Suicide - Swept under the Carpet

national | miscellaneous | feature

Friday September 12, 2003 13:28

by David

Because he (My Father) died suddenly it was necessarily for a post mortem to be carried out. I learned that there were 9 autopsies on 9 other suicides in the mid west region over the previous 2 days. The day after My father died, while the body was being removed from the family home, I heard an ambulance respond to an emergency. It passed my house and I remember one man say to me, "it's terrible, some other family might have to deal with a tragedy". The next day i learned that the ambulance had been called in response to another suicide, a neighbour had killed herself. The neighbour, also mentally ill from bi-polar disorder killed herself while her husband was at my fathers funeral.

My point is that these deaths were ignored by the public at large. Every tragic car accident is reported on the news, people realise how dangerous cars can be, there are measures being taken, lots of money being spent to try to reduce these car accidents. However, when a person takes his or her own life there is a hushed silence, whispers behind closed curtains, Very often the family will not disclose the cause of death, instead preferring to ascribe a more "acceptable" departure to their troubled loved one.

In 2001 448 people officially took their own lives, there were 366 road deaths over that same period (some of those accidents were likely to have been suicides)
These official figures are without doubt much lower than the true scope of the problem

On August 18 2003 Adrian Rynne, My father, took his own life. For over a decade he had suffered from Bi-Polar disorder a disease much mis-understood and much ignored and during a brief period of lucididy between his highs and lows he decided that he no longer wanted to live the life of a heavily medicated shadow so he took a cocktail of the 15 prescription mind altering drugs that were assigned to him so that he would no longer be a burdon on society or his family.

Because he died suddenly it was necessarily for a post mortem to be carried out. I learned that there were 9 autopsies on 9 other suicides in the mid west region over the previous 2 days. The day after My father died while, the body was being removed from the family home, I heard an ambulance respond to an emergency. It passed my house and I remember one man say to me, "it's terrible, some other family might have to deal with a tragedy". The next day i learned that the ambulance had been called in response to another suicide, a neighbour had killed herself. The neighbour, also mentally ill from bi-polar disorder killed herself while her husband was at my fathers funeral.

My point is that these deaths were ignored by the public at large. Every tragic car accident is reported on the news, people realise how dangerous cars can be, there are measures being taken, lots of money being spent to try to reduce these car accidents. However, when a person takes his or her own life there is a hushed silence, whispers behind closed curtains, Very often the family will not disclose the cause fo death, instead preferring to ascribe a more "acceptable" departure to their troubled loved one.
Why is there not slot on the national news, "there were 4 people killed on Irish roads...... And 6 People took their own lives" Why isn't there funding for organisations who do so much work to combat depression? (Aware for example) Why are the mental health services so horribly inadequate? In Ireland there is no middle ground. there is all or nothing, either treatment at all or psychiatric incarceration. The only "help" offered is in the form of psychiatirc drugs that deal only with the nuisance factor of a disturbed individual with very little focus on the person who is suffering. The only help available to my father was a 4 hour drive away, a short meeting where he would be fitted out for a new suite of drugs on trial and error. The doctor tried his very best but he could not provide what was really needed. The state looking for economies of scale is failing some of the most vulnerable people in our society.

Suicides are not restricted to people suffering mental illness. We no longer live in a society, living in dormatory towns commute to work, drive home, watch imaginary people on a flourescant box. Our social interaction is being condenced to convenient packages that will not interfere with our economic productivity. The pressure to achieve is now stronger than ever disaffected youth are more disaffected than ever, the support from a community is disappearing into oblivion. Do you know your next door neighbour? If you do you're in the minority. People have never felt so alone and they don't feel life is worth living so they decide to stop living.

There will be no outcry as long as there is consensus to ignore suicides in this country. Until the blissfully unaware person on the street can see that it's not a small problem, that it's a tragedy that affects thousands of people every day.

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Comments (34 of 34)

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Thanks David

by pat c

Thu Sep 11, 2003 15:48

That was a real piece of journalism. It came at an important time, with the suicide in Cancun, your piece has put things in perspective. Suicide id something to be faced up, it must neither be glorified or ignored.

Great article David,

by Badman

Thu Sep 11, 2003 15:49

This is what indymedia can be at it's best: genuine original journalism that the mainstream won't touch.

indymedia gives poor coverage to the mental health system

by healthy boy

Thu Sep 11, 2003 16:19

or even to the health system in general, so stop patting yourselves on the back.

suicide is a difficult issue to tackle

by pc

Thu Sep 11, 2003 16:27

the mental health services are terrible, the staff are overrun ill accept but you keep hearing stories of people being turned away for acting up and then what happens to them ,i was constantly told i was actiong up when i got upset or angry at my treatment by them.

One usually tries not to lay the blame at the door of the nurses or civil servents who don't get the funding for their work but in the civil service (social welfare dept). I personally experienced there ineptness and how they deal with forms not people. There should be someone who looks over a person entire cases so the form stampers don't miss anything. They don't just say sorry we don't ahve the resources the say your acting up maybe the jobs getting to them? The civil service will never put themselves out to point you in the right direction.

and the medical assemsment they have for people to get on disability or ridiclous 5 mins from an unqualified gp. then they tell ya they can't give it out to many people cos there so many ripping it off, i don't know why they tell that to me i ain't/wasn't ripping it off

theres a good site on the net called blackdog.net
for you interenet types out there, it has a good dicussion forum of irish males and there experience so you chat or get advice its help out by beaument hospital and the guy who must tireless run it.(ps girls use it too)

my experience of aware is that they might be good to talk to but they don't have much info on helping you get yourself sorted out through the system.

ah good rant :)

soulless society

by sean fleming

I think this also points out the very clear problems that exist within the psychiatric system. Drugs are seen as a quick fix solution and often cause more problems for the individual concerned. There needs to be a more holistic approach to mental suffering. The reality is the Irish Government seems to care little for those who suffer severe mental distress. I reject the way in which psychiatry labels people 'mentally ill' as I see it as an attack on an individual who has likely suffered enough already. Many such people are at risk of suicide.Sadly we live in a society which cares little or nothing for such people.

Indymedia provides the coverage you write

by Andrew

Thu Sep 11, 2003 16:33

If you want more health related stories then you or someone else needs to write them. That's what indymedia is about, it provides a publication space for other, it does not provide content.

Support AWARE, today, tomorrow and Saturday

by Anonymous

Thu Sep 11, 2003 16:55

Daisy Days, Aware's major national collection is taking place over the next 3 days.

They are looking for volunteers for collecting, contact Niamh or Deirdre on (01) 661 7211 - or support them in your local shopping centre.

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60964&results_offset=40

http://www.aware.ie/

http://www.aware.ie/fund.html

______________________________________________________________________________________

Brilliant article David. As reflected in your article it is now wonder Aware call themselves Aware. Hopefully things will change and we can all make this change happen.

My deepest commiserations on the trajic death of your Father.

a personal example

by Kev

Suicide is without doubt a serious problem in this country.

My first introduction to suicide was in 1989 (aged 9) when my uncle shot himself with his hunting rifle.

Aged 14, an ex girlfriend of mine tried to overdose on her mother's medication. She had to have her stomach pumped.

Two years ago, an ex-classmate's sister hanged herself.

Last year another lad, who I hardly knew except to have a quick chat with, hanged himself.

I found out last night, that a person who has become a friend more recently, was prevented from killing himself by my cousin.

Most recently (3 weeks ago), an old and good friend of mine, purposely took a heroin overdose to end his life. Unfortunatley, it worked, and he is now dead.

Personally, I suffer from some kind of bi-polar/schizoid disorder. So does my father. But I've never had it diagnosed - what's the point? I don't wanna be pumped full of medication.

Where does my 'fear of medication' come from? Well, another ex-girlfreind once told me that when she was 15, she had a breakdown. The doctors' advice was to put her on a 5 year medication course! At age 15!!! If that's the kind of medical advice we are given, then I'd rather not be part of it.

I'm not quite sure what the point of this comment is really. I guess what I'm trying to say is that my example, as a normal person (I don't hang around with a load of self pityers or anthimg like that) is probably repeated by virtually every other person in Ireland. Sucicide affects most people in this country. But where is the sensationalism the likes of which is attached to the 'drugs problem', crime or road deaths?

As an aside, to the person bitching about indymedia's lack of coverage of 'health issues' I'd like to say, why don't you write something yourself in that case? Indymedia is what people, such as the person who wrote this article, put into it.

david

by mick

Thu Sep 11, 2003 17:04

I wonder how the effectiveness of the new prosac type drugs is measured. They're supposed to be so good but I don't see people being any less depressed than they were ten years ago. I live in Ballymun and I can really sympathise with David.People are taking their lives out here all the time and it just doesnot get reported. In my block of flats a few weeks back a young fella lit a cigarrette called out goodbye to all his mates then threw himself off the balconey.I told this to somebody I know in the estate who said that in the past 3 weeks he knew of four other people in ballymun who had taken their own lives.
We have a local ,free giveaway, newspaper out here ,their slogan is "We only print the positive news" or some such drivel. Isn't denial part of the problem? Good report David thanks

I apologise for the small errors...

Thu Sep 11, 2003 17:13

I should have proof read it much more thoroughly. Minor spelling and typographical mistakes tend to dilute the impact of what i wanted to say. I should also have included a link to aware's home page or a more detailed reference to their services but i was pressed for time.

There is a stated reason why media outlets do not report

Thu Sep 11, 2003 18:11

Sociologists have been argueing about suicide for the last hundred years and i think a (false) consensus has been reached that talking openly about suicide results in copycat suicide cases or "suicide pockets" where small areas have hugely disproportionate amounts of people who take their own lives.
I think they are looking at the problem the wrong way. their attitude is ~if we don't talk about it then people won't consider doing it themseves~
That's obviously rubbish If they don't talk about it then people who are feeling distraught will think that they are on their own or that there must be something wrong with them. Most people who kill themselves do so because they believe that their lives are never going to get any better and that the world is more worthwhile without them. They would think this whether or not the newspapers report cases of suicides. Another reason the media are afraid to report suicide is because the families are often very sensitive about how their loved one died. This is part of the vicious cycle that is started and continued by shutting it away and maintaining the attached stigma.

In response to some of the posts about the psychiatric drugs that are forced on people, i agree wholeheartedly. My grandmother said something after the funeral that really sticks in my mind. She said "I want adrian Back, But I want the real adrian, not the zombie that took over his body for the last few years" The disease is like a cancer and the drugs are like perpetual chemotherapy. The body survives but the person is not really living while the drugs are having their effect. At least with chemotherapy once the disease is beaten the person can recover and lead a full life. With mental illness there is little hope of a cure. In that way, In this society, Suicide can be stood side by side with euthanasia because what's the point in living without dignity?

Of course if my father had told us he was going to Kill himself we would have tried to stop him, we would have held out a hope that one day his life would once again be worth living for him. Maybe our hope was misguided.

.......

by AL

Thu Sep 11, 2003 18:25

too many people i knew, or knew of through others, have taken their own lives. well done for getting it up here david.
but to hear people rattle on and blame the government and the health system is pure bullshit because its these same people who point the finger at the same system for everything. the system is a product of a society too hell bent on only serving its material and self-serving needs. you are part of that society and through silence you too are part of the problem and therefore share some of the blame.
when is the last time you sat down talking to a stranger in a pub, a bus, a park, where ever you are, and just listened and talked? when have you really listened to a friend, really listened, and not started spouting your version of how things should be done (a tendency all too often present with people on indymedia) only to continue the forced silence many people who contemplate sucide believe they are experiencing?

What does suicide say about the state of capitalist, western society?

Thu Sep 11, 2003 18:53

Suicide is just another indicator of the horrendrous structure of capitalism.

From the rat race of the points system, to the rat race of finding work to try and elk out a living - often on nothing of a salary for grinding hard work. The haves and have not society. The one's who succeed and the ones who don't succeed.

Capitalism is based on the animalistic principle where by only the fittest survive.

We need a society that is based on people's needs - not on profit.

I believe while capitalism continues to exist, so will suicide, in the horrific numbers that we see.

It must be changed.

actually, just looking thru the examiner website

Thu Sep 11, 2003 19:24

(Actually lloking for the article Mick Barry wrote about the Bin Tax, but it doesn't seem to be there. Anyone have a copy email thekevolution@yahoo.co.uk cheers - anyway, I found this)

One in six people think of suicide

By Evelyn Ring
MORE than one in six Irish people have suicidal thoughts, the highest rate in a survey of six European countries, research shows.

Psychiatrist Prof Patricia Casey, who yesterday launched Aware's depression awareness week, said Ireland and Britain had the highest prevalence of depressive disorders at 12%. The research showed that such thoughts were clearly linked to a depressed mood, she said.

Prof Casey said all post-suicide studies had clearly identified depressive illness and alcohol dependence as being overwhelmingly the strongest suicide risk factors. Alcohol was a factor in over two out of three cases of deliberate self-harm and must be treated aggressively, she said. While the State had a regulatory role to play, parents must take the lead in instilling in their children a sense of respect for alcohol. “We must do this, if we are to hope to overcome the darkness that binge drinking manifests,” she said.

The professor of psychiatry at Dublin’s Mater Hospital was particularly anxious that the public also realised that depression, an illness that carried a lifetime risk of up to 30%, was a very treatable illness. Unfortunately, she said, there were still many myths about depression. In particular, there was the mistaken belief that drugs were second best and that taking anti-depression drugs was a sign of weakness or an easy way out.

Some people also believed that all a depressed person needed was counselling to find the root cause.

“This may be the case when the low mood is due to circumstances [termed stress reactions] but, if a depressive illness is diagnosed, then counselling alone will not be of any benefit,” she warned.

Prof Casey said it was unfortunate that recently there had been a "vitriolic attack" on psychiatry as a profession. She was not an apologist for poor standards of care or for unfeeling doctors but, in stigmatising the speciality of psychiatry, we stigmatised those who needed psychiatric help for what were potentially fatal disorders.

“When suicidal ideas develop in the context of depressive illness then anti-depressants are the most effective treatment and to not prescribe these treatments could leave the doctor open to charges of medical negligence should suicide be the end point,” she warned. “The challenge to psychiatry is to be able to distinguish the sad and unhappy from those who are ill - a distinction that is always missed by the critics of psychiatry who see everything as a reaction to circumstances and never an illness.

beware AWARE

by Niall

Thu Sep 11, 2003 19:26

AWARE support the drug industry as the only real effective means of treating dpression. I would caution people about becoming involved or supporting such a group.They often don't emphasise how personal and societal factors are involved in depression. Putting it all down to chemicals in someone's brain is a cop-out.

Sadness

by Liz

Thu Sep 11, 2003 19:31

I don't have the same experience of most of the people who've contributed here, I know only of some people not very closely connected to me who have taken their own lives, or tried to. But I know alot of people who suffer from depression. Mainly that's because I come from a small town, where everybody knows everybody else.

I think our society has always tried to sweep issues like this under the carpet. I don't think it's got as much to do with how well you know your neighbour, as with how well you can communicate with anyone. If you have a wide circle of friends, the impact can be the same as having none if they all look the other way the minute a real issue comes up for discussion.

Irish people have a real fear of mental illness, and I include myself here. It's a fear that I can't explain or justify. Growing up in rural Ireland was a bizarre experience where everything is known and everything is hidden. When people discuss each other they can be very cruel, and I remember for instance hearing about a nasty remark made by a woman in a shop about someone who killed himself. When there are people like that around who speak their minds so thoughtlessly (see for example the posting above, unless it's been removed) people who suffer need even more the openness and understanding it's so hard to find. And it's made harder when the ideal is to be successful and happy and not affiliated to that kind of suffering.

I got the feeling when I was a teenager (which is almost ten years ago now) that there was a big secret that everyone was in on but that nobody referred to. The secret was sexual abuse and marriage break-up and unemployment. What I didn't include was mental illness or depression, which I didn't realise then that you could suffer from without having a reason. All of these things have been brushed under the carpet by us collectively as a society, whether urban or rural, as we try to live up to our own standards of being 'great crack' and always telling jokes and stories and laughing. It's only acceptable to get a bit down when there's been drink involved.

And now ten years on, as David pointed out, the problem is driving an hour and a half to work, being stuck in traffic, coming home exhausted, only able for tv, and all the while working to pay off a mortgage or rent.

I don't blame the GP's, they're trying to stop a gap, and they're under resourced financially and time-wise. What we need to do is admit that there's a problem and give it time. As has been said here already people need to have time and energy lavished on them, not drugs, if they're going to be put on the road to recovery. They need people to listen.

It was very brave to do what you did, David, in getting this started and talking about your father like that. I'm sorry you had to go through that pain.

Capitalism

Thu Sep 11, 2003 21:09

I don't think its accurate to blame suicide or mental illness solely on capitalism, or to suggest that emotional suffering will end if the system is overthrown. That is not true, there is suicide in every culture, often for very diffeent reasons. There are suicides based on honourable death such as practised by the Bushido warriers in ancient japan and such code still survives in japan and similar cultures up to this day. The problem is not suicide by itself, it is the current causes of suicide in Ireland right now that we should focus on.

I would dearly like to know what proportion of people in "advanced" cultures are currently engaged in therapy, councilling or are on a course of mood altering. I am convinced that is a large proportion of people, much more than would have been should the same facilities have existed a hundred years ago.
I would also like to challenge the notion that alcohol is responsible for depression. I would like to suggest that maybe alcohol abuse is a symptom, that the underlying caused of depression existed before the individual saught to find an escape. I would accept that often alcohol would exhasperate the situation but i would be skeptical to believe that if alcohol was banned or made unavailable to depressed people that their depression would become any less severe

To Mick

by sean

Thu Sep 11, 2003 23:19

Hi Mick- in relation to what you said you might want to check out the following links

http://www.breggin.com/prozac.html

http://www.breggin.com/bulletinprozac5.html

Aware

by pat

Fri Sep 12, 2003 00:56

Isn't it the case that Aware receive funding from a number of pharmaceutical companies making these ' drug treatments' to combat depression. Surely they are not coming to this from an impartial position? Sadly the people who front Aware are not able to question these issues and think for themselves. They are insufferably bland individuals who would rather patronise people suffering from depression.

Unimpressed

by Moi

Fri Sep 12, 2003 03:03

Unimpressed = seainin, the yellow little arsehole.

Capitalism - Not the only cause, but a major contributing factor

Fri Sep 12, 2003 11:06

I agree David, suicide is certainly not to be solely blamed on capitalism.

But I believe it is certainly a large contributing factor.

I know of several suicides, some personally, where money, financial problems and work problems were a key issue.

Capitalism places profit at the centre of its ideology. People are a very distant second. In such an ideology which places profit ahead of peoples needs and leads to a total unequal society, I think it is fairly obvious that it is not going to have a positive impact on peoples needs. Especially those who really in need.

As I said capitalism is based on the priciple of survival of the fittest.

There are many ways capitalism affects suicide, many which are very subtle - I don't have the time to go into them all here now.

One for example is the education system - which besides the pressure for points and college places - the whole system is geared towards industry, i.e. to making money/profit.

I believe the system needs a massive, radical overhaul. All of us as human beings have to live with ourselves and others for the whole of our lives. Hence is it not important that we learn about ourselves, others, and our relationship with others? Is it not important that we learn what makes us tick, that we learn about our make up, both mentally & phsically? Is happiness not the most important thing in life? Should it hence not become a study and not just left up to chance?

Things are slowly beginning to improve in the education system but there is so much futher to go, and not just about the above, but about a million other things as well.

As you say, and I certainly agree with, capitalism is obviously not the only cause, but I belive it is one of the major contributing factors if not thy major one.

Regards.

Agreed..

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:28

I would also like to propose that maybe the reason why so much suicide and mental ilness is ignored has something to do with the conception that those who die were not contributing economically to society. Because of this, there is very little incentive, for the unfeeling system, to keep them alive. Just as when an elderly person dies there is very little coverage of that event because they have finished their period of usefulness to the capitalist system and are now a burdon, draining resources away from what is seen as most important. The most loyal servant of the economic system is quickly discarded as soon as a crack appears that makes him/her no longer an efficiant factor of production.

Agreed again - Aware quarterly magazine - Contact the media

Fri Sep 12, 2003 13:59

Agreed again David about your above comment.

Aware produce a quarterly magazine and are always looking for articles. I'm sure they would be interested in your article here.

Send to:-

Lynn Greene, Aware, 72 Lower Leeson Street, Dublin 2

or email lynn.greene@aware.ie

Would also be interesting to hear what Aware have to say about why suicide is being swept under the carpet.

Would be interesting too, to contact the media directly and ask them why do they pulicise it like they do road fatalities - though I know it will be hard to get responses - but it is always worth a shot.

well done david.

by angry liberal

Fri Sep 12, 2003 16:09

renrir666 at hotmail dot com

thanks to dave for having the guts to write that.suicide is not exclusive to those with mental illnesses but the sources of help are often the same and are totally inadequate.amnesty international started a campaign in february on the issue of mental health care as a human right(UN principles on the treatment of people with mental illnesses says that peolpe have the right to the best available health care)and have found the governments approach to funding and education(failure to exspell the stigma or to prepare people through occupational therapy for life after treatment)to be lacking.the irish inspector of mental hospitals in the 2001 report slammed the physical examination and living conditions of many patients while the WHO report on mental illness says that one in four of us will suffer from a mental or neurological disease at some point in our lives.the irish system,as it is,also fails groups such as prisoners and the homeless.those in prison in our country are often made to wait in detention cells as there are insufficient beds in the relevant institution.there are often removed before being cured,while juvenile offenders are sometimes incarcerated in these institutions.previous government policy(which could succeed if it was fully implemented) closed down many of irelands mental institutions but provided no safety net for those being treated.there are thus over 1,500

Hidden Pain

by El Momo

Tue Sep 16, 2003 13:06

All agreed, suicide is hidden from the public eye in this a growing european country. How pathetic. This is why people feel alone. There is no escape. There are no other options.

I believe, having dealt with the suicide of my closest friend in, yes youve guessed it, a small rural village in ireland, the reasons for hiding this are the shame a family feels.

Many may not agree, but while all the locals turn up to the funeral and give their comdolinses what are they really thinking? They are thinking, so what happened in this family? Where was this person pushed to do this? Imagine this on a national basis?

You may not know the person on the news but people will think the same. The family hide the suicide for their own comfort. Harsh you might think, yet if you but yourself in this place, you may think the same.

Also to blame is the catholic church. Suicide I believe they preach,is a mortal sin, as God must decide when you leave this world and not the individual. So again while a rural setting deals with this tragedy what is the priest thinking? Is it a mortal sin which leaves this person escaping from this world only to end up in pergetry or worst hell, if this is how we are meant to go. Suicide has many causes and in the vast majority of cases we can only guess the reasons for a person going to this extreme.

Like most young people in Ireland I have often thought of suicide as a solution and permanent escape from lifes problems and times of depression but who know when or why I was thinking these thoughts. How can it ever be prevented? If an individual admits to these thought they are subjected to too much attention which again may drive them further into dispair.

Suicide is a huge and growing problem yet attempting to prevent it may well worsen the problem. Im not suggesting nothing should be done, just that not everyone wants help. But the reasons for keeping suicide hidden from the public eye must be addressed.

David, a topic Im glad youve opened.
I didnt have the bottle too.

I thank you.

The catholic church..

Tue Sep 16, 2003 14:21

I am very glad that the strangle hold is lifting. I am glad that their policy of not burying suicide victims on consecrated ground has ended, (maybe not officially) It is important for any family to have a place to grieve and in this society that place is, for the majority, in a grave yard and the ceremony is a Catholic Funeral.
(although i was very aware of the Priests basically touting for business from the pulpet, mentioning memories of My father bringing us to church every week (even though we stopped going when i was about 12), but this is all kinda beside the point.

I don't ask the media to name the people involved in suicides or identify the people who die, merely, as a start, to report the numbers, to have a national outcry just like there is when road deaths are announced.

Although i sincerely do hope that such a development would not result in counter productive right wing emergency measures

the Church of England.

by iosaf

Tue Sep 16, 2003 14:40

ok it's a personal detail and might be irritating to some but I was trained as an organist in a cathedral tradition, the last appointment I ever held as an organist was in a Church of England parish in London. Organists see more weddings, funerals, naming ceremonies, memorial services than any other section of society excluding clergy. We have a slightly different perspective as well, usually the clergy are dressed up "frocked up" the focus of attention, whilst the organist is out of sight, up in the gallery looking down via mirrors on the assembled community. The last service I played in London was the funeral of a dental student 22yrs old who had suicided. His family thought he had been doing so so well, he was studying at Bristol relatively far from London where he had grown up. Some of his student friends came from Bristol and sat apart from the neighbour friends. The English as a national type, and I do maintain there are national types (if not stereotypes) are very good at "being discreet". The vicar whom I counted as one of my personal friends in those years and more a friend to my community (of squatters, Italian and Spanish mostly of nominally catholic background) did his best with such a difficult situation. His chinese born wife (Hong Kong) had proposed to the family to open a book of memories of the life but with an added section for those who felt the need to "justify/offer reason" for the young man's actions. We (those used to being in that building for our various purposes) knew, that generally people only enter for Birth, Marriage or Death. The realism of "faith" and "doubt", "anger" and "confusion" of people brought together many of whom held profound distrust of each other left a lasting impression on me. The way that this death was handled at least at the "official" level of supposed wider community was the right one. IF i can paraphrase the words :"Only God may know why this happened".

I think it a very good sign that the indymedia readers, writers etc., are touching upon some of the ·realest· issues that affect us as members of a community, in the last weeks. Suicide, depression, use of psychiatry are all issues unspoken but as relevant to our "communities" needs and wants as any review of GDP/GNP/rates of inflation or diplomatic treaty.

Thank you David. By some odd twist, the young dental student's name was David as well. May he and all rest in peace, if there is a peace to rest in.

i have had depression for years

Tue Sep 16, 2003 16:57

or what ever way you want to put it and ive read into it

if the depression is not the result of a grievance or actual definable situation then it is atleast 50% chemical afaik no less

the person above is right to caution about dependence on drugs but id hardly single out aware for that above ,well just everybody mostly

me too.

Tue Sep 16, 2003 19:57

the suicide of DAvid that dental student in a twisted sort of way, solved one of my depression causes that bitter winter of 1999/2000 in London.
The funeral parlour paid me enough to buy the boots I needed. Warm feet = happy head on all too often an occasion.
It's the people who say "oh I never get depressed" that we ought worry about.

Pulling the carpet from under depression

by Beggars can be choosers

Tue Sep 16, 2003 23:44

There is a misconception amongst mainly middle class doctors/psychiatrists who treat the depression, that depression just happens for no reason, that it is genetic, that it is due to a weakness in spirit, etc.

Depression maybe due to chemical imbalances in the brain, due to ill health, blood loss and damage to body cells, depression can also be attributed to environment.

If you have been beaten up, raped, sexually, physically and mentally abused as a child, or adult, chances are you will experience periods of severe depression.

Our society likes to pretend that everything is rosy and that all is well in our competitive capitalist hamster wheel. The middle classes and rich professional classes especially like to promote this myth, to the point of denying the impact of such abuse on our mental health and wellbeing, prefering to sweep abuse and scandal under the carpet.

The sad fact of the matter is many adult survivors of abuse, do not feel secure or safe to tell other adults about the abuse they have suffered, for fear of being judged and looked down upon. Survivors had no one to turn as children, and now as adults there is still noone to turn to, for them, due to our second rate NHS system for the poor. For the poor there are only pills to stop the pain and memories and these only work for a short period.

There is only so much booze, smack, speed and e's you can take, to block it out, and more than likely it will block you out first.

Suicide is the ultimate form of self abuse, when you have been shat on, ground down and abused by others so often, eventually you learn to buckle up and abuse yourself first, in the hope that this will stop others abusing you. A learned pattern from an abusive childhood and adulthood takes many years to unlearn.

Drug addiction being another form of self abuse, where you inject to block out the pain, the fear, the self hate brought on by those bad, bad memories.

We need to face up to those bad memories eventually, and realise that as a small defenceless child, we were not to blame in any way for the cruel things that twisted predotory adults perpetrated on us, whether it be, our own family, a teacher, a bully or any other adult in authority over us.

How do you exorcise those memories, you can choose to beat them out of yourself, through drugs, alcohol, self abuse, suicide etc, or you can choose to beat them out of someone else, why not choose to stop self abusing, stand up and start to beat the adult and all other adults who would dare to degrade us or any other defenceless child or adult again.

some figures

by john

Wed Sep 17, 2003 18:33

472 people died on Irish roads in 1997, 467 people in the same year committed suicide, there is a link to here on a national study on suicide by the health boards for those that are interested. there are no easy answers here. help me i soudn like a politicain.....

my depression doens't have a specific reason

Mon Sep 22, 2003 13:28

its not all child abuse and capitalims get real

Everyone is born happy

by little red riding hood

Tue Sep 23, 2003 14:57

People don't just wake one day depressed, capitalists make themselves feel better by blaming the victim/depressed person. Capitalists like to take the easy way out and pretend depression is genetic, or due to some form of mental weakness.

Capitalists like to ignore the effects of factors such as environment etc on a normal happy person. At the root of depression is a feeling of powerlessness, having no control over circumstances and factors which impact upon our physical/mental wellbeing, safety and happiness.

Rich people and capitalists suffer from depression too, but they hide their mental illness very well, taking their anger, frustration, boredom and emptiness of their lives out on those of a lower social economic status than themselves. Rich people get sadistic pleasure out of watching the less well off struggle, and they take great pleasure in punishing the poor for being poor. Rich people like to see the less well off squirm and endure all manner of trial and tribulation. Malnutrition, homelessness, disease, violence, addiction, you name they will make sure we're put through the mangle whilst they sit on the sidelines laughing.

Great Discussion

by sometimes sad

Wed Sep 24, 2003 16:01

This is a great discussion, well done David, and sincere sympathy on the death of your father.

as someone who has been dealing with depression for a while i'd love to add a wee bit more to the discussion:

- society as its structured (neo-liberal capitalist) is alienating and i think does contribute greatly to the numbers of people suffering deppression world wide.

- drugs are not universally bad. i hate to think of peoples sanity and happiness being stripped off them and sold back, but fuck it at the end of the day, if someone can take a pill daily and then live a happy life, i say more power to them. i have taken medication for short periods in the past and yes they saved my life on numerous occassions, so they are not entirely negative.

- love is the greatest cure - as i say to all lefties, its not about screaming your political views at people because this too is alienating. if you care about people do your best to radiate love and hope and that is what depressed people can feed off and maybe feel a little better. if you hate society (which i do) then make positive rebellion against it, don't be greedy, defensive or antagonistic - be loving and caring to everyone you meet and if everyopne did that we'd have our utopia.

peace

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