Rally for Life

by Red & Black Hedonistic Dionysian Sandwich Wed Jul 04, 2007 15:59

"In the evening, after Mass"

Can ye say a few roasaries for my sins if I'm not able to make it along? I'm also interested in joining SPUCs evangelical branch and recieveing more information through your "quarterly Prayer Newsletter", tis most informative in keeping people up to date on the " What child abuse?" Popes proseltizing about the sins of us hedons. Your emergency evangelical batphone for prayer requests is always there for me whenever the four horsemen of the apocalypse are sitting on the wall at the end of me garden too.

http://www.spuc.org.uk/about/evangelicals/
http://www.spuc.org.uk/about/evangelicals/bible-teachings
http://www.spuc.org.uk/about/evangelicals/obedience-to-god
http://www.spuc.org.uk/about/no-less-human/aims

by R.E. Silvera - Choice Ireland Thu Jul 05, 2007 01:49

Let's see this rally for what it truly is: an opportunity to keep sweeping Irish women under the carpet, pretending abortion doesn't exist for them while it DOES, only, of course, if they can afford to travel. Abortion is a modern issue and is here to stay, and just because a small island has laws against it, it doesn't mean that its inhabitants won't try to find a solution for their problems elsewhere.

by Anna Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:04

The pro-life group are as much entitled to hold a protest as the pro-choicers are. You can try to shame them as much as you want but that won' break their ressolve. I am considering going to the rally because if it wasn't for the laws we currently have, I probably wouldn't be alive today. My mum did not abort me so it means that the unborn also have rights too.

by Dorothy Gale Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:35

But lets see this rally for what it realy is. Its being organised by Youth Defense and the Mohther & Child Campaign. THese groups oppose abortion in all circumstances, even when the mothers life is at risk. They also oppose contraception, gay rights and even divorce.

They want to close down the Rape Crisis Centres because they claim that these centres encourage abortion.

Some people will attend this rally just to oppose abortion but the organisers have a far wider agenda. They want to reintroduce a Catholic equivalent of sharia law.

by Anna Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:47

"Some people will attend this rally just to oppose abortion but the organisers have a far wider agenda."

You're not telling porkies by any chance? I don't believe that the organizers have any wider agenda than the protest they set out to hold. Now, I'll put the question to you: Do the pro-choicers have any wider agenda than just the pro-choice campaign they set out to do? I was amazed last time when I saw protesters from the pro-choice rallies attending the SWP and Shannon rallies. Are they afraid of exposing themselves too much how they turn out in such small numbers?

by GH Thu Jul 05, 2007 16:25

Anna says "The pro-life group are as much entitled to hold a protest as the pro-choicers are. " and then goes on to ask do pro-choice people not have a wider agenda also e.g. anti-war etc.

In my experience people who call themselves pro-life are rarely consistent about what they protest about: while fair play to Anna, she seems to attend anti-war demos, few of those who call themselves pro-life do much to protect life after birth. Their focus seems to be on getting children born. As the mother of a severely disabled boy said a few years ago: the right to life should not end at birth. As someone who is active in both the pro-choice and the disability rights movement, I rarely meet so-called pro-life people at disability rights' events, or anti-war or anti-death penalty events.

The wider agenda of anti-abortionists tends to be about shutting down sexual openness and going back to the time when sex before marriage was considered shameful and babies born outside of marriage baptised at the back of the churches. Oh, and women knowing their proper place....

By contrast, the wider agenda of pro-choice people is usually a better world where everyone has more control over their own lives - including people with disabilities. And, of course, how can women have control over their own lives if they are forced to carry every pregnancy to birth however intolerable their situation when they fall pregnant? And, before someone says they could continue the pregnancy and have the subsequent baby adopted....that's grand if you're young and don't already have children and can take a year out of your life. But most women are not young, footlose and fancy-free. Mind you, there would probably be fewer abortions in the world that pro-choice people tend to be looking for since there would be proper childcare, decent housing and no discrimination against mothers....

by Bacchus Thu Jul 05, 2007 16:32

is that why they distribute homophobic material (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/68442) , write for the openly rascist Hibernian magazine, pay for billboards arguing against stem cell research, run ads in catholic rag Alive! for donations of up to €5000 so they can buy free tickets for kids to see "The Passion of Christ":

"The ad takes the form of a letter from Mother and Child Campaign chairwoman Niamh O'Brien (formally Niamh nic Mhatúna), who was a former chair of Youth Defence.

She writes that more young people go to the movies than to Mass and this might be a film which brought them back to Mass.

"Young people need to see this movie. But there's a great danger they may not . . . We want to give as many free tickets as possible to young people. "Mel (not an anti-semite) Gibson personally spent $25m on this movie, he knows its spiritual value. Please pray that together we can bring as many souls as possible to see its powerful message," the letter says."

Its not not just about abortion with this lot, it's an evangelical crusade.

by Th!nk Thu Jul 05, 2007 18:07

The organisers should have people handing out condoms at the GPO next Saturday. That's a good way to prevent abortion.

by krossie - wsm personal capacity Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:25

> The pro-life group are as much entitled to hold a protest as the pro-choicers are.

Which is presumably why the editors have left the "pro-life" announcement up here
(what a fucking sickening term - implication everybody else outside their stultifyingly narrow universe is "pro-death?).
Would that Youth Defence had been so behind free speech when they where beating up activists with Hurley sticks round the time of the x case!

Krossie

by Terena Sat Jul 07, 2007 04:04

I notice that "after Mass" somebody is scheduled to talk. I wonder if any Irish protestants intend to attend the rally, and if they intend to provide a speaker "after the service"? Do any Irish agnostics have moral reservations about abortion? They obviously wouldn't hold a prayer service. (I'm referring to the republic here.)

by DL Sat Jul 07, 2007 15:29

I witnessed the rally today but had to leave early as my bus was due to depart. I counted a lot of people at it, young and old, male and female. They all stood united!

by Choice Activist Sat Jul 07, 2007 19:30

Despite their convoy of buses from allover Ireland, the "lifers" only got a few hundred on their demo. Most of these were over 50. Demographics are certsainly taking effect.The vast majority of Irish people support a womans right to abortion.

by Paris Hilton, (but not the actual) Sat Jul 07, 2007 22:30

I could see far more young people in attendance at the rally.

There were young women who came to show their support for the rights of those who have not been born yet. I spoke to one young woman who previously had a termination carried out on her in the UK and she told me that she had been suffering from post-abortion stress and depression ever since. The woman told me that the doctors often fail to tell their abortion patients that there is also a risk factor of post-traumatic stress. Thats the least they'd expect from a doctor.

by DR Sun Jul 08, 2007 00:28

Youth Defence pulled a very well organised protest today. Hundreths atteneded. I was expecting crazy rapid extremists, but instead I made freinds with the nicest bunch of people you could meet.
Despite what some liberal extremists will tell you, there is more pro-lifers than pro-choicers. I wouldnt attack anyone for being pro-choice but I can see through thier lies. Last week in the same spot, there was a pro-choice protest with 60 people. Youth Defences was about *600!!!

To further analyse the day.

Youth Defences posters where much better deseigned than other protests. Easier to read and with better layouts. YDs PR image have seemed to change. They no longer use scare tactics. This be a result from taking Justin Barrett away from the PR handling.

The protest started on O'Connell street on the pavement. The man with the pseaker ordered the people with big banners first to move on to the road. Then people with little banners inbetween them. Them people without banners all around. It was well organise. No arggression at all. Like a Swiss clock.

The protest ended at the Dail. There was alot of speeches. Some emotive some funny. One speeker advised YD members to be friendly towards people that lie about Youth Defence.

I started talking to some young nice girl. She then introduced me to her friends. Everyone was nice and happy. I decided to join.

2 things I didnt like about the protest.

* Republican Sinn Fein where there. I think it was wrong to be linked to them. Plus its very ironic for pro-life groups to associated with groups that advocate militant extremism.

*To me "pro-life" is a wide term. I think they should have had posters adressing every pro-life issue, not just abortion. War, stemcell research and disability rights.

All and all a good sunny day.

-Instert religios comment here-

*600 people is my estemate, it have been more or less. Defenatly more than the Palestine protest march I was at.

by Aggie Sun Jul 08, 2007 00:32

While I would consider myself to be an agnostic, I believe that all life should be respected. Believe it or not, many people in the anti abortion movement are just regular people. In fact, I know many who care just as deeply about regular Indy topics such as anti-war, GMO, environment and so on.

Well done to everyone who attended todays rally, it was an inspiring event. I myself was an unwanted pregnancy that resulted in adoption into a loving family. If abortion were available here in the 70's, I may not be here today.

I am glad to finally see a more balanced debate on this on Indymedia. Abortion is a sensitive area. It is not just a Catholic issue, it is universal.

by zozimus Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:02

I thought this was just a yd member winding up indy readers, but once i got to the rsf qoute i saw what it really was. rsf wasn't there.

by DR Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:11

How was I trying to wind up annyone? Please qoute.
I reported what I saw and added my annalyse. I saw people with RSF t-shirts and banners. They were there at the start, but the left at some point during the speeches. Several YD members thoguht there presents was unwanted.

by RSFwatch Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:17

RSF were there. I saw them with my own eyes in town today. Here are a few motions at RSF conferences over past years.

"This Ard-Fheis calls for an increase in counselling services for women as an alternative to abortion." proposed by Comhairle Uladh, 2003

"That Sinn Féin Poblachtach is opposed to the present attempt by Stormont to extend the English 1967 Abortion Act to the Six Counties." proposed by McKelvey/Steele Cumann, Belfast, Co Antrim, 2000.

Not a single pro-choice motion exists on their website. RSF are anti-abortion. They were at the rally in support of it. I also heard that they marched with it with their banner.

by RSF watch Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:22

Republican Sinn Féin were at the protest today. They do not support a woman's right to choose. Sinn Féin were not officially at the protest but they are unclear about their position on Abortion. RSF say they are socialists and that they've a radical social agenda but today they were standing alongside Youth Defence types opposing reproductive rights.

by zozimus Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:24

rsf wasnt there nor were they giving away presents to ye. rsf wasnt there and yd would tell ya the same now if it passed some rsf stall along the way perhaps but there is no way , none, that rsf would march, with banners no less

by zozimus Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:26

who said they were pro choice? while membership would be largely pro life that doesnt mean they were there lets see one pic of the "rsf banners"

by zozimus - rsfwatch-watch Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:29

rsf watch 's first sentence claims he saw them then he ends it with he heard about it.

by Apparat - ISN - personal capacity Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:31

I witnessed todays march. It was a disgusting site. Beside the usual suspects on a day trip from the parish centre were a substantial number of young people. The march was at least 5 times the size of the Choice Ireland gathering that I attended outside the Central Bank last week.

Its good that the reactionaries feel the need to mobilise, but they have a stronger "hard core" than we do. Choice Ireland have raised the issue of reproductive rights, and the work done so far is to be commended. However, it's going to take more than some speeches at the Central Bank from David Norris and Ivana Bacik to win free, safe, legal abortion. The strength shown by the God Squad cannot be disregarded. Its going to be a long, hard struggle. Up and at 'em!

by Sarah Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:32

What counts is that numbers were there. It is true what the original story here says, YD have moved on since the bad old days of Justin Barrett. They have become a more dynamic, positive group that care about the rights of the unborn and women. I sadly couldnt attend today but I hope to attend future protests with the YD people on this and other matters.

by Apparat - ISN - personal capacity Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:49

Youth Defense have taken up where the CAZ dropped off, and brought a soundsystem along to the march. As you can imagine, there were no groovybeats bouncing out of the YD van, no overtly sexual hip-movements, and no godless lyrics. The assembled crowd http://tinyurl.com/2s7sn2 listened to Mark Knopflers "Walk of Life" (terrible song, predictable lyrics), "Brewing up a Storm" by the Stunning (any YD connections there?), and "The Final Countdown" by shag-pile-permed cock-rockers Europe.

As far as I could tell, they had no chants. Although the "dynamic" YD now have their own DJ, they clearly haven't found their GR Joe Carolan yet!

by zozimus - rsfwatch -watch Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:57

rsf did not take part in today, i ask any observer from indymedia staff (who unlike the bizarre rsf obsessive would be honest) that was present as an observer to refute rsfwatchs dishonest allegations.

by Frances Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:41

Well done to all who organised the Rally. Who was there and who wasnt there is not the issue. The issue is simply protecting life. Life is sacred to all of us no matter what faith or lack of faith we have, or what political group we belong to. The most defenceless of all (the unborn and the old) need to be protected by all of us. We need simply to love our fellow human beings and stop bickering and fighting useless arguments. There are many people out there suffering because of abortion, men and women. Help them....they dont need your arguments about who was there or not !

by dignitas Sun Jul 08, 2007 15:11

So let's establish something for the record "as it is" - that being the answer to the question - "how many were there?" IN all the comments above there is absolutely no indication of how many people attended the event except one comparison to the attendence at a recent "pro-choice" event. It is ironic is it not - that if one interested in facts such as an indication of the extent of popular mobilisation by those who you have congratulated on their organisational skills twice now in an obvious attempt to have the last word need go use our search engine & examine the reports on a "pro-choice" event and count those in attendance at same to know yours was larger?

gurgle.

by Cogsy (M-L) Sun Jul 08, 2007 18:18

I observed the stormtroopers of the clerical right marching down O'Connell St. with Apparat and can verify there was no RSF banner present. If there were any RSF'ers partcipating in the Virginista popular front, then they were doing so in a personal capacity.

by - Sun Jul 08, 2007 19:02

I seen RSF there as I came down O' Connel St., but I don't think they had anything to do with the Lifers March. They were standing where I always see them, the middle of the road area by the GPO, and the Lifers were to the right of them there.

The religious crowd assembled next to where the republican crowd were already holding a demo. thats all there is to it.

by Apparat - ISN - personal capacity Sun Jul 08, 2007 20:18

I'm not good on crowd estimates. Like I said, there was about 5 times the number that attended last weeks pro-choice march. I'd say that it was around the same size as the IPSC march some weeks back.

Like Comrade Cogsy M-L, I didn't see any RSF banners there. I did see a man with an extra large statue of the Virgin Mary though. No sellotape dispenser was attached.

by Size Doesn't Matter Sun Jul 08, 2007 22:26

'Rally for life'- The laws will be changed to allow for termination of pregnancy
and banging the fundamentalist drum is not going to change that. Of course
'Youth Defence' are aware that they will be paying the costs of the queue of
women who have taken EHCR cases against the state for enforced pregnancy even in the
face of expert medical opinon of non-viability of the foetus. Youth Defence and in
insinuation defence of morality of the young are up against a state which has run out of time
on abortion laws , as to RSF attending , really?
Most Political Party Reps of S.F support medical abortion, interestingly YD finds itself
allied to the US and Scottish Presbetyrians who fund white supremacists. The Rev Ian Paisley
has opposed abortion and the 1967 Act was never introduced to northern ireland. The
fundamentalists of both sides oppose what they see as liberalisation because they
are afraid of women. well done! Put up the photos, I want to see what you look like!

by survivor Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:25

I just don't get how someone can think abortion is a good thing. I have been religious and I have been atheist and to be honest, my changing religious opinions have never affected my position on abortion. to me it is very simple. killing a living human being is wrong. dimple, and is the unborn child a living human being? of course it is. if it wasn't living there would be no argument. dna shows it is human.
what about the mothers rights? well she has the right not to be pregmant - a right she herself gives up when she has sex. no matter what contraception you use you still run the risk of pregnancy and you accept that risk and its consequences when you say yes to sex. it is not okay to kill someone else because you did not think through the possible consequences fo your sexual choices.
and what about rape? well rape is about taking away from a woman all sorts of things unjustly - her right to privacy, her right to choose her sexual partner, her right to be a virgin, her right to choose when and if to be pregnant, her right to protect herself from disease, and on and on. It is a horrific crime. but abortion does not restore what has been stolen. It merely makes another person, the child, another victim of the rapist. no one deserves the death penalty because of their fathwers crimes. a friend of mine is the daughter of a rapist, who raped her mother at fifteen, her mother subsequently put her up for adoption. She is so grateful to her mother for letting her live. I don;t think she deserved to die because of someone elses crime.
what about suicide? wellt he only country that has kept track of the figures (sweden with very wide abortion laws) shows that a women is six times more likely to commit suicide after an abortion. hardly a stunning success rate for a suicide 'cure'
And when the mothers life is at risk? well despite the hype, these medical cases don't exist. Women do have life threatening complications - but abortion is a much slower process(because you have to delay delivery to kill the baby first) than a quick cesaerian, so in real emergencies delivering the baby alive is the best thing for the mother. thats why ireland without abortion ranks at the top of WHO's maternal mortality chart. and don't forget many women die during legal abortions. no woman in ireland is denied necessary medical treatment because of her pregnancy, but thankfully doctors also do their best for their other patient, the baby.

Let me ask you - do you believe in slavery? because if you don't then you can not argue that a woman owns her child. If that child is born, then woman cannot say i own this child and so will kill it, and have the rest of us say, oh well i wouldn't do that myself but i have no right to interfere in your decision'. so what deffirence is there for an unborn child? i know some say well it is inside her body and so dependent on her. but if she brings her born child home from the haspital and neglects to feed it, she will be rightly prosecuted for neglect and child abuse. she does not own her child, but her child, whether born or unborn does have a right to have her take care of the child. women don't just have right they also have responsibilities for their children.
And yes, so do fathers, and so do we all. everyone in this society has a responsibility towards all our children, and as a pro lifer, i do not forget the difficulties of women and children once they are born.

anyway thats enough.
but as 'i said at the beginning, i just don't get how anyone could be pro choice. it really baffles me.

by Apparat Mon Jul 09, 2007 23:50

If the above post is anything to go by, the anti-women clerical right haven't a lot left to say. I haven't read such inarticulate reactionary rubbish in a long time.

Another point about the march. I didn't see any Muslims there. Just reactionary, white, Christians.

by YD supporter. Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:43

I fully support the idea of muslims joining Youth Defence.

by Lillith Tue Jul 10, 2007 09:27

The fact that people can dance around the streets of Dublin acclaiming their heterosexuality and desire
to interefere in the privacy of a woman's body and her relationship with her doctor just goes to prove
that Ireland has not grown up, the fact that people think they own an opinion on the essential privacy
of relationships proves that people have not grown up. The fact that they wave images of aborted
foetuses in the faces of the very young is just desperate. The desire to garner and encourage
fundamental fear and ignorance of the right of women to self-determination indicates a medieval
level of education propounded and delineated by a male church of celibates who show an unwonted interest in the
area of the vagina and little interest in the area of education-afterall priestly abuse is so well hidden and
rationalised societally, that the truly thick support these men and vote for those who would shield them.
The level of argument regarding the human right to terminate a pregnancy as never risen beyond the
issue of : 'I am Catholic and therefore I must protect the right to life of the unborn at any cost'.
This simply put means:- 'I am subject to teaching of dogmatic law which practices an unwonted
interference in the sexual life of women and girls and it suits me to do so because I have no ability
to think beyond the twisted teachings of a church concerned in profit and war'.
Roman Catholicism is not the religion of Ireland and a few noise-makers won't change that, now google'Lilith'
and ponder on this:- 'What in the censored and torn up bible of the dogmatic church was jesus doing on that
couch with Salome'?
Sexuality is a private issue and personally people running around with baloons celebrating their fertility
rites, led by a celibate man who is obviously jaundiced by his interference in Poland and South America
is just laughable. I am surprised that women attended.

by Jacky Tue Jul 10, 2007 09:58

Lillith gives a misleading caricature of arguments against abortion. People don't oppose it because they are Catholics (what about nonconformist Protestants in Northern Ireland, Scotland, North America etc?) Neither are they afraid of sexuality - actually they think sex and the body should be held in dignified reverence, and not flaunted for commercial and sensational purposes as in the popular media, novels and movies. Modern media are saturated with explicit and often frivolous sex. It's all physical sensation minus human love.

by Lillith Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:25

Your body is the expression of your life and should not be 'held in dignified reverence' but accepted
as part of you. This includes your sexuality, now when a church decides that sexuality belongs primarily in
a hetereosexual relationship and within the bounds of marriage that is quite simply a lie.
Defining a child or a woman by their ability to procreate at age of 12 and forcing pregnancy on that child
is child abuse. There is nothing sacred about child abuse, but it is hidden. Canonical and State law
define the pro-creative child as a mother and co-equal with the foetus. That is State abuse of the young
female. If you want to travel down the road of sacred sexuality I suggest reading the basis of Fundamental
theocracy and the cults of the holy Land. Yes! Please do- ask yourself where the idea of sacred sexuality
and the 'two becoming one' came from. The Egyptian Cults of Isis and Oisiris, the bride and the
worship of the godess. Jesus was proficient at his sacred duty and the cult of celibacy is an inverted
perversion of a middle eastern religion that has nothing to do with the divinity of the Christ. The Churche's in
the west co-opted the issue, made him white and crucified him. The tropes that form the basis of the
western church provide a fairy tale that has nothing to do with the reality of people's lives, it is
symbolical embellishment of history to achieve control of the body to maximise control of the body which
is something those who deny it know in their hearts. Now, as to girls, no Irish Girl should be
brought up to believe that because she possesses a womb that her separate individuality is subject
to control and definition by her ability to carry another life. If she is in need of therapeutic abortion
because she is unable to carry another life then that is an issue between her and her medical
advisor and not anything to do with a church that is led by celibate men who show an unwonted
and unwelcome interest in the sexual functioning of Children and refuse to acknolwedge
their privacy and right to integrity as human beings.
Our daughters deserve the right to a full sexual life and privacy in their choice, not definition
and categorisation. Of course the success rate of those who hold the sanctity of the body above
all else sat and shamed a young girl into death beneath a holy statue of an idolised virgin
in Granard. Idolise the sacred female all you want, hold with the sanctity of the body and
bury women's sexuality because it is something to fear and loathe. Give me a break.
So YD defence is taking cash from the white supremacists now. Scotland/Belgium and North
america use the body to profit and have the biggest bio-tech and embroynic research facilities.
They make your money out of the woman's body.

by You Lose Fri Jul 13, 2007 18:15

"Size doesn't matter" why don't you put up a photo of yourself? Eh? There's plenty of pics available of the rally on the net and on You Tube. I was at the rally on Sat - it was such a success. Far better than anything I've seen the pro-abortion lot organise. FYI - RSF were not part of the rally They were havin a demo on the island on O'Connell st as the pro-life people were setting up and they left soon after they crowd started to swell. They didn't march with the rally people. Not that I care anyway, I think everyone who's against killing is entitled to be part of a pro-life event.

by Size doesn't matter Fri Jul 13, 2007 18:27

'formae nostrae pulchritudo deum fateur artificem... nihil in homine memborum est
quod non et necessitatis causa sit et decoris'-

etc.

I have better things to do with my time than provide the jerks at the life lobby
with images of my face or body- but sweet of you to ask. Plus its tedious to
watch the jumpy whistle blowing advocates of heterosexuality and missionary
making eejits of themselves on a saturday afternoon. Really am interested in
how on earth you get females to sign up to that kind of lifestyle?
...brainwashing or is it the high testosterone count of the young men??