Basque Book - Dublin Launch

by Benny B Fri Aug 22, 2003 19:51

Irish and Basque Links politicaly go back many years and its great to see that Sinn Fein still support the ongoing struggle for national liberation in the Basque Country.

by Carlos Diaz Fri Aug 22, 2003 20:00

ETA prisioners are not political prisioners.


More than 300 people killed in terrorist attacks, who is going to the jail for that so? just political prisioners?

Stop the lies, please. And lets going to work through a non-violent Basque country.

Those who, like George Bush, use the violence to get what they want, does not deserve to be listened...

So please, shut up...

by iosaf Fri Aug 22, 2003 20:09

Great to see the Dublin launch of this book!

In the two week period since it was launched in Belfast, [c/f http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60731] the "self-determination Yes! apartheid No!" theme has seen one march banned.
Readers will remember the last march ended in the controversial and illegal burning of the Spanish flag.

Breaking News:
Today there has been a march under the same banner in Euskal Herria in Bilbao.

read the report minute by minute account in english at:
http://www.lahaine.org/b2/articulo.php?p=1137&more=1&c=1

by Eoin O'Broin - Sinn Féin Fri Aug 22, 2003 20:16 eoinobroin at hotmail dot com

Its remarkable that someone who hasent even seen or read a book can state that it is 'lies' and tell the author to 'shut up'. What about freedom of speech? What about real and meaningful debate? Unfortunately there are democratic values which neither the left nor the right in Spanish politics seem willing to offer to Basque nationalists. Yes ETA is involved in an armed campaign, but does that mean that we dont have the right to discuss other issues such as state violence, torture of detainees by the police or denial of human and civil rights by the Spanish government and judicial system? I suggest that you come to the book launch, buy the book, read it and then tell me what you think. I am happy to debate with you or anyone else in public through Indymedia. Demanding people to 'shut up' is hardly a sensible response to a political situation which desperately needs more dialogue.

by iosaf Fri Aug 22, 2003 20:26

The comments on the last article here in indymedia ireland were fair and representative. Links between Ireland and the Basque are as strong as ever, and as such link those who seek a lasting and peaceful settlement. To support self determination for the Basque people is not to support ETA. The social support for ETA prisoners in the Basque country is stronger now, than at any stage in the last 25 years, and judging by posters/stickers/house decorations, such support rivals that which was enjoyed by Saoirse and Irish Political prisoner organisations throughout the troubles.

Madrid under the present adminstration shows no sign of wanting to talk to the Basques be they teh moderate and rightwing nationalists who are in power in the region whose leader's "lehandakari = taoiseach" proposals for increased autonomy have been rejected as "threatening the integrity of Spain".
It is thus to Irish eyes at least not surprising that the conflict continues. Though it might be noted there have been neither arrests of ETA brigade members or deaths due to ETA bombs in the last two weeks.

ON this day when irish readers consider the archives of their common history with the UK, highlighted in another article on today's newswire, I think it perhaps appropriate to consider an article which appeared in yesterday's Barcelona newswire:
http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display/51132/index.php
entitled "Those who forget History......."
= "Quien Olvida La Historia......."

This article treated upon a speech given 26th September 1936 by the proctor of Salamanca university condemning alledged republican atrocities that were thought to pre-herald the end of the Civil War. During the speech a hecklar interrupted shouting:
""¡Cataluña y el País Vasco, el País Vasco y Cataluña, son dos cánceres en el cuerpo de la nación! ¡El fascismo, remedio de España, viene a exterminarlos, cortando en la carne viva"
=
"Catalonia and the Basque, the Basque and Catalonia are two cancers in the body of the nation! Fascism, Spain's remedy comes to exterminate them, cutting the living flesh".

It is a matter of U.N. record, that both Ireland and Spain are states which hold "disappeared". Graves of those who never stood trial, who were executed without mercy. It is a matter of fact that the majority of yet to be exhumed graves in Spain of those republicans systematically murdered by fascists at the wage of 35 pesetas each, are in the Basque and Catalan regions".

All conflicts trace long long and bloody history.

I hope people in Ireland will read this book, and do their best to understand their role in self determination and peace not only in their own country but in other similarly small nations with equally bloody pasts. But states do change and nations too, and the same university of Salamanca which saw such a speech be made, became in '99 the first university to publish a critical assesment of Reclaim the Streets! and include study of such groups in it's curriculum.

by . Fri Aug 22, 2003 21:06

This book launch comes to you from Coke

by Seáinín Fri Aug 22, 2003 22:21

The thing is that ETA have about as much support as our own scumbags, RIRA/CIRA.

Forget about it, the people of the Basque country don't want these scumbags speaking for them.

by Carlos Diaz Sat Aug 23, 2003 15:17

I believe in the debate Eoin, and freedom of speech...

It bothers me a lot that somebody can believe the things that you say and just listen to you, when there is another truth behind the words "state terrorism" to support "Basque terrorism".

You can have a "real and meaningful debate" when the guns are down and no killing happens. It seems a bit odd for me that you went to Dublin with me to that huge PEACE demostration, and then you support the violent actions of the ETA group... VIolence is not the answer... even to the state terrorism.

Yes, you have the right to discuss other issues such as state violence, torture of detainees by the police or denial of human and civil rights by the Spanish government and judicial system, but don't forget to say "the other side", and they are not the goodies (neither the state, but much less them).


You say that "Demanding people to 'shut up' is hardly a sensible response to a political situation which desperately needs more dialogue." and I agree with you in that it is REALLY important a DEBATE, but without bombs in Alicante or Santander, or Barcelona, etc.. Debate is what it is needed, as the Catalans are having in these days.

All the best with your book... I am sorry for the people that just listen to your side. I listened to both sides and I took my point of view.

by Eoin O'Broin - Sinn Féin Sat Aug 23, 2003 16:13 eoinobroin at hotmail dot com

Thanks for your reply Carlos, although I still think some of your points are confused and contradictory. My book does not advocate or support ETA. I dont think that if you read the book you will agree with my analysis. However, the position I put forward is that the conflict in the Basque Country is based on the denial of Basque people rights to self determination. It is my view that the violence, both state and anti-state, is a consequence of this. Thus if we want to see an end to the conflict we must see a full acknolodgement of these rights. I think that a process similar to that in Ireland could be developed in the Basque Country. The 1998 ETA ceasefire and Lizarra-Garazi declaration offered such a possibility. What did the French and Spanish governments do? They rejected peace and dialogue and squandered the first real chance of conflict resolution for almost a decade.

I dont, nor have I ever supported or justified the taking of civilian lives in any conflict. But conflict resolution is not about saying 'end the violence and then well talk'. Conflict resolution is about acknolodging that conflicts have causes and those causes need to be resolved in the context of a process of dialogue between the main protagonists. This can only work if all side are at the table as equals, and are allowed to put all things on the table. Making preconditions on peoples participation is not a way forward. Nor is it helpfull when political positions or organisations are banned, censored or criminalised.

Those of us interested in peace and human rights need to start from these simple points. From my limited vantage point I am firmly of the conviction tha Basque nationalism, both radical and conservative is ready for these challenges. However, I dont believe that either the two main political parties in Spain or indeed much of the Spanish public are ready for these challenges. The narrow, negative and knee jerk tone of your comments just confirm this last point.

I am a Sinn Féin councillor from North Belfast. For the last 2 years the UDA has waged a campaign of violence against the community I represent. They have thrown 400 pipebombs in my own constitucency alone, from 2001 - 2002. They have killed five people. I and my Sinn Féin colleagues in the City Hall have several death threats against us from the UDA. If I had the chance today to talk to the UDA I would. If I had the opportunity to engage with them on whatever terms at whatever time, I would. Because the only way to end their campaign of violence is through political engagement. Likewise with the Sinn Féin's engagement with the British government over the past 10 years.

How hard do you think it is for the families of those killed by GAL to contemplate dialogue with the Spanish state? Or what about the family of Josu Zabala, killed by the spanish police in 1997? Do you think dialogue is easy for them?

All conflicts have more than one side, and all sides have blood on their hands. The solution is dialogue not criminalisation, engagement not preconditions, and democracy not the anti-democratic policies of Aznar.

As always I am happy to continue this discussion.

by iosaf Sat Aug 23, 2003 21:57

the so called Lizarra-Garazi declaration led to a ETA ceasefire in the last five years, and was brokered in part by Argentine Nobel Peace Laureate Adolfo Perez Esquivol.
He most recently moved to condemn both the intransigency of Aznar and ETA to approach a workable peace process. His statements made in the run-up to Iraq war, were made against the increased public awareness of the letters exchanged between Baltazar Garzón (judge prosecutor of Spain) and Sub Comandant Marcos of the EZLN.
Many voices and groups accross the hispano-phone world at least realise the difficulties and tragedy which is the Madrid-Basque "problem". No one in Ireland at least may offer a "failsafe" solution, but they _can_ and _should_ relate the history of that "problem" to their own.

by Damo Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:51

The Basque nationalist Left demand only two things for the Basque Country, Independence and Socialism.
Many different organisations in the Basque Country have this goal. Whatever you think of ETA i find it hard to believe that supposedly 'left wing' people support the actions of the Spanish Government.

Basque Language organisations have been closed down. Their members imprisoned.
Basque Newspapers have been shut down and their staff imprisoned.
Basque Youth Groups have been shut down and their members imprisoned.
Basque Political Parties have been shut down and their members imprisoned.

Also the right to protest for the above goals has been made illegal and yet according to some of the posts on this site this is ok. What if this happened to anarchists, Trots or Stalinists. All the same idiots who now support the Spanish Government would be outraged. The basic lesson is that some people don't support those struggling for Independence and Socialism. They'd rather support the actions of a reactionary and radical right wing Government of former Fascists who also supported Bush's war on innocent Iraqi's

by iosaf Sun Aug 24, 2003 15:46

It is the most expensive region of the Spanish state to live in. (The other is Catalonia).
It's beaches are polluted by The Prestige.
It contains a high percentage of the heavy industry and natural resources of the Spanish State (the rest of the industry is concentrated in Catalonia). In fact till the last twenty years over 70% of the wealth created in the Spanish state and not deriving from foreign holdings or benefit from financial transactions relating to foreign holdings (i.e. South America) was made in either the Basque or Catalan regions.
It is only as a result of Spain joining the EEC/EU that Madrid became a major production centre.
The Basque land is isolated not only culturally but by infrastructure. Franco deliberately discouraged the building of proper rail routes and roads to both the Basque lands and Catalonia.

why?
Because he hated them. It is not an accident that the first dive bombing of civilians was done by the NAZI condor division at Guernica a Basque town, nor was it an accident that the first blanket bombing of a city was Barcelona.

And his successors hate them still.

When I first came to live in the "spanish state" I came within 400 metres of an ETA attributed car bomb. I don't as some very ignorant (willfully so) people in Ireland support the bombings or killing. When I lived in London I came within 20 metres of a defused IRA bomb. When I lived in Dublin my father drove his car with me in the back seat 200 metres away from a British Intelligence planted bomb on Talbot street.
= maybe I'm lucky.
The ignorance of the Basque problem and also of Catalonia in Ireland really stands in the way of the Irish ever developing a _real_ perception of where they stand in Europe. There are only 5 million in Ireland. There are only 5 million in the Basque. There are 8 million in Catalonia. What is happening now in the Basque in the last year _never_ happened in Ireland.
Ireland may have suffered war, shoot to kill, false imprisonment, criminalisation of language and culture, internment, partition, manipulation by americans, economic war, historical revisionism, suspension of rights, armed struggle that spawned terrorism and so too has the Basque.
but the Basque in the last year has entered somewhere else, somewhere Ireland didn't go.
Why?
I think if anyone can answer that, they can help make Ireland a better place for all it's people and perhaps help the Basques as well. And I think Ireland owes that interest. If we had been the victim of a spanish speaking culture I doubt our "story" would have figured so much in the industry of popular culture.
Maybe many Irish feel too uncomfortable pondering the similarities.

by spanner Mon Aug 25, 2003 02:38

looks like a great book which i'll definitlly read!!!
however:::


The struggle in the Basque country is extreme but complex. The Basque country is the industrial and financial hub of Spain, not the most important but historically indespensible, hence the denial of the Basques right to self determination.


The struggle is still violent because of this denial. Resolution of the struggle if it follows the example set by Sinn Fein will lead to the radical basque nationalist movement being accomadated by the capitalist system. Like within 10 years Ireland will be a united at best social democratic (but not likely) state with in the EU. Exactly not something worth fighting for or that Bobby Sands would of been proud of. Euskadi could end up as a wealthy industrial and financial state or a state socilaist anachronism.

However all is not lost.

The will to riot is strong in falls road as it is in hernani.
The youth are naturally anarchic and want a differnt world without a state and bosses and forty hours a week and supermarkets and political paties.

Its what goes through head of radical when they do kali baroka or do in the ruc...

remember when there would be a big riot in belfast and the sinn fein councillers would fob off the tv repoters saying they couldnt control the riot......they really couldntup the republic gora euskadi against state and capital

by Peter Mon Aug 25, 2003 18:08

Pacifist? yea right!!
Pacifism is not accepting the Roman Pax (that is the peace imposed by the conquerors) but action to change an status quo that is unjust. So many so call pacifist are in reality people happy whith the situation that they live, and only use the word Peace as a weapon to mantain the situation as it is. Very good you went to the demostration on May 1, but how many demostrations have you been at to protest against the fascist policies of the Spanish State in the las 20 years, where is your campaing to ask for a real transition to democracy in Spain after Franco, can you tell me when was the last time you wen on line to protest for the impossition of a stupid king (the killer of his brother) by Franco as head of the Spanish State, etc
Your White Knite dress is not as white as you maight think.

by Carlos Diaz Tue Aug 26, 2003 00:19

As we both think that it is necessary to speak and to have a debate, and none of us support or advocate ETA, there is no more arguing between us.

by Carlos Diaz Tue Aug 26, 2003 00:41

You said "Pacifism is not accepting the Roman Pax (that is the peace imposed by the conquerors) but action to change an status quo that is unjust. So many so call pacifist are in reality people happy whith the situation that they live, and only use the word Peace as a weapon to mantain the situation as it is."

This is exactly what George Bush would say... I don't believe in him, I don't believe in you.

You also say "real transition to democracy in Spain after Franco, can you tell me when was the last time you wen on line to protest for the impossition of a stupid king (the killer of his brother) by Franco as head of the Spanish State, etc"


We could speak about the way that the transicion was made, and we could argue about it. I think the transition was conflictive, but it led to a democracy... I believe in democracy, with all its fails, until somebody convince me it is wrong...

One more thing, it is really easy speak about "fascism" and "fascists" for you, when the real "fascist" arise when a "non democratically elected person" rules the destiny of others, and as far as I know, the descendants-of-Franco ruling today were elected, much to my regret.

The king, you don't like it... it's ok with me, I don't like Madonna either... you should know that the king of Spain does not rule the destiny of the Spanish people.

by Eoin O'Broin - Sinn Féin Tue Aug 26, 2003 08:57 eoinobroin at hotmail dot com

Thanks for your reply Carlos, but Im afriad it dosent wash. Avoiding the points raised dosent count as a discussion. You started off rejecting dialogue, accusing me of lieing and telling me to 'shut up'. Now you are saying 'we agree'? A little confused dont you think. Its not about support or not for ETA. Your are missing the core problem. It is about recognising that there is somthing deeply wrong with the relationship between the Spanish state and the Basque people. It is a pity that you have avoided this discussion. You seemed happier to accuse than to discuss. You also seem to like comparisons with George Bush, so heres one for you. A policy of rejeting democracy, useing violence, banning, censoring, imprisoning, etc. This is what is happening in Spain, and with the effective support of much of the Spanish left. Its time for people to come out from under the convenient cover of 'rejecting ETA' and confront the violence and hypocracy of their own society. A good place to start would be to support the repatriation of Basque political prisoners to jails close to their families. After all it is a right enshrined in the Spanish constitution itself. And it dosent involve support of the actions of ETA, but of a basic principle that people imprisoned have the right to serve their sentences close to their families. Unfortunately this is a demand rejected by much of the Spanish left. I am interested to hear your response.

by Carlos Diaz Tue Aug 26, 2003 21:29

If you want to hear my opinion, I believe that it is good for the prisoners to live near their families. I always have tought in this way, is not new, anyway.

I told you were lying cause you said that the "ETA prisoners" were political prisoners, and this is incorrect, and therefore a "lie", it is incorrect because some of them are there for murdering, for killing or for helping others to do it. That is not a political move for me.

Anyway, this debate is fruitless for me I had it for many years and I have made up my mind a long time ago.. and you are not gonna change your mind about the immediate (today) dissolution of the ETA group (core issue), are you?

by Eoin O'Broin - Sinn Féin Tue Aug 26, 2003 23:30 eoinobroin at hotmail dot com

Thanks for the reply and I am heartened to hear that you support the issue of prisoners in jails close to their families.

On the question of political prisoners, the issue is not whether or not it is a 'lie'. It is a question of judgement and opinion. In my opinion anyone why is jailed for actions which are politically motivated is a political prisoner. It is not a question of whether one agree swith them or not. If you do not think that ETA prisoners are political, then what are they? What motivates them? More importantly why are there 700 political prisoners?

You talked about 'support' for violence, but what does this mean. For example, under recent legislation passed through the Spanish parliament, organising a welcome home celebration for a released ETA prisoner can be construed as supporting 'terrorism' and result in arrest and possibly conviction? Is that included in your definition of 'support'? hat about organising campaigns highlighting the human righst abuses of prisoners, under the same legislation that can be construed as supporting 'terrorism'. What about the closure of Egin, Ardi Beltza and Egunkarria? What about the banning and suspensions of Herri Batasuna, Batasuna, Jarrai, Haika, Segi, Gestoras pro Amnistia, etc etc? What about the national executives of these organisations, currently in jail or awaiting trial, are these 'supporters'? Are these people 'political'? Do they deserve to be in jail?

I get the impression from reading your replys that you want to avoid the difficult questions.

I am also interested in how you seem to think that these issues are so black and white, and yet reading between the lines of your replys (they are very short so I must read between the lines) I wonder where you stand on these things. Because if you support these things then in my opinion you are supporting a context which leads to conflit and violence. Conflict exists for reasons, and ending it requires us to examine these conditions and change them. Other wise either by our complicity or silence the status quo will remain and conflict will continue?

Finally, debate is never fruitless. Your tone in our exchanges has been accusing and narrow, that is a pity, but never close yourself off to rethinking your positions (this applies to us all) There are always other ways of looking at things, new arguments or reconsidered positions. These issues are too important to simply say, I have decided what I think and thats that. I have my opinions, I think they are well reasoned but I may be wrong, in general or detail, and so must remain open to the possibility. It is also a mistake to assume that because someone takes a different view it is because they have not considered 'all sides' as you suggested you had done. Its always easier to believe that those whom we disagree with strongly are decieved or misinformed, however this is usually not the case.

And so, while you may believe that the dissolution of ETA is the 'core issue', and that the 700 people in jails in Spain and France are not political, the conflict continues. So what is to be done? That is the really important question...

by KIS- Keep It Simple Wed Aug 27, 2003 13:40

Pacifism is not being against violence but working towards the solutions that provoques them.
Juan Carlos I is the head of state in Spain (and the killer of his brother), that is a fact.
Facism does not mean "non democratically elected person" rules the destiny of others" as the examples of well known fascist demonstrates, Hitler or Fraga/Aznar demostrate.
Political prisoners, you may not agree with the term but the Spanish authorities do, as it is clear by the "special treatment" they "enjoy"
Democracy, or peoples power is not simply having the right to go to vote. if the options are not in the ballot box, when was I ask to vote for the monarchy vs republic, or to know if I wanted to be consider an Spanish citizen, or if I wanted the Franco's Army/Police to be the guardians of my safety...

by iosaf Wed Aug 27, 2003 20:09

It is now one year since HB and it's prisoner support organisations were banned. Their bank accounts frozen, and judicial process begun to prosecute everyone believed by the Spanish State to be involved in supporting terrorism.

All prisoners charged with terrorist offences in the Spanish state are held in distinct high security areas with distinct status, they hold "political status" under the classical definition of the term.

At the municipal elections in Biblao the Basque capital HB lost it's representatives and the PP (Aznar's party) increased it's representation by one councillor.

In the Basque country at the moment the "players" are:
PNV- the centre right nationalist party, in power and always has been for 25 years, it's leader is being vehemently opposed by the "spanish integration" partys. They propose increased autonomy, but fall short of the self-determination wanted by what were HB.
PP- aznar's "one nation" party with roots in the Fascist beurocracy it is the "unionist" party.
PSV new labour equivalent basque branch, presently working closely with the PP oddly enough.
IU- the united left, whom Aznar refers to as the "communists" and indeed they are, till the banning of HB they operated an electoral alliance with the group which is now called "ES" independence socialists.

The Basque language newspaper was banned and closed and it's workers arrested amidst allegations of torture "they closed it because they couldn't understand it" [prof. of Basque at the University of Barcelona].
["they always say they are tortured that's typical of these basques" - Spanish Minister of the Interior.]

by koldo - eskune Thu Jan 22, 2004 00:53

Ni ez naiz espainola eta ez frantzesa ere. Ni euskaldun abertzale bat naiz. Nire arbasoek beren bizitza galdu zuten nik gaur oraindik ere euskaraz mintzatzen jarraitu dezadan. Nik neurian jarraituko dut.

Euskaldunak (basques) have seen Iberians, Celts, Romans, Visigoths, Francs, Spaniards, French, Napoleon, Hitler, Franco come and go. Tribes, Lords, Kings and kingdoms,Nation-States, European Union, Globalisation are just concepts, ideas, philosophies and political ideologies and organisational arrangements that have come and will go. To be a basque is a much deeper antropological reality. We exist as a different cultural,antropological, historical,linguistical, political, national and real human entity nowadays. We should not be denied our right to self rule and to freely elect and plan our future direction. If that right is denied by external foreign invasion of any kind or denomination, we should have the right to defend what we consider very important, that is, what we are and always have been. The defense should be proportional to the threat imposed. We basques have not expanded or invaded other lands or peoples but have been severely hammered in recent history, in particular, by the Spanish speaking and the French speaking nations raping the homeland of our ancestors in very different ways. Other important nations ignored those injustices and even helped them in their aim to erode our ancient basque culture. "Foreigners brought in the machine guns, not us"-I heard once an old quiet basque man say from a corner of a bar. Too right. But ETA is not "the basque problem". Many do not understand this or do not want to as their dogma of State Unity is threatened by the mere existence of Euskaldunak and Euskal Herria. Sadly ETA's existence is a good excuse to pump Home Office budgets and gain influential national and international political posts and status for eminent Spanish and French politicians. Surely is a politically , but mainly existencially ,motivated problem that gave rise to the start of ETA. If it was not, it would have dissappeared like other temporary political organisation that follow passing ideas (Triple A, GRAPO,etc). It also exists because Spaniards do not know what democracy is: Romans, Visigoths, Castilian Kings, Feudalism, Imperialism, Expansionism, Succesion Wars, Primo de Rivera, Franco, Garzon and others that will follow. ETA is a minimalistic reaction to the Spanish threat to the existence and survival of the Basques. Certainly is well below being a proportional response. Lets not lose track though. Ideally the Spaniards and the French should get educated and then they will understand that the answer to the Basque problem would be to accept their right to create their own independent State if us, the basques, wish to do so. Is encouraging to see many non-basques understanding and supporting our plight. Basques have a very good and generous heart and many are ready to give their lives for their mother, father, brother, sister, relatives, friends...country. We do it in different ways. We have done it through centuries and mileniums and all the different ways should be respected. We will not lose the perspective that time has given to us and will never forget that we are only links in the long chain that is Basque History. GORA EUSKADI ASKATUTA !