September Socialist Voice

by Tiocfaidh Armani - Na Fianna Eireann Mon Sep 08, 2003 22:25 info at fiannaeireann dot com Dublin

Can someone from the Socialist Party outline to me their position on the situation in Maghaberry prison and the issue of political status for Republican prisoners?
They refused to sign a petition for it and I wondered what their official position was, or if they have one. Because like all the sad lefty brigades, they never get up in arms about things on their own door-step.

by Tiocfaidh Armani - Na Fianna Eireann Mon Sep 08, 2003 22:28 info at fiannaeireann dot com Dublin

"Israel/Palestine: Assassinations Derail 'Road Map'

AT THE funeral of Ismail Abu Shanab over 100,000 people attended the procession where another Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi commented: "They think that targeting leaders will stop Jihad (holy war). They are mistaken. All of us in Hamas from top to bottom are looking to become like Abu Shanab." -


Also from seeing this, could you also explain if you support groups such as Hamas? And if so why?
And why is the British occupation by arms of Ireland any less of a crime than the Israeli occupation of Palestine?

by durutti Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:23

"...like all the sad lefty brigades, they never get up in arms about things on their own door-step."

First of all I find it hard to see how a person with RSF can call others 'sad lefties'. Pot calling kettle black? it also shows you dont see yourselves as on the left, which is true when you look at your plans for an irish corporate state.

Why don't RSF look at issues on their own doorstep? What about the bin charges? what have you ever done there? If you had the chance you would vote for them like your friends in SF.

by Durutti column - fac ( )6 Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:30

And with the new light
Goes every morning
I walk the same streets
The same every day
Passed by the people
Who go to the center
The lines of their cars
They look the same way
[chorus]
I look for a shelter
I go slipping away
I look for a shelter
And my time of day
To some quiet place
To find colours of joy
I look for a shelter
And this is my time
Dream of a child
A physical presence
How she does touch me
It stays in my soul
No use to deny
Existence of passion
There's no way to play it
Turn away from inside
[chorus]
To some quiet place
To find colours of joy
I look for a shelter
And this is my time
Stood by the statue
Stare out of the square
Watching the dreams that are many
Filled with a life of their own
A crippled young child
The pain of a short life
To bear curses of men
And the turning away
I walk the same streets
The same every day
I walk the same streets
The same every day
[chorus]
To some quiet place
To find colours of joy
I look for a shelter
This is my time

by Interested Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:20

Any articles in it either by or about Dermot Connolly, Finn Geaney, Clem McCloskey or John Throne?

by anniversary Tue Sep 09, 2003 14:57

Lets look at the sacrifice so many republican double agents/brit security force personnel have paid. Many brit intelligence recruits from republican areas, had to set up their own relatives for murder. like in the film Lucien Lacombe, but obviously not so arty, more grubby and nasty, many through their association with brit nazi groups, hardline loyalist groups and brit security forces have had to collude with these people to set up their own relatives for murder by loyalists or the security forces, to prove their loyalty to their new brit master.

by on to you Tue Sep 09, 2003 15:48

Set up their brothers...

by sumdumguy Tue Sep 09, 2003 15:57

Republican prisoners are in jial because they are terrorists, the Sp would obviously not support terrorists and their campaign for a 32 county capitalist republic. You want the british out so you can control the north's corporate life, dont bullshit us with your concern for the pow's thats bullshit, they are killers, fuckin scum.

by set your loyalist yorkshire arse up too Tue Sep 09, 2003 16:39

Murdering Brit security force/FRU/MI5 personnel just as bad, they should be in maghaberry too.

by The Who - Bellboy (I gotta get running now) Tue Sep 09, 2003 16:58

This picture, from Na Fianna's website, is amazingly called "Na Fianna lead the march" - what I want to know is where is the *rest* of the march?

Don't they look soooooo cute in their Mini Me IRA get-ups?

by Patsy Tue Sep 09, 2003 17:21

Yeah, saw them all dressed up in their uniforms rattling tins in pubs in Stoneybatter/NCR area.
Just like the good old days eh?

by The Who Tue Sep 09, 2003 17:26

they actually go into pubs, dressed like THAT?!?!?

People probably think they are the male strippers!!!

by joking aside Tue Sep 09, 2003 17:40

These punters are a worrying bunch of lads.

They are extreme nationalists, hostile to 'lefties', they march around dressed in black uniform, and they have a fetish for 'ireland's glorious past'

They seem somewhat fascist.

by Tiocfaidh Armani - Na Fianna Eireann Tue Sep 09, 2003 18:24 info at fiannaeireann dot com Dublin

If you bother to look at the video, there is around 3000 people at that particular march.
We are very much left wing but there is a difference between that and a "lefty". A lefty is usally a middle class student who goes through his guilt ridden stage for the working class and joins the SWP/SP and has never being in a working class area in his life, never mind grew up in one but proclaims to be the saviour of the working class. They know nothing of these areas and yet come across with the 'holier than thou' tone to us, telling is the answer to our decades old problems.
One typical example of this is the new SWP cumann in south-west Dublin. Hardly any of them grew up in the area and are mostly middle class arseh**es. Their spraying campaign (thats really gonna turn the locals on your side and see your political point of view) includes the slogan, "No war on drugs!". Ah yes, in an area ridden by drugs, their way forward is not to tackle the main problem of that area but instead, their message is to tackle the Bush/Blair armada............maybe thats popular on your campus pricks but in an area as run down as that one, nobody gives a fu*k.
Catch my drift people, leftys are sad little wasters, and I've not seen one of their cumann in my area but all I see is their stupid slogans!

by Tiocfaidh Armani - Na Fianna Eireann Tue Sep 09, 2003 18:30 Dublin

If you go on our board, we only advertise ourselves for organisations we support. One of those is Anti Fascist Action-Ireland. We have people who are members and others who help out and support, so your assumption that we are fascist is so off the mark, its laughable!
Your misguided assumptions of us, is notioned by the fact we are proud of our past. How does that equate to being a fascist? Aren't all Irishmen/women proud of our past or if not all, large portions of it?
Sit and think before you comment maybe in future, before you brand active anti fascists, as fascists....fool.

by Cynic Tue Sep 09, 2003 18:38

I heard Joe Higgins passed his council seat on to his partner. I thought the SP were different.

by Rapper Tandy Tue Sep 09, 2003 19:29

Their call for a Socialist Federation of the British Isles beggars belief.Sometimes I think the average SPer would be happier living in a Capitalist United Kingdom rather than in a Socialist Independent Ireland.

by Cheka Tue Sep 09, 2003 20:06

Its good to see the SP fighting the BNPand other fascists in the six counties but its a pity they are not consistent. Why wont they stand up to the Orange Order? Why do they insist that these racist sectarian bigots have a "right" to march down the Garvaghy Road?

Surely the SP should be saying that no Working Class people should be on Orange parades.The Orange Order is a quasi-fascist organisation which mirrors the Ku Klux Klan. No Socialists should be arguing that these bigots have the right to march anywhere.

by john - sp Tue Sep 09, 2003 20:09

first for tiocfaidh, the socialist party does not support Hamas, the paper quoted what a hamas spokesperson said but we definitely do not support islamic fundamentalism.
On republican violence we have long made our position clear. Republican violence if anything has set back irish unity by alienating practically the entire prodestant population. How did you feel about bloody sunday? well thats excatly how most protestants feel about IRA bombings that went wrong. Also on a purely militaristic point where large scale guerilla action has defeated occupying forces in the past it has been rural based and popularly supported. in truth the IRA campaign was based on at most 10% support soley within the catholic community and was more bombings than guerilla. This has never succeeded anywhere in the world, ever and will not succeed in N.I. The other point is that if the IRA had won they would have done so against 90% of the population so how would they govern. The idea that prodestants would simply give up after the british left is not facing reality. While saying this it's not, all the IRAs fault The IRA wouldn't exist without the injustices that were created with partition. But in the end the provisional IRA campaign failed in it's objectives. The dissidents who have no support don't have any chance and I don't quite see what kind of Ireland the dissidents want.
But all republican prisoners should be treated humanely and released upon a ceasefire. As should all genuine political prisoners in the North. An independent commission made up by local groups and trade unions could decide between political prisoners and criminal elements on both sides.
I don't know what this particular prison campaign is about, is it political status or segregation?

To interested :John Throne writes regularly for an american newspaper called labour militant available on the net. Dermot hasn't left the party and yes you could find an article there.
He's written quite a few in his time. Others don't
know. But feel free to set up your own newspaper and ask them to write for you I'm sure they'd be happy to if you ask nicely.

To cynic, ruth has been a member of the socialist party for about fifteen years. She's been our representative on the Anti Bin Tax campaign from the beginning, She is one of the main organisers on the campaign since the beginning. She lives in mulhuddart which is the consticency of the council seat and was chosen by the party as a whole. And she's also a school stewart for ASTI , I can't think of a better canditate. And she's out there 4 or 5 nights a week doing actual activisim. That is outside away from computers.

To Rapper, we call for a socialist federation of Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. That is an independent scotland and wales with Ireland and England. Not a united Kingdom or British anything. Our actual goal if you read is a socialist federation of europe. We are not nor have ever claimed to be a nationalist party. And I would love to see unity between british and irish workers and catholic and prodestant workers and just about everybody else.

To tiocfaidh again: The majority of SP support comes from working class districts of Blanchardstown and Swords. Our main support base is in places like whitestown, mullhuddart and hartstown where Joe is from and where we get our highest vote. We are involved in every working class campaign in Fingal. We are also deeply involved within the trade unions, also in the north. Our record on this speaks for itself. We haven't done any form of spray painting against anti drugs activists, our mebers have been involved in campaigns against anti social behaviour (without baseball bats I must add). And in anti drugs campaigns. We have also, though supported clinics to be set up for addicts in all areas just for local addicts. Its a complicated question and kicking the shit out of drug users isn't the answer. The answer lies in solving the social problems increasing in the city and county.

by john - sp Tue Sep 09, 2003 20:16

yes the orange order is a body set up to divide workers and is racist and yes we don't believe working class people should have anything to do with them. But we also recognise that many prodestants see attacks on the orange order as attacks on their culture. And we also recognise their is also 3,000 or so marches a year. Should they all be banned? We have always said that if the order is not willing to talk to residents the march should not go ahead. But we believe that where talks do go on agreement can be reached. And most importantly the marches are a sympton of the troubles not a cause. Patricks day parades in the south were once bigoted racist catholic ant prod affairs but not any more.

by john - sp Tue Sep 09, 2003 20:18

tomorrow the fingal county council is refusing to collect untagged bins. Anti bin charge campaigners will be trying to slow down and stop the bin trucks. If you see them come out and help. United action can defeat the charges.

thats it for me today folks bye.

by Rapper Tue Sep 09, 2003 20:20

Why would free nations want to go back under the Imperial Yoke? In a Socialist Europe, why there be a need for for your British Federation? It makes no sense.

Would you call for a Socialist Federation of Russia and Lithuania? A socialist federation of France and Algeria?

by Cynic Tue Sep 09, 2003 20:24

Are you seriously suggesting that Ruth was the only suitable person in the constituency? Sounds like nepotism to me.

You are a tosser comparing St Patricks day parades to the Orangies. Provide evidence about St Pats being anti-prod.

by john - sp Tue Sep 09, 2003 20:50

no i never for on minute said she was the only suitable person. I said she was the best person for the job. Tell me someone you think would be better, I'm from the area know all the members here and I don't know of anyone. And I'll remind you we're not a party of thousands with hundreds queing up to be candidates.

In a socialist europe there wouldn't be a British federation. As I said the idea is for irish, english welsh and scottish federation until we get a european federation. Obviously we look at countries closest first. Probably we could go straight to a european federation which I think would be better.

by Tiocfaidh Armani - Na Fianna Eireann Tue Sep 09, 2003 21:37 info at fiannaeireann dot com Dublin

"And in anti drugs campaigns. We have also, though supported clinics to be set up for addicts in all areas just for local addicts. Its a complicated question and kicking the shit out of drug users isn't the answer. The answer lies in solving the social problems increasing in the city and county."- I never said that was the answer, although in some cases, when the community calls for it, it does need to be done, although I know you may be a little too liberal to accept that reality.
Would you believe in the legalisation of some "hard" drugs, to take the mystic off it for teenagers and other aspiring "junkies", and to take the profits from the real scum, the people who send out their misguided dealers, to rake in their profits from the working class.

by john - sp Tue Sep 09, 2003 22:10

not sure of all the ins and outs of it. But definitely I believe all drugs should be decriminalised and made available by the state. It would cost a fraction of the price to supply hard drug users instead of them robbing for it.

On violence, the problem is who decides who gets beaten up? Who controls the vigilantes? Its one thing a community democratically (if its actualy done democratically,) to evict a teneant. But quite a different things to break his or her legs. Do you have a public meeting first? Don't think so, therefore your down to a vigilante gang. And we cry blue murder when the cops beat up people. Its the same for vigilantes.

I remeber a few years ago a low level dealing junkie with aids being beaten to death. Didn't solve any problems though. even in the short term.

by Punishment beating Wed Sep 10, 2003 00:38

Always go into a fight empty handed, except of course if you are a lady fighting a big bloke, then of course you need a snooker cue or hammer. If you are a lady fighting a big group of fellas, then again you need to have a hammer, a bottle or snooker cue handy.

If you are fella fighting another unarmed fella and you pull out a hatchett, well, just look what happens.

by Interested Wed Sep 10, 2003 15:39

I have also heard that Lyn Walsh in Britain has joined the ranks of the disappeared as well, having announced that the CWI was bureaucratic centralist and declared a faction. I can't find any recent material from him on the CWI website. This is all getting very careless of the SP - their top people keep vanishing without a word, having discovered the costs of dissent.

by Robert Nairacs Thighbone Wed Sep 10, 2003 15:47

This the reality of the siege of the Holycross School. The SP called it a "sectarian turf war" and refused to take sides. As far as they were concerned there was no difference between the parents and the loyalists who were attacking them.


Legal action over school policing


Security forces escorted the children to school every day
Sectarian attacks and abuse directed at little girls during a dispute at a north Belfast primary school has been compared to the treatment of American blacks in Alabama in the 1960s.

The comparison was made by a governor at Holy Cross Primary School in Ardoyne at the opening of a judicial review in the High Court in Belfast on Wednesday.

The mother of a child at the school is challenging the alleged failure of the secretary of state and the chief constable to provide effective protection to parents and children between June and November 2001.


A three-month protest that year by loyalist residents at the Ardoyne interface saw pupils of Holy Cross being escorted to and from school by the security forces on a daily basis.

The dispute centred on alleged attacks on Glenbryn homes by the larger nationalist community in Ardoyne.

It ended after local Protestant residents were promised social improvements and new security measures.


The woman bringing the legal action is being referred to as "E" because she fears her life would be in danger if her name was revealed.

'Pitiful art work'

The woman's lawyer, Seamus Treacy, QC, said the authorities had failed to prevent unlawful and violent protests orchestrated by loyalist paramilitaries.

"This went on not for one day or one week but over a period of months," said Mr Treacy.

"The most basic human rights of the children were trampled upon with devastating and long-lasting consequences.

"The evidence is overwhelming that the authorities failed in their duty to secure fundamental rights to the parents and their children."

Mr Treacy said this was borne out in affidavits from impeccable sources including headmasters and headmistresses, priests, school governors, human rights commissioners, doctors and parents "even in the pitiful art work of the children themselves".

The lawyer referred to an affidavit sworn by Terry Lavery, headmaster of Holy Cross Boys school, who said he he worked in five schools in Belfast and had witnessed many disturbances, including pupils being killed.

But he said he had never experienced anything like the happenings at Holy Cross.

"It was more akin to the treatment of American blacks in Alabama in the sixties," the affidavit said.

Mr Treacy said: "Even today the authorities still persist in refusing to acknowledge their breach of duty."

by pat c Wed Sep 10, 2003 16:42

Saying that Dermot Connolly is still in the SP does not tell the full story. He was General Secretary, he was removed from that position. The SP have never explained the reason for his fall from grace.

by Hal Silke Wed Sep 10, 2003 18:45

Some interesting food for thought. But in the article on New Labour where you go on to sing the praises of the SP in England & Wales there is no mention of the fact that membership has dropped from a high of 8,000 in 1987 to the present less than 400.

Also, John said the federation woul be of independent nations. so why the sentence:
"The SP in Britain will continue its independent work, including standing in elections, and will also continue to argue, and to fight, for the creation of a new mass workers party."
No mention of independent Scotland or wales, just good old Britain.

Still some good stuff about fighting the Bin Tax.

by george - none Thu Sep 11, 2003 01:57

just got back from the protests thanks to all in the sp it was excellent. NO BIN TAX

by pat c Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:18

Thanks to SF, SWP, WCA, ISN, the independents and the 2 SP members there.

by sp member (personal capacity) Thu Sep 11, 2003 23:46

Well done EVERYONE who has stood united in the face of this attack by the bosses.

by Dermot - sy Sun Sep 14, 2003 15:04

Pat first of all Dermot Connolly was not "removed" he was not "appointed" either. He was ELECTED, and at the last national confernce he didn't go for the position again. He had his reasons and Pat you know him personally, did it ever occur to you to ask him why? No of course not that would be just a little too obvious.

But there is a huge point to all this, all the time people like yourself and other computer whizzkids attack and attack us for having an over centralised leadership with even some particular computer "activists" going as far as calling us a cult.

Then when we change a leader its, oh poor ex leader how terrible this evil party is. So which is it? We listen to leaders too much or treat them badly, can't have it both ways.

And if dermot was still the general secretary you would be attacking him and saying we are all afraid of him, your double standards are nonsense.

And I can't help but notice in your last comment pat that you are quite unhappy that the socialist parties tactics and leadership in the bin tax campaign are working. I think you would prefer the campaign to loose rather than the SP get any good press on indymedia over it.

This is what the dictionary term of sectarianism is, holding back the movement as a whole so your group can win more support, or other another group cannot win support.

by bill - sp england and wales Sun Sep 14, 2003 15:31

First of all membership fully paid up subs at the last conference was about 1,500. How you may have got it confused was about 400 delegates came to the conference.

But even still the fall from 8,000 to 1,500 is still bad. So what were the reasons, first there was a number of splits after the collapse of the USSR. This may be a suprise to youger people but when the USSR collapsed the left fell to pieces all over western europe and the world. There is not on party that did not loose alot of support and members. Our political ideas about this collapse were proved wrong and we paid for it.

The split with Ted Grant was infact about changing these mistaken prespectives.

Another reason was the general mood of the nineties, leftism as a general rule was out of fashion it wasn't really until Seattle until leftism (in the west) came back. Of course comrades in Nigeria and Brazil have another story.

Another reason is that before we were organised within the Labour Party we were a faction rather than a party. And alot of the 8,000 were labour party members first. Where organising an independent political party is alot more difficult as those who are are involved in active political work know.

Also we have the UK system, if we had the Irish system we would have a very good chance of converting our 3 council seats in coventry into a westminister seat. But the UK system is first past the post. When you win an MP or two people see you as a serious group rather than a student outfit. When we had 8,000 members we had 3 MPS.

One other point which is to be expected by all left wing activists is we were attacked by the media. In liverpool where we led the council in a mass struggle against thatcher we were also accused and investigated by the police for corrruption, all found innocent but papers don't report that. We had a journalist infriltrator who wanted a SHOCKER and two or 3 books. we had tabloid headlines saying we were calling for civil war etc, in fact the indymedia trolls here are just kids in comparison. Then I imagine in a few years after they've left college they could get jobs in the Irish Independent!

On the positive side we are still the only hardleft group to win campaigns and seats even in local government. And we are rooted in the working class and trade unions rather than just another student outfit.

The Socialist party has never claimed to be THE PARTY or that it will become the next party of the working class. We have always said we will be one current within that party which we are campaigning for. And that is a mass party of the working class rather than simply a collection of the existing left groups. In scotland although we have our differences we have seen the SSP grow into a small mass workers party, which all currents take part in. They have gone on to win a number of seats. The difference between them and the SA in england and the SA in Wales is that the SSP have been involved in community activism for years. Where the SA only turn up at election time and are gone again. Much worse even compared to Labour. In scotland militant as in england and wales was involved in hundreds of campaigns The poll tax being the most famous. The SSP though grew from one or two council seats ten years ago as well.

The bin campaign in Ireland is a similar thing too and I would say that this will lead to Ireland being the next "scotland" with a number of socialists being elected to parliment.

by pat c Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:17

"And I can't help but notice in your last comment pat that you are quite unhappy that the socialist parties tactics and leadership in the bin tax campaign are working. I think you would prefer the campaign to loose rather than the SP get any good press on indymedia over it."

I have defended the SP from sectarian attacks on other threads regarding the bin tax. I will not however let a situation arise cwhere the SP are claiming all credit for what is happening in the campaign. Any of the SF, ISN, WCA, SWP and independents present at the Collins Ave Depot picket will confirm to you that there were 2 SP members present.

You are damaging the campaign if you try to claim that it is led by the SP.

As for Dermot Connolly, I consider it odd that a General Secretary of a party should leave that position without comment from the party itself. I was commenting on the fact that the SP had chosen to ignore or sidestep the previous comments regarding this.

by pat c Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:47

I believe there should be a united campaign against the bin tax. No organisation should claim undue credir and no one should use threads about the campaign to launch sectarian attacks. I have also defended the SWP from attack. Below you will find comments by me. Does Dermot still think I am sectarian towards the SP in this campaign?


http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61020&results_offset=60
Manky Is A Troll
by pat c Thursday, Sep 11 2003, 9:12am
I have just come from the Collins Ave Depot, 30 people were on the picket. SF, SWP, WCA, ISN, independents and SP members were there.

This is a united campaign. No one group should try and take credit for whats being acheived.

It is likely that DCC will start to implement their no collection policy next Monday. After the blockade ended at 8 am, activists present agreed that on Mondat there would be both a picket on the depot and action in the estates to block trucks that were not collecting all bins.

We Need A United Campaign
by pat c Thursday, Sep 11 2003, 3:34pm
If what you say is true then please put your complaints in writing, bring them to a member of SF who is active in the campaign and get them to raise the matter at central campaign level.

Better still come along to the next activists meeting and raise the points yourself.

I have many criticisms of the SP but I am no going to use those differences to create disharmony in this campaign.

You may be genuine, you may be a troll. We have no way of knowing.

by TROTWATCH Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:55

Good old Bill stick to your story, you are the only one who believes it. Its well known that the SP in England and Wales have less than 400 members. It has been the accepted figure here for about a year, this is the first time any of you clowns have tried to challenge it. Left it a bit late though.

Even SP members here have talked about how odd it was that the Irish party was bigger than you. Poor Bill.

Cheer up. Maybe you could give us an update on Lyn Walsh and the other dissidents. Has Lyn been sacked, is there a formal faction?

by Bin Overladen Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:44

I was at the activist meeting in the Teachers Club last night. Funnily enough Dermot Connolly was on the side of the SWP opposing the SP line.

Maybe young Dermot should ask elder Dermot whats going on. After all, they are in the same party. For the time being anyway.

by Archivist Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:45

There is a depressing tendency across the far left to hopelessly exaggerate things like how many members they have, how many people attend party events (such as demonstrations, or indeed how many votes they are likely to get at elections. I seem to recall that the SP in England seriously thought Lesley Mahmood was going to win the Walton bye-election in the early 90s, against Peter Kilfoyle. In the event, she got about 2500 votes. By way of contemporary illustration, it appears that the SP in Northern Ireland has about 30 members. And yet I recall some CWI members recently claiming on Indymedia that their influence was greater than ever - despite the catastrophic collapse in their numbers, the loss of long time members, the splits, the expulsions, the defections (not to mention the Ukraine incident). What is the point of lying about all this? Who gains?

I see it like this. Such distortions do not fool outside observers, who have eyes, who can count, and some of whom may have access to an abacus. The only point I can see is self deception. More precisely, it is an attempt to deceive new and more gullible people either on the organsiation's periphery or fresh to its ranks. The hope seems to be that by the time they see the real state of affairs they will be too deeply enmeshed to care or review their level of commitment.

The truth is that false accounting is indicative of a sick organisational culture, and is one part of the reason for the CWI and SP's continued erosion and loss of support (whatever they do against bin taxes).

by Anonymous Carper Tue Sep 16, 2003 16:09

This is fucking disgusting.

Anyone who cares about the bin tax struggle should shut the fuck up and show some solidarity with the people in Fingal and elsewhere who are defying government, council and courts and mounting the blockades.

I'm sure Indymedia can go back to its usual status as a place where internet cranks can anonymously carp about other activists when the struggle is over. Till then just keep your bitching to yourself.

by Archivist Tue Sep 16, 2003 16:38

Woah, there, above contributor. This particular thread began with an announcement of a forthcoming SP newspaper. It was not about the bin tax as such - other threads are devoted to that. I don;t see how responding to an SP announcement of an imminent publication with some questions about their general policy and membership figures impacts on what activists in Dublin do, or undermines it in any way. Keep your shirt on.

by indie - pendant Thu Sep 18, 2003 12:46

the sp in england have council seats, they have in the past while militant won Mps and seats in scotland. In ireland they have won seats, I don't think it was too far fetched for them to believe they were in with a chance again. Whatever you say about them they are still the only left group to have gotten any bit of a vote outside the usual university student unions.
I wouldn't join them but i'd definitely vote for them they are the only ones (apart from sinn fein) remotely in touch with the working class. Everyone else is buried in the usual studnt leftie crap.

by working class - the blanch Thu Sep 18, 2003 13:00

I'm not in the sp nor do I particularly like them or their communist structure although I support the bin tax campaign. But the critics of the sp need to face reality. Come out to any working class community in Dublin West or Dublin North, ask any one person about Clare Daly or Joe Higgins. Or better yet ask about the socialist party itself. See how many people have heard of the candidates or party (quite a lot, even more now, especially when cxompared to the rest of the hard left) and find out how many people support the party. Yes its true in some of the middle class areas in castleknock joe Higgins will have lost votes after this campaign. But again I challenge you ask around any working class part of north or west dublin and see if the socialist party has lost support. Go to any working class activist meeting about any issue and ask about the party and see what people say. Right now they seem to be running on a par with Sinn Fein out here, (blanch) You may be winning the battle on indymedia but if you really want to challenge the partys growth and influence you'll have to go out to the working class districts yourself. The only way you will do this is by pushing Sinn Fein as they are the only real obstacle to Sps growth. The greens are finished after this and if you just attack joe the way its done on indymedia you'll be laughed at. So it's the shinners or the socialists, or possibly labour. Anyway critics be warned far from losing support our trotskist friends are winning friends and influence beyond the average lefties wet dreams.