Truth About Rachel Corrie

by A Gentile Sun Aug 16, 2015 21:26

Read carefully the words of Gerald Kaufman, a British MP who told the British Parliament in January 2009: "The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt from Gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians.

Later in a newspaper interview, he said: "My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza".

The response of the Zionist Jews in the UK was to brand Kaufman a "Self hating Jew" and threaten him. If he has been a non-Jew, he would have been accused of being a "holocaust denier" or a anti-semitic".

Let's face it, you just can't reason with Zionists, they believe in an imaginary being that gives them other people's land, urges them to kill with impunity and without guilt; have religious law books that teach them they are racially superior, and while being one of the most powerful military forces on the plant, cry to the world that they are once again victims, while they systematically murder men women and kids.

They killed brave Rachel Corrie an American air worker with impunity, while the American government and press were silent. The same press went almost hysterical with rage when Amanda Knox, an American, was charged with the murder of a British student in Italy. Rachel was crushed to death by a military bulldozer. Are Israelis ashamed? No, they hold parties on the day she died and call them "Pancake Parties" to celebrate their killing of this innocent and brave American kid. How sick can you get?

That's Israel for you.

by wageslave Sat Mar 23, 2013 16:59

can we get back on topic please? Show a little respect and stop derailing this thread about Rachel Corrie by turning it into some sort of abusive flame war.

-wageslave

by Geraldo Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:48

You are definitely missing the point. You are trying to dispute the claim that many jews disagree with israeili actions, which, the link i posted shows that they do. Now you are trying to shift the goalposts to say that the MAJORITY support all israeli actions. The MAJORITY favour a diplomatic solution for peace, the MAJORITY feel that this should be done by giving land back. But even if the majority didn't feel this way, we are talking about whether MANY feel that way. And 10, 20, 30 % is still MANY by any account. I'm sorry that you cant seem to grasp these concepts and you feel that you need to insult me, but it seems to me that you are slipping down a dark slope. Yes you looked at the article, yet you saw what you wanted to see, and I don't say this lightly in any way or consider this a throwaway comment, but having given you the time to consider your position and yet you persist along this line of argument I feel that you are bigoted. I have a jewish friend and I shudder to think how you would talk to her in a pub after a few drinks.

by Zionism=Nazism Sat Mar 23, 2013 03:02

rather than just arguing for the sake of argument

For example :"Not all Jewish people are rabid zionists.

I certainly never made any claim that ALL Jewish people are rabid zionists, so I really can't see what you're arguing about

Me: "his interest seems to be to "save" the Jewish people the corrosive effect of adherence to the Nazi-like ideology of Zionism."
You: "Whats wrong with that?

Where do you get these strange notions from - I certainly never said that there was anything wrong with that - in fact I clearly said "There's nothing wrong with that, and indeed I wish there were more like him," - do you actually read comments before you reply to them? I'm all in favour of Jewish Anti-Zionism - what I object to is people pretending that he's a champion of Palestinian rights, (such as the right to decide how you combat your oppression by a bunch of land-stealing Zio-Nazis) when he's clearly not.

Finkelstein has the right to be concerned with the image of Jewish people that Zionism claims to represent. What he does not have a right to do is attack Palestinians for attempting to combat their oppression by the non-violent tactic of BDS.

I'm objecting to Finkelstein being portrayed as a champion of Palestinian rights when he is not - if he cannot support a call for non-violent tactics of BDS then he really is not the great champion of Palestinian rights that many would seek to portray him as

"Norman has made many compelling speeches . . . . . .likening [Fascist Zionism] to the behaviour of the Nazi's."

So he has - but still can't bring himself to support BDS - so as I stated then: he's not primarily concerned with Palestinian rights, more concerned with Jewish image. That however is not how he is portrayed by many Anti-Zionists

You don't appear to understand the difference between the two - it's quite an important one - Rachel Corrie for example was concerned with Palestinian rights primarily - I seriously doubt she cared much saving Judaism from itself.

Nor do I for that matter. B utPalestinians calls for BDS are For Palestinians to make, and Finkelstein has no business making the sort of claims he has made.

Calling people 'criminal' who seek only to use non-violent tactics to achieve their rights is far more in line with current Zio-Nazi thinking than it is with Palestinian resistance to Zio-Nazi oppression.

If Finkelstein had real concern for Palestinian rights, and real respect for Palestinians right to decide for themselves the best way to combat Zio-Nazi oppression, he would either keep his opinions to himself on this subject or support the call for BDS

By labelling BDS as "criminal" Finkelstein has in effect sided with the state of Israel against a non-violent Palestinian tactic that really would be damaging to the economy of the Zio-Nazi state.

If Finkelstein cannot bring himself to support the call by Palestinians for the tactics of non-violence, at a time when the many Politicians go around claiming that Palestinians have no interest in peaceful co-existance, then in the long-term he's more of a liability than a asset to the Palestinian cause

by Finkle Sat Mar 23, 2013 02:13

"his interest seems to be to "save" the Jewish people the corrosive effect of adherence to the Nazi-like ideology of Zionism."

Whats wrong with that? Seems a reasonable goal, to want your own people to aspire to a higher standard of behaviour, and in the process, improve the lot of Palestinians.

Norman has made many compelling speeches highlighting the treatment of the Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli state, and likening it to the behaviour of the Nazi's. His books highlight their plight too.

I don't put him on a pedestal, but I do however have a lot of respect Norman Finklestein for taking a determined and principled stand against zionism in the face of much harsh criticism from his own people, which is all the more potent because his relations actually died in the nazi camps.

Not all Jewish people are rabid zionists. Many are decent. Some, exceptionally so, Like Norman or Chomsky.

by Zionism=Nazism Sat Mar 23, 2013 01:46

" People like Norman Finklestein have had a disproportionate influence on the debate BECAUSE they were Jewish. "

Finkelstein is now running around trying to dissuade people from supporting the Boycott movement and is saying that calls for a boycott (BDS) are 'criminal'

Finkelstein renews attack on BDS “cult,” calls Palestinians who pursue their rights “criminal” - http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/finkel...ights

With Jewish 'supporters' like him the Palestinians haven't got a hope. If he can't support a call for boycott, from Palestinian Civil Society representatives, then he's of no use whatsoever to the Palestinians.

I respected Finkelstein's courage in standing up to the blatant misuse of the Holocaust to justify Israeli Fascism, but unlike you I refuse to put him on a pedestal

Seriously - the LAST thing Palestinians need, in terms of BDS, is more people like Finkelstein - like many other supposed Anti-Zionists, he's really just Anti-Zionist because Zionism's Nazi-like nature offends his left-wing principles,.

There's nothing wrong with that, and indeed I wish there were more like him, and if there were I would not have written anything about the numbers/percentages of Jewish people that firmly support Israel no matter what. But Finkelstein is NOT primarily Pro-Palestinian.
Rather his interest seems to be to "save" the Jewish people the corrosive effect of adherence to the Nazi-like ideology of Zionism.

by Zionism=Nazism Sat Mar 23, 2013 01:21

"You seem to be arguing that all Jews are evil."

obviously you too are unable.TO.Read.And.Comprehend.

You seem to be trying desperately to hang a false claim of anti-Semitism on anyone here voicing a different opinion -

It ain't my fault that you and the other guy are completely unable to understand what was contained in the link he posted - All I did was simply show that he really couldn't have understood or read the article he linked since it in fact basically contradicts every point he tried to make.

You run about claiming MANY Jewish people are horrified etc etc

All I did was ask you "How many"

This si a question you have no answer for and his linked article actually shows the opposite.

All I'm doing is pointing out that YOU have no basis for your claim " MANY Jewish people are horrified " - the most you could claim is that SOME Jewish pepole are horrified. Unless you can supply a reliable figure then saying "Many" is just nonsense. Just something you made up - and indeed the linked article prove that the Majority of Jewish Britons are NOT "horrified" at Israels actions since the Article clearky stated that

‘The survey shows that the vast majority of respondents exhibit strong personal support for, and affinity with, Israel: 95% have visited the country, 90% see it as the “ancestral homeland” of the Jewish people, and 86% feel that Jews have a special responsibility for its survival.’

Additionally, 82% state that Israel plays a central or important role in their Jewish identities, 72% categorize themselves as Zionists, 76% consider Israel to be relevant to their day-to-day lives in Britain, and 87% view British Jews as part of a global Jewish diaspora.

which completely contradicts your point and his.

So now you both want to make it about me, so that you can both try and ignore the fact that virtually every point you both made has been shown to be wrong, simply by reading the article linked by the other guy.

TBH it would probably be smarter to simply read and understand hat the article says BEFORE you go around making claims about it

==========

He linked that article not me - if you don't like people reading the articles you link and then pointing out your complete mis- characterisation of those linked articles perhaps you should not bother linking any articles at all.

If you link to something and then make false claims about what it says you really don't have any right to complain when others point out your mistakes.

and if you can't engage in a discussion on the false characterisation of that article without trying to insinuate that anyone disagreeing with you is a Jew-hater then perhaps you really should bother trying to engage in any discussion at all.

by Geraldo Sat Mar 23, 2013 00:54

Ok, you seem to be missing the point, in a HUGE way. Take deep breaths and think VERY CAREFULLY. Because you are coming off as a massive bigot. Consider the context of our discussion and step back. Please.

by Finkle Sat Mar 23, 2013 00:32

Hey, Z=N

I think you should listen to Geraldo. You seem to be arguing that all Jews are evil. Thats playing into the hands of Zionists. And it's NOT true. And it's also one step away from sounding a bit like a nazi yourself!

Concentrate on Zionists and your posts are more credible and less easily discounted as "anti semitism"

There are plenty of decent ethical Jewish people in the world. Less so in Israel it seems unfortunately. It's important to try to bring more jewish people over to the other side of the argument. Thats what will really change things.

People like Norman Finklestein have had a disproportionate influence on the debate BECAUSE they were Jewish.

We need more articulate Jewish people taking sides with the Palestinians. Your approach will only alienate them.

by Zionism=Nazism Fri Mar 22, 2013 23:39

again from the link YOU posted:

‘The survey shows that the vast majority of respondents exhibit strong personal support for, and affinity with, Israel: 95% have visited the country, 90% see it as the “ancestral homeland” of the Jewish people, and 86% feel that Jews have a special responsibility for its survival.’

Additionally, 82% state that Israel plays a central or important role in their Jewish identities, 72% categorize themselves as Zionists, 76% consider Israel to be relevant to their day-to-day lives in Britain, and 87% view British Jews as part of a global Jewish diaspora.

Seriously, did you actually read it before posting it?

Or did you just refuse to acknowledge anything in there that contradicted the crap you are trying to push here?

It hilarious that you try to accuse me of racism when the so-called "evidence" you post in support of that dishonest claim actually confirms just about every point I made.

not being judgemental/aggressive/patronising - but you're not very observant, are you?

by Zionism=Nazism Fri Mar 22, 2013 23:31

clicking on your link the very FIRST sentence completely contradicts most if not all of your statements

"Jews in Britain strongly identify with and support Israel.
They are ready to see Israel swap territory for peace and to talk with Hamas if it will advance the cause of peace. At the same time, they are concerned about Israel’s security, support the separation barrier/security fence and view the 2008/09 operation in Gaza as “a legitimate act of self-defence.”’"

Did you even read the stupid link before you posted it?

Cos it sure doesn't look like you managed to even read the first sentence

Learn.To.Read.

74% think that Orthodox Judaism has too much influence in Israel, - so what ? What the hell does that have to do with anything - the most NAZI-like behaviour comes from the so-called "secular" Jews - the religious nuters are bad enough , but the secular ones are often much worse

78% favour a two-state solution to the conflict with the Palestinians; - due to the Zio-Nazis on-going land stealing and bantustanisation of Palestinian territory the 2-state solution, if it ever appears, will be dead in the water - so no wonder so many British Jewish people support it - they already know that given the facts on the ground there can never be a viable Palestinian state because the land has been carved up to creat e Jewish-Only Apartheid Roads, Jewish-Only Apartheid Towns etc etc

74% oppose the expansion of existing settlements in the West Bank; -- "expansion"? Wow - how noble of them - It's not the expansion that is the problem but the very fact of the [illegal] existence of such Colonies on stolen land in the first place. The British Jewish people surveyed no doubt a are aware of that - therefore to claim to be against the expansion of this land stealing progeamme, and then claim that that somehow means you do not automatically support illegal Israeli actions is just plain dishonest

by Geraldo Fri Mar 22, 2013 23:05

Here zionazi, I think a bit of self assessment of cognitive logic is needed here. I dont say this in an agressive or patronising tone, but a few gievances I take with your many vs few argument.

Be. Very. Careful.
Firstly, since I know very little of the area I did a quick google about global jewish support for israeli actions, and from what I can tell, it isnt a very small percentage that object. For example, in the UK there was this study: http://www.brin.ac.uk/news/2010/jewish-attitudes-toward...rael/

A few key figures from that: "74% think that Orthodox Judaism has too much influence in Israel, 56% feel that non-Jewish minority groups suffer from discrimination in the country, : 78% favour a two-state solution to the conflict with the Palestinians; 74% oppose the expansion of existing settlements in the West Bank; and 67% favour exchanging land for peace. A majority (52% against 39%) favours negotiating with Hamas to achieve peace."

Secondly, arguing about how large or small the percentage of jews that object with the aim to construe that somehow its ok to brand all jews in same manner ( as is intimated by reprising Finkle in his reprisal of Isaacs post). That is almost the definition of racism. Again, not being judgemental/agressive/patronising, we all need these checks sometimes. To try and blur the lines between Israelis and Jews is playing directly into their hands.

by Zionism=Nazism Fri Mar 22, 2013 00:32

"Many jews worldwide are horrified at what is being done in their name in Palestine."

"Many" is a VERY subjective term - What percentage are "horrified" by the actions of the Zio/Judeo-Nazis? Not nearly enough of them, IMO

By far the vast majority of Jewish people seem to support the Nazi-Like State of Israel, whenever push comes to shove virtually ALL of them line up on the side of the Zio/Judeo-Nazis in Israel.

For example : 100,000 sounds like "Many" but if we're talking "percentage of Jewish People" and the figure in question happens to be something like "100,000" then THAT could never honestly be described as "Many Jewish People" given that it's a tiny tiny fraction of the total

So despite yer claim that "many jews worldwide are horrified " the fact is that it really is only a tiny percentage.

So not really "MANY" is it? (IF you were trying to be honest, that is.)

"Some Jewish people are horrified, but MANY MANY more are apparently not" would be a far more accurate description

by Finkle Thu Mar 21, 2013 15:33

It's not the Jews per se. It's the Israeli government with the support of a significant swathe of the Israeli population and a bunch of influential hawkish ex-pats in the US involved in the likes of AIPAC.

Many jews worldwide are horrified at what is being done in their name in Palestine.

by Isaac Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:59

jews, do not lie with your reason. what ever you tell us, we are all know and all the nations in the world already knows the actual behavior of Jews today. from your history, and we already know your history and it have taught us. no wonder there have a religion that calls you as the only people nation in the world who were cursed by god, prophet and all creatures on earth and in heaven

by Sohail Khan Sat Sep 22, 2012 07:43

TO THE AUTHOR!
I like your cleverness by putting blame to Palestinian Authority, but unfortunately the reality is different ( which you are not even able to realize ). Please think at-least once if someone took your home and killing your kids/people forcefully ? What you will do ?

If it is war...is it justified that you are so called legally, Internationally, morally allowed to kill innocent, Unarmed Palestinian with latest and heaviest weapon ? and I am not even allowed to cry ?

PLEASE FOR GOD SAKE STOP PUBLISHING ONE SIDED STORY....PLEASE STOP PROTECTING ISRAEL...TRUST ME OTHERWISE ONE DAY YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR IT & IT COULD BE WORST THEN YOUR IMAGINATION.

by i know better Tue Nov 02, 2004 17:45

Rachel Corrie was Jewish, you fool!

by Harvey Chindle Wed Aug 06, 2003 22:58 chindle at mail dot com

Re: My original posting and sub-heading. I'm sorry, I was trying to be somewhat nuanced, which doesn't work with this lot - everything is a conspiracy theory.

Yes, there was an action at Jenin, but it was not the massacre the PA wants you to believe. It was made a war zone by terrorists who mingle with civilians populations (see Geneva Conv. on that one, my friends). If the IDF really wanted a 'massacre' they would have used air power instead of sacraficing their own men.

Here, if you can handle it, is the truth...

What Really Happened in Jenin?
The Jenin refugee camp in the northern West Bank was the scene of some of the harshest fighting during Israel's "Defensive Shield" operation. It contained an extensive military infrastructure for terrorist operations against Israel that involved all of the main Palestinian terrorist groups: Islamic Jihad, Fatah, and Hamas. Since October 2000, Jenin-based terrorist networks were responsible for 28 attempted suicide attacks against Israel, of which 23 were actually executed. It is no wonder that in a captured Fatah document (http://www.idf.il/english/news/jenin.stm) the Palestinians themselves call Jenin "the martyrs' (meaning suicide bombers) capital" -- as-simat al-istashidin.



Palestinian and International Charges of Massacre
Yet Palestinian spokesmen characterized Israel's counter-terrorist operations in Jenin, right from the start, as a "massacre." Palestinian Authority negotiator Saeb Erakat charged during a CNN interview on April 10, 2002, that Israeli troops had killed "more than 500 people." On April 12, he repeated the charge on CNN: "a real massacre was committed in the Jenin refugee camp." He added that 300 Palestinians were being buried in mass graves. On April 15, Erakat continued his charges: "And I stand by the term 'massacres' were committed in the refugee camps." He also began to refer to Israeli actions as "war crimes."

Erakat was not alone in hurling the charge of an Israeli "massacre" of Palestinians in Jenin. Peter Hansen, the commissioner-general of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) told a Danish newspaper, the Internatavisen Jyllands-Posten, on April 19, that 300-400 Palestinians had been killed in Jenin. He told CNN: "I had, first of all, hoped the horror stories coming out were exaggerations as you often hear in this part of the world, but they were all too true" (CNN, April 19, 2002). CNN correspondent Rula Amin gave her own impressions of "a lot of destruction, a lot of devastation" (CNN, April 17, 2002).

Terje Roed-Larsen, the UN Secretary-General's representative in the Middle East, was initially more careful: "I cannot say that there wasn't a massacre, but I cannot say there was a massacre." Yet he still insisted: "But I think that the question of an international investigation is a highly relevant question on the basis of what I saw" (CNN, April 18, 2002). He spoke of "clear violations of basic humanitarian principles." Hansen's impressions and Larsen's reports undoubtedly affected the assessment of UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan.



What Really Transpired
Now that the city of Jenin has been open for several weeks, a clearer picture of the reality on the ground has emerged:

No Massacre of Palestinians Occurred
Contrary to the repeated televised charges of Saeb Erakat and other Palestinian spokesmen, "hundreds" of Palestinians were not killed. As of May 1, there were 54 bodies found in Jenin -- not 500 -- according to Israeli military sources. Palestinian officials, on the ground, now verify the Israeli numbers: Mousa Kadoura, director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah organization for the northern West Bank, claims 56 Palestinians died in Jenin (Washington Times, May 1, 2002). Foreign Minister Shimon Peres has stated that only seven civilian casualties have been identified (Israel Foreign Ministry Press Release, April 20, 2002). These limited Palestinian casualties were due to the fact that Israel did not employ massive air strikes or artillery barrages in Jenin, but rather sent its vulnerable ground forces to engage in house-to-house combat. As a result, Israel lost 23 soldiers in the battle. Essentially, Israeli soldiers lost their lives in order to keep the collateral deaths of Palestinian civilians to a minimum.

The Role of Palestinian Explosives and the Limited Scale of Destruction
Palestinians admit that they employed large amounts of explosive devices in Jenin. There were booby-trapped buildings and explosive devices configured as anti-personnel mines. Captured Islamic Jihad operative Tabeat Mardawi told CNN that 1,000-2,000 explosive devices had been prepared. An Islamic Jihad bomb-maker from Jenin told Al-Ahram Weekly: "We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp" (MEMRI, April 24, 2002).

Still, the level of destruction was limited. Out of 1,896 buildings in the Jenin refugee camp, 130 buildings were destroyed -- or less than 10 percent (Israel Defense Forces -- Central Command). According to Fatah activist Mousa Kadoura, the area affected was the size of a large football field (Washington Times, May 1, 2002). Moreover, because of the large amounts of Palestinian explosives in the camp, it is difficult to discern what component of this destruction was caused by Israeli forces and what part was a result of Palestinian detonation.



The United Nations and the Jenin Issue
The UN Security Council adopted Resolution 1405 on April 19, 2002, which welcomed "the initiative of the Secretary-General to develop accurate information regarding recent events in the Jenin refugee camp through a fact-finding team." Israel initially announced that it would cooperate with this fact-finding effort, but then expressed serious reservations about the fact-finding team as Israeli contacts with the UN Secretariat got underway:

The Fact-Finding Team's Mandate
The UN fact-finding team for Jenin was not set to operate under the same mandate as other UN fact-finding missions. The standard rules for fact-finding teams are outlined in UN General Assembly Resolution 46/59 that was adopted in December 1991. Arguing that Jenin was not under Israeli sovereignty, the UN did not want to apply these generally-accepted standards and hence be restricted by Israeli law, that would have protected Israeli soldiers from being called to testify before the team. While Israel has nothing to hide, this sort of intrusive investigation of Israeli soldiers would have undermined the morale of an army still engaged in a war against terrorism. Israel was not seeking to dictate special rules for itself, but only asking that it be dealt with by the same standards used in other fact-finding missions.

The Composition of the Fact-Finding Team
The team was composed of individuals with expertise largely in the area of humanitarian relief -- not counter-terrorism. It is doubtful, given this professional background, that they would have the ability to judge the extent of the terrorist threat to Israel that emanated from Jenin. Equally, these humanitarian aid experts would not be able to establish that Israel employed a proportional level of military force by using ground forces in house-to-house combat. The fact that one team member, Cornelio Sommaruga, once compared the Star of David to the swastika when he was president of the International Red Cross, did not give Israelis a sense that the team members were chosen to make a fair and balanced judgment.

The UN Double-Standard
The UN did not want to explicitly commit itself beforehand to investigate the scale of Palestinian terrorism in the Jenin refugee camp. It appeared to be more interested in the consequences of Israeli military action and not its causes. This was also evident from the team's composition. The UN faced a difficult problem in Jenin. How did a refugee camp supported by UNRWA become the "capital of suicide bombers." Israel found that a local UNRWA worker, in fact, had posters praising suicide bombers.



Conclusions
The UN Security Council undermined its own international credibility by adopting a resolution supporting the dispatch of a fact-finding team by the UN Secretary-General on the basis of groundless rumors about a massacre of Palestinians by Israeli forces in the Jenin refugee camp. For Israel, which sacrificed 23 Israeli soldiers because it employed ground forces in house-to-house combat instead of heavy firepower, the UN's action was insulting. That the UN was so determined to dispatch its fact-finding team even after it became absolutely clear that there was no massacre in Jenin raises the question of whether the UN Secretariat had "a hidden agenda" in involving itself in this issue: i.e., deepening UN involvement in the Israeli-Palestinian question. Israeli-UN relations have been badly damaged by the Jenin episode and will require many years of hard diplomatic work to restore.

by Jacques Wed Aug 06, 2003 18:55

If you look, my friend, you will see it is you who introduced personal attacks by making an accusation of whingeing.

by kokomero Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:42

You have confined yourself to personal attacks and obviously you have nothing worthwhile to add to the debate otherwise you would have done so by now!

by Jacques Wed Aug 06, 2003 02:16

Ok, so victims of racism are whingeing, are they? That assertion tells us something about you, Kokomero, doesn't it?

by kokomero Tue Aug 05, 2003 17:09

I suggest if you can defend Israels policy towards the Palestinians that you do so! Otherwise whingeing will convince nobody!

by Jacques Sun Aug 03, 2003 23:37

How is that most contributors to this site like Travellers but hate Jews?

Please explain.

by Sadie Sun Aug 03, 2003 23:30

These images prove only that someone was injured. Not by whom, where, when and in what numbers; so it really is pointless posting them here.

by Kev Fri Aug 01, 2003 17:12

is that the original poster tried to claim that Jenin did not happen. These pictures are victims of Jenin. I have about 20 more of these pics.

by Canteen Kevin Fri Aug 01, 2003 14:05

STILL snapping at peoples heels, you little shit.

by Seáinín Fri Aug 01, 2003 02:50

I thought it was just something on telly. What's your point pictureposter?

by TheIdiotsAreTakingOver Thu Jul 31, 2003 23:00

What is the world coming to?

by Kev Thu Jul 31, 2003 18:34

"Yes another Jenin that wasn't"

Eh, what?

Are you suggesting that this didn't happen (see pics)?

I suppose Sharba and Shatila were made up too, probably by rabid anti-semites?

by Kev - Various, but not in the IPSC/ISM Thu Jul 31, 2003 18:00

"The incident occurred while IDF forces were removing shrubbery along the security road near the border between Israel and Egypt at Rafah to uncover explosive devices, and destroying tunnels used by Palestinian terrorists to illegally smuggle weapons from Egypt to Gaza"

Removing SHRUBBERY??? hahahahahahaha. really? you know the best way to remove shrubbery is to burn it. Maybe get a lend of those 'flame-throwing rakes' that Reagan sold to Saddam? (apologies to Bill Hicks).

And how do you destroy 'underground tunnels' with above ground bulldozers? Surely if such tunnels exist, it would be very very unsafe for a multi-ton piece of machinery to drive over them? Were they looking for a Death Star aswell? Or is that in Iran/Syria/DPR Korea?

Rachael was sitting behind debris eh? Exactly how much debris accumilates form 'shrubbery clearance'?

Rachael Corrie was murdered.

by kokomero Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:40

Drbinoche, if instead of Rachel we were talking about a group of Jewish Israeli anti-globalisation protestors who were stopping supplies of uranium rods reaching Dimona with their bodies and one of them was crushed by a police van?

Would you be so glib in dismissing state murder/manslaughter (with photographic evidence) and its subsequent whitewashing by a compliant judiciary in this case? Aren't the Jews/Israelis the first people who should be wary of dismissing evidence of human rights abuses, murder and torture, given that it is tantamount to a denial of the same?

As for publicity shots, it is the public Israeli shooting and Killing of ISM protestors, cameramen and Palestinians (regrettably in this order) which is attracting the publicity.

No amount of spinning by you and other excurers of the criminal Israeli regieme will alter this fact!

Stop shooting and killing people and stealing their land and there will be no criticism of Israel, only praise and acceptance by the broad international community not just the US and their boot-lickers.

by Tom Paulin Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:25

Seáinín is right - sometimes war is necessary.
Death to the Brooklyn settlers!!!!!

by Drbinoche Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:22

Now I am certainly not going to say her death was necessary or acceptable, but lets be realistic, if you stand in front of a 45 ton bulldozer and refuse to move, then bad things will happen. She must have been aware of this.

Also it would not surprise me if the photos were taken earlier, as it is a fantastic publicicty shot. I am not saying I know it was taken earlier but I would not be surprised. It stands to reason that the group she was with would have been taking photos and if one of em gets killed, then you might have a very good photo to use.

As far as calling it murder, the Israelis were conducting a raid and a sweep and clear operation, they had what tools they needed, the people around the place were told to move, they didnt, the israelis went ahead with the operation, in the melee a person was killed by falling debris from the bulldozer. Now did the IDF force her to stay there.........NO. She stayed of her own free will. Did they tie her to the spot and bound her hands and legs.............NO. Therefore she would have known of the risks she was taking. She was a big girl and knew what she was doing.

The palestinians use techniques like these to move freely, in future if the ISM want to be true, they should submit all of the photos with a time index to a mediatory body. Take photos of inside the house, the photos of the IDF forces and so forth. Do not just present what you think we should see, present it all, then truth can be found.

(BTW I am away and the keyboard is different, so please excuse any spelling mistakes)

by iosaf Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:01

I never knew Rachel Corrie, the first I heard of her was March 16th 2003. I remember the weekend before the war on Iraq began her photograph was left surrounded by candles in front of the Generalitat (Catalan Government). I stood a while and spoke to passerbys, three of whom were israeli, two girls one guy. The girls and I wondered what brought a 23year old woman to her death, what drove her what motivated her. The inscription mentioned the many thousands of deaths in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The women moved off, with smiles and shrugs "shalom", they assured me they would not return to Israel, if they were to have children in their lives, they would not be born in Israel, one said "shame", the guy, perhaps like most Israelis of his age had served as a soldier, he spat with fury "thousands of dead terrorists you mean"; "shalom" I said quickly adding "will you go back to Israel?". "Of course it is my home" he retorted.
Within a week we had started the peace camp in front of that building which lasted till Bush announced the "end of his war". I never forgot that it had started with her photograph, the icon of martyrdom, her hagiography and demonisation.

RIP.
Shalom.
I believe the Qa-desh (hebrew funereal rite) has been sung enough.

by kokomero Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:57

So the Israeli establishment have banded together to attempt to discredit ISM: their verdict should be seen in this context!

As for military operations, the driver of the bulldozer who deliberately killed Rachel Corrie was certainly not acting alone. It is normal in the cases of such operations not to send in Bulldozers without military ground and sometimes air support so you can be sure that the driver was being instructed by someone who had a better view of what was going on in front of him.

If you check out the link below you will also see that deafness is a requirement for driving such vehicles as Rachel and an ISM colleague were using a loud-hailer to avert the driver, or maybe he has selective hearing?

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

You attempt to undermine the case against the IDF in the murder of Rachel Corrie on the basis of the lack of photographic evidence. Wrong again!

Funnily enough this is not the first attempt by the Zionist propaganda machine to discredit Rachel having already posted a fake photo of her participating in a radical Islamic protest and "burning" an American flag.

If you are in any doubt about the IDFs callous disregard for human life you should examine the footage taken by a Channel 4 camera-crew of ISM activists trying to hold back a bulldozer driver who was literally chomping at the bit (link below)http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/special_reports/dispatches_killing_zone.html .

This is exactly the same sort of propaganda and outright lies about WMD the Israelis are using to induce the Americans and Brits to wage war first against Iraq and in the future against Syria and others as revealed by the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,999669,00.html.

by Joe Sheehan Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:21

What a load of Bullshit! She was murdered by the Israeli Occupation Force!

by BlackPope Thu Jul 31, 2003 03:54 BlackPope at operamail dot com

.. because that comment is so totally atypical of you - it is a lucid thought that actually begins to make .. some .. kind .. of ... SENSE !?!

I am stunned but recovered enough to congratulate you on this magnificient effort.

Would you agree that your analogy holds further still:

If people are not prepared to fight, the BushReich of US-Imperio-Capital will tyrannise the world for the next 100,000 years?

Therefore total war against the BushReich is necessary. If you deny this you are deluding yourself about the nature of the Beast.


Schalom, BP

with contractually-binding greetings

by Seáinín Thu Jul 31, 2003 03:05

If it had not been for people prepared to accept that they must fight, the Nazis would rule Europe to this very day.

Sometimes war is necessary. Those who deny this are deluding themselves about human nature.

by GreenPartyMike - Green Party USA Thu Jul 31, 2003 00:37

Harvey,
I am an American Human Rights, Anti-war Activist. I was arrested for engaging in a number of civil disobedience protests this year (despite what corporate media claims and shows, there was/is a large number of people here opposed to the brutal, immoral Iraq war and sanctions, note the rise of the Howard Dean campaign of the spineless and cowardly Democratic Party)

I was arrested while wearing my Nurses Scrubs which was proudly emblazoned with IN HONOUR OF RACHEL CORRIE on the back. The state of Israel has the support of the extreme right wing, born again christian (and tending towards real, honest to god anti-semitism) movement as well as the corporate media but is recognized as being a brutal and flagrant human rights abuser by those of us here in the anti-war and social justice community. We know how Rachel Corrie died. She was murdered.

During my trial I read out a statement that said amongst other things that those of us in the anti-war and social justice community know that it was people like us who hid Jews in Nazi Germany or fought slavery and racism here. We know who and what we are and are proud of it. We also recognize bigotry, intolerance and state sponsored terrorism, from Egypt to Israel to Iraq under Sadaam Hussein.

Rachel Corrie was murdered for standing up and not accepting the brutality of a people. Ironically enough, if Rachel was alive during the 30's in Germany she probably would have been killed for protecting Jews. So fuck off and do not slander the memory of this fine young woman. She and her kind make me proud to be a human being first, and American second.