population and taken collectively and democratically.

The US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are not going according to the script written for them by the Bush regime. The objective of this crowd in the Whitehouse is to directly control the worlds oil supplies, to decisively establish their dominance over their rivals, and to take forward their offensive against the working class both at home and internationally. With every day that goes by the opposition to them grows in Iraq, Afghanistan and throughout the
Muslim world. The occupation forces are becoming bogged down in Iraq, while in
neighboring Afghanistan no progress is being made in extending the Karzai government’s rule outside Kabul. More soldiers have now been killed in Iraq since Bush declared the war over than were killed in the war.

The staggering arrogance of the Bush/ Rumsfeld/Cheyney team and its capitalist backers led them to believe that they could go in to Iraq, knock out the Hussein regime and then after a few minor mopping up details tell the Iraqi people what they were to do, what day they were going to do it on and how they were going to do it. A crucial part of this was to privatise Iraq’s oil which would allow the US oil corporations to buy up the country’s oil supplies. Bush and co are now learning that things are not so simple. Every day there are new shootings and bombings targeting the occupation forces and anybody who works with them. And with the majority Shia population now set to move into open
opposition the Southern part of the country is becoming hostile territory. The PKK in Turkey have declared their cease fire against the Turkish regime over, and a few days ago there were clashes in Northern Iraq between the Kurds and the Turkumen. Things are looking very bad for the occupiers.

Unfortunately it is the working class Iraqi people and the working class US and British soldiers who are paying the price for the ambitions of the Whitehouse regime. This is being increasingly reflected at home in the US where there is already an anti-war bring- them-home group of families of soldiers openly campaigning. There are also daily reports of soldiers in Iraq demanding to come home. One soldier when interviewed in Iraq openly said he would be in favor of criminal proceedings against Rumsfeld. And the cost of the war at a time of major cuts and deficits is becoming an issue. If this process of rising
opposition in Iraq and Afghanistan combined with rising opposition in the US continues then a crisis of major proportions will develop for US capitalism and its allies in the rich capitalist countries.

If they try to stay in Iraq and Afghanistan they will increasingly be targeted by militant Islamic groups from other countries as well as Iraqi fighters. As the Financial Times said fighters from all over the Muslim world are moving to Iraq because of the “abundance of American targets”. Staying there and taking increased casualties will lead to a powerful and sustained mass movement in the US and throughout the entire world against continued occupation. It is likely to be like the anti-Viet Nam war movement only it will develop much
more quickly, it will be more widely based and opposition in the occupation forces will develop much more rapidly.

A serious crisis can develop within the US army who can on occasion now apparently hook up with home, indymedia, anti war web sites, activist groups etc, by the inter net and cell phone. The home front and the realities on the ground are no longer so separated as in the past. The information and images between the battle ground and the home front is no longer so exclusively controlled by the government and the military. This is a change that weakens the ruling class control of the army and the situation at home and can contribute very quickly to an organized demand within the troops themselves to be brought home. This will be facilitated by the knowledge that the Bush regime lied about the reason he was going to war and now US soldiers are dying daily as a result of these lies.

While all anti capitalist activists want a withdrawal of the occupation forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and a withdrawal of Imperialism in all its forms from the region, the manner in which the US and British occupation forces would be driven from Iraq is of great importance for world events. If they have to
pull out defeated from Iraq and Afghanistan on the basis of the military efforts of Islamic militant groups then a powerful impetus will be given to Islamic fundamentalism throughout the entire Muslim world from North West Africa to Indonesia. Listen to what Kissinger, the war criminal and mass murderer of the Viet Nam war has to say. Quoted in the Financial Times of August 27th, 2003 and now pleading for the rest of the imperialist powers whose help they scorned a
few months ago to come to US assistance in Iraq he said: “We have to start from the assumption that whatever the previous debates, there is no exit now in the form of a retreat that would not cause a catastrophe for the west in the Islamic world.”

The question now for the capitalist war mongers like Bush and Kissinger and co is can this “catastrophe” be avoided. If it is not, and it is a rising fundamentalist Islamic movement, that is a reactionary movement, which would be seen to have defeated the US occupation then this would tend to give a powerful impetus to Islamic fundamentalism throughout the Muslim world. This would
enormously complicate the world situation for the anti-capitalist movement and the working class movement in general. A mass reactionary movement over a vast region of the world would be on the march. This would most likely also increase the forces of militant Hinduism in India with all the dangers inherent in that in relation to possible war with Pakistan.

And of course the most important result of such a development would be that this would further obscure the existence of the international working class as a force for change. US imperialism would have been seen to have been defeated not by the international working class or the international anti-war movement but by Islamic fundamentalism. In this regard one issue, the implications of which are difficult to see, and which could be a mitigating factor in the event of the Islamic fundamentalists winning a victory in Iraq, would be a successful overthrow of the Islamic regime in Iran. Such an event could possibly take some of the wind out of the sails of militant Islam.

All working class activists and anti capitalist activists outside Iraq have a special responsibility in the present situation. Our task is to try and assist the Iraqi working class organize itself as a class and take the lead in the battle against the occupation. Our task as well as opposing the war in our own countries is to link up with and work with the small working class forces trying to organize in Iraq. The unemployed workers, the small unions trying to organize, and to help these with material and political aid. Along with assisting the Iraqi working class organizations materially as much as possible our approach should suggest that the way forward should be to help develop a mass movement of working people united throughout all the regions of Iraq, Shia, Sunni, Kurdish, Turkumen, etc. and throughout the area as a
whole and for this united movement to take up the battle for the withdrawal of the occupying armies and imperialism in general from the middle east and for jobs, decent wages, homes, the restoration of electric power etc. For this united movement of the working class to take the lead in the struggle against the
occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan and to reconstruct these societies.

It would be vital that this working class movement would fight for the right of self determination of all the nations in the region. This would mean putting forward the idea that if successful the Iraqi working class will defend the right of the Kurdish people and all the oppressed nationalities in Iraq and
throughout the region to form their own countries if they so wished. At the same
time putting forward the idea of a socialist united states of the middle east. It would also be vital that this working class movement would take up the rights of women throughout the region, and that while standing for full
religious freedom for all it would oppose the domination of any one religion over any other. And of course that this movement would assist the Palestinian people in defeating the US backed Israeli occupation and winning a viable secure state of their own which would exist side by side with the Israeli state within
the 1967 borders.

Our suggestions should include the idea of organizing workers and farmers councils in all areas to work towards getting the basic infrastructure of society, electricity, water, etc functioning again. These councils would also take up the task of ending the looting and insecurity that exists. The working class
are the force that can do this like no other. At the same time these councils to organize as a mass movement and with the methods of general strikes and mass mobilization to defeat the plans of the thugs in the Bush Whitehouse and its corporate masters to control Iraq and to force out the occupation forces. A vital part of this process would be to appeal to the rank and file of the occupation forces on the ground and explain what they are doing and link with the rank and file of the occupation troops to force the occupation to end.

If such a movement can be built and were to take the lead in the struggle and to be seen to be the force that defeated the occupation and rebuilt Iraq, gave all nationalities their rights and women their rights, and if this movement
were to be seen to have been the force that defeated the occupation forces this would not only be a major defeat for the capitalist offensive, not only would it change the mass consciousness world wide but it would do so in a way that would make clear that it is the role and the methods of the working class that are most effective. It would help place the role of the international working class center stage
once again. Throughout the region it would evoke a massive movement of support in Iran and throughout the Arab world as the working people in these countries are disgusted with the corrupt regimes and enraged at the poverty that they are forced to live in while the oil and natural wealth of the region is shipped off to the imperialist countries with the connivance of the leaders of the oil producing countries. Out of this defeat of the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan could arise a revolutionary working class movement that could change the face of the globe.

The return of occupation forces to their home countries radicalized by such events would open the door to changing the situation in their home countries along the lines of developing working class movements to solve the problems. The entire world situation would be changed dramatically for the better. At the
moment due to the betrayals of the labor leaders and the failure of the left to build a mass base workers feel there is nothing they can do to stand up to and defeat the attacks they face every day. But if the Iraqi working class were to take the lead in the battle against the occupation and were seen to be the force that defeated this occupation this would create an alternative throughout the Islamic world to Islamic fundamentalism and it would put the working class and the methods of the working class, organization, mass mobilization, collective united action, general strike, internationalism, center stage once more.

However while working for this and helping our Iraqi brothers and sisters take the leadership of this struggle we have to also consider that a defeat of the occupation forces by Islamic fundamentalism is a very real possibility. And while in the US itself and throughout the non Islamic world a defeat for US Imperialism would tend to strengthen the rising opposition to capitalism's offensive and to the attempt by US imperialism to rule the world as never before, this would take place at the very high cost of strengthening the reactionary ideology of Islamic fundamentalism throughout the entire Islamic world.

Whichever way a defeat would be inflicted on the occupation forces in the US this would weaken Bush and the Republicans and probably open the way for the Democrats to return to the Whitehouse. Most likely it would also lead to an open split in the US ruling class over whether it should go back to the foreign policy of the Clinton regime which was to “police the world” in the interests of US capital and as much as possible do this in cooperation with the other major capitalist powers, or to continue with the Bush policy of “changing and remaking the world” in line with the interests of US capitalism and with little regard for any alliance with the other major capitalist powers. Such a split would help give confidence to all anti capitalist globalization and all anti war forces internationally.

#Unity with and assistance to the Iraqi working class movement.

#For the building of workers and peasants councils in Iraq and Afghanistan to take leadership and to organize the rebuilding of the country.

#For the Iraqi working class and the working class in the region to take the leadership of the fight against the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

#For the withdrawal of all occupation forces and for the right of the soldiers to organize themselves to deal with the problems they face.

#For the withdrawal of imperialism in all its forms from the region and for a socialist united states of the middle east within which all nations will have the right of self determination and within which there will be full equality between women and men.

#For a middle east in which the regimes which are puppets of the imperialist countries are overthrown and in which the wealth would be owned collectively and society organized democratically and collectively in the interest of peoples’ needs not in the interest of the profit mad corporations in the imperialist countries and their flunkies in the region.

Labors Militant Voice.

Related Link: http://laborsmilitantvoice.com
author by Mordechaipublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 07:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

is a one-way ticket to North Korea. You'll love it there!

Related Link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-819636,00.html
author by Justin Morahan - Peace Peoplepublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 08:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Your name reminds me of Israeli pacifist, Dr Mordechai Vanunu who is in jail in Israel for the past 17 years. (he got a one way ticket there).
His crime was to blow the whistle on Israel's programme to create nuclear weapons, or as George Bush, Tony Blair, Bertie Ahern call them "weapons of mass destruction".
He got 18 years for that.
A Vigil for his release will be held at the Israeli Embassy in Dublin and (at the present counting) eighteen other locations around the world on September 30th.

author by Mordechaipublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Your comment is completely irrelevant to this thread.

author by pat cpublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

And your comment about giving JT a tkt to N Korea was relevant???

author by Mordechaipublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

My first comment is completely relevant. It's a thing called 'satire'. Look this term up in a dictionary.

author by kokomeropublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Keep your satire to yourself Mordechai as it adds nothing to this debate.

Whatever replaces them when they depart the Brits and US have been meddling in the middle east for over half a century with disasterous results.

The local population has tried pretty much everything to get rid of them, even going as far as communist insurgency in the 60's and 70's when they were put down by the local puppet regeimes in Aden and Oman with the help of the SAS.

You can also bet your bottom dollar that the Brits and US decided to favour the spread of Muslim fundamentalism as a counter to the communist threat to their influence in the region.

The result has been an unmitigated disaster with Muslim fundamentalists turning out to be an even bigger threat than what they replaced.

Israel of course pioneered this with their approach to undermining Palestinian self-determination by any means including funding Hamas!

The sooner the Brits, US, Israelis and others involved get out and let these people govern themselves the better for all concerned.

No doubt it will mean more expensive oil but I for one don't care. It will force the yanks in particular to moderate their oil consumption getting rid of their Humvees etc.

author by pat cpublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 13:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Satire??? You'll have to do better than that!

author by lone gunmanpublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 13:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

With good ol COMMIE types in both Afghanistan,

{didnt work too well there either I remember in the Eighties either for the Reds from Moscow},
Iraq[Saddo for all his faults did the proper thing and got rid of the Reds there as well].

People will you Get real?Your form of politics is as bankrupt as the nazis and about as workable today as a medival kingship.Communism and Nazism are both dead and consinged to the dustbin of history as bankrupt political ideas.It's an Utopian pipe dream.

author by Brendanpublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 14:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

That article is like a pep talk for the faithful.
We must struggle for this and that.
denounce this and that.
where's the action to back it up? there's no mention of anything concrete.

author by resh.iosafpublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 15:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

How will the marxist trotties above propose to join two working class factions who have been divided since the death of the Prophet Muhumad PBUH?

author by Mordechaipublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 15:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yawn...

author by john throne - labors militant voicepublication date Thu Sep 18, 2003 04:41author email loughfinn at aol dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

Mordechai suggests I go to North Korea. This is only a different version of the red baiting I get here everyday. Only here the suggestion is that I go back to Ireland.

It is good to have different views on issues including here on Iraq and Afghanistan but it would be better if they had something to do with the situation in these countries. Those people who disagreed with me have not suggested any alternative. I would be very glad to hear of one. Perhaps it is better than the one I suggest. But so far I have heard none.

To the point that I suggested nothing concrete, I think that I suggested contacting the struggling workers groups there and getting them material support and engaging with them in discussion about the situation they face.

John Throne.

Related Link: http://laborsmilitantvoice.com
author by No 6publication date Thu Sep 18, 2003 05:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I can suggest that the solution to global overcrowding is to build cities on mars. I rent "Red planet" and see this as a constructive step forward.

Oh grow the fuck up John. Indymedia maybe a nice place for you to making glorious speeches rabble rousing the workers, but the real development in leftwing groups in the world in the past ten years, is caused by people getting off their arses and getting shit done.

You can make all the speeches telling people what must be done, but tell you what John over the next month why don't YOU try and contact Iraqi Labour groups and Iraqi Unions, why don't YOU find out what they need and why don't YOU take the first step towards this great glorious dominino row you invision. They post your results up here, and lets see where it goes.

But you're all mouth and no trousers.

author by analystpublication date Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

A thought inspired by the postings of 'no 6' - very enigmatic pen-name, by the way.

My point is that when people on the left disagree with each other, which is perfectly legitimate, why the need to resort to swearing and abuse? This does not amount to an argument. If you have a different approach to John, it gets lost in the invective. I doubt whether you would go to a trade union branch meeting and talk like that. People in such forums expect their opinions to be treated with respect and debated rather than abused. If I stood up at my union branch meeting and starting shouting that my opponents should grow the fuck up and were all mouth and no trousers, I would expect to be ejected in short order.

The fact that so much of the 'discussion' on the far left degenerates into the type of puerile shouting and name calling we see here from this person is one of the main reasosn why most working people avoid the whole thing.

Now, if you have a position to argue I would be glad to hear it, and give it a fair hearing. If you have more abuse, maybe you could let off steam in some other less public manner, rather than doing it here. It is just a friendly suggestion.

author by no 6publication date Thu Sep 18, 2003 17:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I find the arrogance of john galling and contemptable.

I think that his attitude swagger and self importance are actually damaging to the left.

To preach to us what must be done, and then tell us he has done his bit by showing us the path, but will not dirty himself with anything approaching work or effort.

Any can publish their plan and dreams, people should do their work

author by iosafpublication date Thu Sep 18, 2003 18:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

my comment yesterday pointing out the limitations of the gall and then recommending that we pie him was removed Number 6.

So try again:

John has written over a 1000 words and written them well. But he is an old-fashioned leftie, the type that irritates many of us, who do our best to live in the real world. We the type of modern "lefty" that regularly find ourselves sitting on the kerb, in front of important buildings, with people. real people. And finding ourselves agreeing with those we then royally take the piss out of in our cherished indymedia.

The main failing of John's "Iraqi working class arise and with a little help from the militant Irish Labour party (¿?¿?¿?) throw off the imperialist shackles" is that:

The working class of Iraq is not a unitary class.
The ordinary people of Iraq, the type you might find on the kerb having a smoke and a chat on how to carry on the protest, are primarily divided by an argument which occured at the beginning of the 7th century christian (& marxist leninist era).

The modern Iraqi people are either "suni" or "sh'ia" first, workers later. No-one is going to tell them that "religion is the opium of the people" and really no-one should try.

The last time "marxist leninism" was adapted for non Western ideologists was by either Mao Tse Tung or Ho Chi Minh and in both cases the result was catastrophic for the majority of people.

I still think that the Guardian (an english newspaper readership 300,000) [gives space to Monibot] columnist Martin Hoggart was right to agree with me in March, that the occupation of Iraq would be a "catch 23" situation. I wrote it here in Feb, Martin headlined his column exactly that a fortnight later.
Catch 23= chaotic to the point of idiocy.
Saddam held together a post imperialist structure, post "Islamic" imperial structure, not the British state most in Ireland seem to think about. Saddam did so with "modified" socialist theory, the Baath party was in the beginning nominally a pan arabic Marxist ideology.

The reason people don't offer real solutions for Iraq is because they've got it all wrong in the first place, ignorance of non Western History, culture and social forces is so pervasive that they try to "wish" solutions and analysis in a way which frankly is as imperialist as any public school English man of the 19th century trying to rationalist land reform in the West of Ireland.

Ergo: go learn about muslims, and their history, and then offer the Iraqi people solutions.
& pie John & pie Number 6.
they're both begging for it.

author by iosafpublication date Thu Sep 18, 2003 18:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

remember that the occupations of Palestine and Iraq are linked.
The Israeli military motive for the occupation of the Heights was the threat of missile attack from Iraq. Now that the alledged holder of missiles is gone, there is no threat. Israel has no justifiable military reason to hold the mountains to it's east.
If you really want to "_end_" the occupation then learn some more. I recommend examining maps and working towards your scoutbadge.

author by No 6publication date Thu Sep 18, 2003 18:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"I still think that the Guardian (an english newspaper readership 300,000) [gives space to Monibot] columnist Martin Hoggart was right to agree with me in March, that the occupation of Iraq would be a "catch 23" situation. I wrote it here in Feb, Martin headlined his column exactly that a fortnight later."

Yeah cause he read your piece and concured...

How does your ego fit down a phoneline

author by Mr ticklepublication date Thu Sep 18, 2003 18:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

then they will have to wait 134 years for the death total to reach that of the detah total in the vietnam war.

author by cde - socialist partypublication date Thu Sep 18, 2003 22:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

have you been following the bin tax campaign? Any thoughts or critisisms on it? The organisation of it is in some ways similar to what you were calling for before although on a single issue, but definitely a certain form of street committee organisations. Anyway just wondering what your thoughts on it are, without please starting another long bitching match if there's any trolls out there!!!!

author by john throne - labors militant voicepublication date Fri Sep 19, 2003 02:50author email loughfinn at aol dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

In response to the question from the SP Comrade about my thoughts on the bin tax. To the extent I have been able to follow it from where I live I am very excited about it and very proud to read about the role the SP Comrades are playing in it. As you say this is what I argue for, direct action against the attacks of the capitalist offensive. I also think that the f act that different groups are able to work together, as far as I know there are different groups some anarchist and some revolutionary socialist working together in this struggle, should suggest that some deeper conclusions should be drawn in the direction of building an anti capitalist direct action working class movement. I have been sending the information on the bin tax struggle to other groups and lists here and it has been inspiring to all who receive it. I hope that victory is achieved.

I will ignore the other contributions attacking me for supposedly just talking and writing, being inactive, etc. They are not true and the people who make them have no knowledge of what I am doing at the moment. I would still be interested in hearing what anybody else has to say about how the struggle against the occupation of Iraq could best go forward. Is it sufficient to just call for the end to the occupation and that is all? I do not think this is the case. For holding this opinion I am the object of all sorts of abuse? I do not think this is very constructive.

John Throne.

Related Link: http://laborsmilitantvoice.com
author by No 6publication date Fri Sep 19, 2003 18:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thats special by holding the moral highground you also get to do nothing

"I will ignore the other contributions attacking me for supposedly just talking and writing, being inactive, etc. They are not true and the people who make them have no knowledge of what I am doing at the moment"

What exactly are you doing at the moment? And why is more important that an issue which you claim is "vital" to the anti capatalist movement.

Get your arse and gear and muck in on this john, or are you too busy making pompous speeches?

author by ~publication date Fri Sep 19, 2003 20:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Digitalisation allows for all information that leaves your keyboard from Q to M to 1 to 0 from like it all to go into the mega-super-computer Number 6, where not even you are anonymous.

But hey you go through loads of doors before that.
how do _you_ want your pie pi?

author by No 6publication date Sun Sep 21, 2003 21:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Iosaf how witty. Surrealism. Dadaism. No match for an argument with y'know information and points, and meat.

But they're lost to you.

author by iosafpublication date Mon Sep 22, 2003 14:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Number 6!
What is happening to us? only less than a week ago you Number 6 with your facts and figures and me with the Surrealism were _*_united_*_ heckling the Militant voice of Labour together, and now look at us, sniping and grumbling and falling back into the old ways.
Number 6, you are not completely right but nor am I completely wrong, let us put our difference behind us for a while. Can't you see the Militant voice of Labour will only go ignored if we keep these silly fights up. I think we dismissed John Throne too quickly, come back John, we need you and your labour militants.
show us the way!

author by No 6publication date Mon Sep 22, 2003 14:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yes lets united.

John baby, you still haven't got back to us, explaining what you're doing, and how it's more important, than helping united the proles in Iraqi and the west. You tell us it's vital, yet don't tell us whats keeping you away from mucking in.

Mayhap it's your new speech that you're working on telling us what we should focus on and do next.

You like making speeches don't you John, and giving orders, but you're not a boss oh no, you're providing us with your guideance and wisdom. I look forward to your benvolent leadership when the revolution comes, I'll enjoy my cold bed in my re education camp safe in the knowledge that comrade throne, is in charge, and letting us know what to do.

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