DUP and Sinn Fein water charges u-turn

by Sharon. - Individual . Tue Apr 24, 2007 18:21

.....between a LH party and themselves !

Hi Patrick Henry !

They certainly 'whinge' louder and more often than other Leinster House political parties , but I suspect that is because most of their membership have not yet fully accepted that , in order to climb the constitutional ladder , it is often necessary for the party leadership to tell their members one thing whilst they set in motion a plan to do the opposite!
The Labour Party done that in this area a while ago in connection with the double bin tax : they had two local elected representatives (both councillors) at an anti-bin tax meeting , both of whom placed themselves on the platform , and both of whom were most vocal in their 'condemnation' of said tax . When prodded by people at the meeting , both admitted that they , themselves , were actually paying the double tax and were not calling , or instructing/recommending others not to pay it !
However , Labour Party members in this area never 'whinged' about the conduct of those two councillors because they have , apparently , come to expect nothing less from their 'leaders' .
Our friend 'drogen' and those like him will end up like that eventually . "In the best interests of the Party/State/Nation" / "for the good of the bigger picture" , of course!

Sharon .

by Patrick Henry Tue Apr 24, 2007 16:07

Why are members of $inn Fein constantly whingeing about people attacking their party because of the direction they have taken? Surely we all remember attacks on for example members of the SDLP and others who were the forerunners in the type of conformist politics now advocated by Provisional $inn Fein.
These attacks were not of the verbal kind like we read on these threads but were actual physical attacks on people and property driving the likes of Gerry Fitt from his home into exile. I am no apologist for the SDLP but I abhor the hypocrisy of $hinners like drogen who can't take their oil when astute contributors like Sharon point out that instead of taking us forward that in Fact $inn Fein have taken us into a cul-de-sac of a Government with no opposition. Some would call it a Dictatorship or a puppet Government.

I must add that I am not a member of RSF or any other grouping but it galls me to think that so many have died for something the SDLP had in the 70s.

by Sharon. - Individual Tue Apr 24, 2007 13:15

Hi drogen sulphide !

It IS 'new information' , for me , at least , to apparently learn that , whilst PSF was 'officially' describing the double bin tax as 'unfair ...unjust...' etc they never did get around to calling on their members (never mind their supporters!) to actually refuse to pay it !

'Sharon, we know how you feel about Sinn Féin.'
I support Sinn Fein .
It is the groups that left Sinn Fein ie Fianna Fail , Sinn Fein The Workers Party , Provisional Sinn Fein (to name but the prominent three) that fascinate me , politically , in relation to the u-turns and twists which they must perform to 'fit-in' with the so-called 'establishment' they once derided.

'There is no need to constantly clutter up the newswire with attacks on them. '
I have received no such complaint from the Administrative staff on this site , so I can only presume that they do not share your views regarding my posts allegedly "cluttering up" this newswire .

'We also know that you are very interested in Republican history.'
I think all republicans are , by default . Until , perhaps , they repeat the mistakes made in the past . Then it becomes an embarrassment to them !

' Perhaps, instted of telling us these two things over and over again, you could devote some energy to positive, constructive arguments about what your party actually wants, and how you expect to achieve it. '
Now that would involve a severe 'cluttering' of this newswire !
You can find that information here for yourself , if you really are interested......
http://www.rsf.ie/
......but I find it strange that you have been observing me , for a while , I presume, "cluttering-up" this Board whilst never once enquiring along these lines before now ? You wouldn't be trying to take this thread off on a tangent , would you ?
;-)

'For example, there is a major problem with housing in the 26 counties, what is your party doing about it? The health service in both juristictions is facing grave problems- what is your response? There is an election coming up for Leinster House- since you stood candidates in the recent Assembly elections in the north, maybe you could write an article on the approach you intend to take to the Dáil elections?'
See above link .
Also , feel free to contact the RSF Dublin Office (223 Parnell Street , Dublin 1) on 01-8729747 [fax 01-8729757] or e-mail said Office at saoirse@iol.ie . If you want similar details for the Belfast Office please say so on this thread and I will ensure you receive same. The volunteer staff in both Offices deal with such queries on a regular basis and should be able to answer your questions and/or point you in the right direction regarding those issues . Thanks!

'Do you think you could do that without mentioning Sinn Féin?'
Please note that I did not start this thread , and that I actually introduced the Labour Party into the equation on this thread . All political parties in Leinster House are 'fair game' , as far as I am concerned .

'Do you think that you could write an article on any subject, without mentioning Siinn Féin or events that happened before, say, the early 1990's?'
That would depend on the nature of that article!
However , if said article required the mentioning of 'Sinn Fein' and necessitated certain time-lines then , just to please you , don't ya know , I will leave those spaces blank !
Incidentally , if memory serves , I believe the consistency of drogen sulphide succumb's to the amount of temperature inflicted on it ? Much the same , perhaps , as when the temperature is raised on those who purport to support those of us who refuse to pay the double bin tax !
Nice talking with you , Sir , It was a welcome relief from the usual 'cut-and-thrust' engagements I normally find myself involved in on this and other sites . Thank You for that , at least !

Sharon.

by drogen sulphide Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:56

Sharon, we know how you feel about Sinn Féin. There is no need to constantly clutter up the newswire with attacks on them.

We also know that you are very interested in Republican history.

Perhaps, instted of telling us these two things over and over again, you could devote some energy to positive, constructive arguments about what your party actually wants, and how you expect to achieve it.

For example, there is a major problem with housing in the 26 counties, what is your party doing about it? The health service in both juristictions is facing grave problems- what is your response? There is an election coming up for Leinster House- since you stood candidates in the recent Assembly elections in the north, maybe you could write an article on the approach you intend to take to the Dáil elections?

Do you think you could do that without mentioning Sinn Féin? Do you think that you could write an article on any subject, without mentioning Siinn Féin or events that happened before, say, the early 1990's?

by Sharon. - Individual . Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:14

Hi again mad mak !

I disagree with you regarding the level of opposition put forward in relation to the double bin tax by PSF Head Office and their elected representatives : on occasion , members of that Party (following-on from the Party line regarding the issue) have been most vocal in their stated intention to consign said charge to the 'bin' -

http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/7589

http://www.sinnfein.ie/elections/manifesto/36

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/wsm/news/2002/bintaxSE....html

One of their Dublin councillors , a Mr Doolan , went so far as to declare - " This double tax must be scrapped immediately. "
(--From here : http://www.sinnfein.ie/gaelic/news/detail/7739)

Perhaps a PSF member (and/or councillor/Leinster House representative) will take this opportunity to state not only their continued opposition to the double bin tax but also recommend that people should refuse to pay same ?
And clarity regarding Mr Daly's actions in relation to this issue would also be appreciated .

Thank You ,

Sharon.

by More confusion Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:06

Sinn Fein claim in the South that they want to raise corporation tax to 17.5%

Yesterday RTE reported that all the parties in the North, with the support of Bertie, were lobbying the European Commission to allow the British Government to drop the Corporation tax rate in the North from 28% to 12.5%.

by mad mak Tue Apr 24, 2007 08:14

I think that in this issue you have hit the nail on the head. I am not sure whether SF really were that bothered about the issue but some members jumped on the issue an led the way. There was never to my knowledge an instruction (information from other threads) from SF to people not to pay and they merely stated their dissagreement with double taxation.

by Sharon. - Individual . Mon Apr 23, 2007 14:23

Hi mad mak !

'On Daly did he not get re elected easily even after his waste charges f**k up. So perhaps he does represent his community that elected him and perhaps they are not that bothered on waste charges.'

Perhaps the bigger question is does Mr Daly represent his Party on this particular issue (the double bin tax) ?
By which I mean is it acceptable to you , 'mad mak' , that a political party (PSF or Labour etc) should state , in print (party manifesto , website , leaflets , party newspaper etc) that they are opposed to - in this instance - the double bin tax , yet permit one (?) of its elected representatives to maintain not only his/her party membership , but a local authority seat as well , despite said representative not only having broken party rules by paying the double tax but , afterwards , recommending that others should 'pay up' as well ?

Is Mr. Daly's party leadership "not that bothered" over this issue , do you think ?

Sharon .

by mad mak Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:00

There is clearly no SF uturn on water charges but reading between the lines one suspects an increase in rates to pay for increased capitol costs. Quite sensible really. If you need services you generate the tax to pay for them.

On Daly did he not get re elected easily even after his waste charges f**k up. So perhaps he does represent his community that elected him and perhaps they are not that bothered on waste charges.

by Sharon . - Individual Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:30

Hi Mak !

"Daly was a disgrace and he was reprimanded for it. Several Sinn Féin members and supporters went to jail over the bin tax so don't come on here and pretend that Mark Daly somehow represents Sinn Féins policy when he quite clearly doesn't."

Mark Daly is a "disgrace" , Mak , not "was" a disgrace.
You say that Mr Daly was reprimanded for breaking the party line regarding the double bin tax - he should have been expelled from his party for doing so . Can other PSF elected representatives now 'break rank' on this and other issues , knowing that , although they will get a slap on the wrist for doing so, their seat and position within the Party is secure ?
In relation to Mr Daly 'not representing (P) Sinn Fein policy' on that issue : he most certainly does not represent that section of the electorate which voted for him due to his stated policy of opposition to that unfair tax . He should resign or be expelled from his Party for that u-turn .

Sharon .

by mak Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:51

Daly was a disgrace and he was reprimanded for it. Several Sinn Féin members and supporters went to jail over the bin tax so don't come on here and pretend that Mark Daly somehow represents Sinn Féins policy when he quite clearly doesn't.

As for Ha Ha how many more times will we have to listen to pathetic "dire" warnings from micro republicans. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. At least I have some respect for Sharon as she attempts to back up her arguments with a degree of analysis all you do is give dire warnings. I suggest you buy a sandwhich board and parade up and down the street with your "dire" warnings it would fit your sterotypical image.

by HA! HA! Tue Apr 03, 2007 19:18

NO, I think I'll stay and have a laugh at Gerry's puppet and clapping seal show. However you won't be laughing when the Brits withdraw funding for all the Sinn fein schemes once Stormonts up and running. Where will all the jobs for the boys come from then? HA! HA! I really can't wait.

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue Apr 03, 2007 19:17

Mak -

Read more like this -

" Waste Management -- Towards Zero Waste
The debate about waste management in Dublin during the last few years has been dominated by the issue of the Bin Charges. Sinn Féin opposed the Charges as an unjust form of double taxation that violated the principle of 'Polluter Pays'. The real polluters are the manufacturers of unnecessary packaging and big business. Household waste amounts to less than 10% of waste.

Our councillors and activists were in the forefront of opposing the Charges and members and supporters of Sinn Féin went to prison on principle rather than pay charges they saw as unjust........"

.......from here -
http://www.sinnfein.ie/elections/manifesto/36

....and compare it with this -
" (PSF Councillor) Mark Daly - He voted against the charge but like Labour councillors he pays his bin tax and called on others to do likewise. In a letter to the local paper in Tallaght he even said the bin tax was just like 'any other bill', this was when 7 people from South Dublin were in prison......."

....... from here -
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/64647

......then tell me you are still 'laughing' .

Sharon .

by mak Tue Apr 03, 2007 18:30

So here we have a story which all the pathetic micro republicans come on and give there usual garbled crap against SF. These are the same people who before the assembly elections predicted that SF were in trouble and that the micro republican candidates were offering a real alternative and what happened there?.
Here is a fact for you there has been NO U TURN. SF is against the water charges but please do keep on laughing your asses of it just makes you look even more mad than normal hopefully somebody will feel pity on you and take you off somewhere nice and quiet where you can laugh to yourself all day and night.

by HA! HA! Tue Apr 03, 2007 18:12

I have to agree with the point that the Unionists and Nationalists who voted for the Dup and Sinn fein in large numbers are to blame for everything these parties do to our economy.
I must say I had a quiet laugh when I read about the U Turn. No I didn't I laughed my b*lls off.

by Patrick Henry Tue Apr 03, 2007 16:04

Well the vast majority of people on both sides of the political divide put these parties in a position where they could implement these charges, so hell rub it up them, it's too late to start whinging now.

By the way they haven't even begun yet, just wait until they're in office for awhile then you'll really pay for your naivety. That's what you deserve for thinking that by voting on sectarian lines it would improve the way of lives for us Northern Irish.

The only thing you've unified is the corrupt politicians in the DUP and $inn Fein.

by Lemmy Tue Apr 03, 2007 14:48

Its obvious that MacLaughlin messed up here. But the new statement from him at least accepts that water charges wont be introduced.

Even if he wanted to he cant change SF policy on the hoof. SF are opposed to the water charges whther people like it or not, infact whether MacLaughlin likes it or not

by non-payer - We Won't Pay Campaign Tue Apr 03, 2007 14:23

We Won’t Pay Campaign reply to Mitchell McLaughlin

Gary Mulcahy, Secretary of the We Won’t Pay Campain replies to Mitchel McLaughlin.

“In Mitchel McLaughlin’s reply he claims that Sinn Fein’s position is clear. In fact what he says is completely unclear. There is no firm commitment in his reply to abolish water charges completely.

“The simple question remains, will the new Sinn Fein minister issue any form of water bills or not? All we ask is a clear commitment that the entire water charges agenda will be fully scrapped.

“Until we get that commitment we can only go by Mitchell McLaughlin’s comment :“If we separate out the legacy cost and we set in front of people the legitimate cost of running a clean and healthy water supply to people’s houses, people are fair minded, they will pay that.” In anybody’s language this means there will be bills delivered.”

UTV interview with Mitchell McLaughlin and Ian Paisley Jnr. http://u.tv/newsroom/onair.asp?q=hi&pt=&sdate=2/4/2007&f=0.4837719

by Media Whore Tue Apr 03, 2007 13:57

'I didn't say that, they edited it to make me say it'.

It's an old stand-by from politicians and it's as likely to be true now as water is to roll uphill.

Having said that, I think it's more likely to have been a fuck-up than anything else. SF are opposed to water charges (Though straddle the fence by saying they're opposed to non-payment) and campaigned on a position of opposing them. For McLaughlin to suddenly invert the position seemed odd. I reckon he messed up the interview and that's why the statement was sent out.

I don't think the Shinners have changed their position, but I didn't think their position was all that good to begin with.

by Paul - WP Tue Apr 03, 2007 13:44

It doesn't matter how UTV edited the clip - McLaughlin said what is quoted above in plain English. Don't go trying to say he didn't.

by SFWatch Tue Apr 03, 2007 13:38

Dismissing claims by the Won't Pay Campaign Secretary, Gary Mulcahy that Sinn Féin has announced the introduction of water charges through the Assembly, Mitchel McLaughlin MLA said:

"Firstly politicians have no control over how television producers edit pre-recorded interviews but I have to say that even in the interview referred to by Mr Mulcahy at no time did I say that the Assembly would introduce water charges.

"Sinn Féin's position is absolutely clear. We are opposed to people having to pay twice for any service. We have pointed out to the British government that we are already paying for water and sewage through the Regional rate. Sinn Féin will also lead the way in opposing any attempts to privatise our water service.

"Sinn Féin is adamant that the British government is responsible for the dire state of the water and sewage infrastructure because of their failure to invest money collected for this purpose through rates and they should provide the necessary finance to bring the system up to modern European standards." ENDS

http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/18508

by non-payer Tue Apr 03, 2007 13:30

According to Jamie Delargey UTV Sinn Fein say “consumers won’t mind paying the day-to-day running costs for water”.

Mitchell McLaughlin UTV Live 2nd April 2007
“If we separate out the legacy cost and we set in front of people the legitimate cost of running a clean and healthy water supply to people’s houses, people are fair minded, they will pay that.”

Ian Paisley Jnr. UTV Live 2nd April 2007
“We’re currently negotiating a financial package with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I’ve been intimately involved in those negotiations and our intention is to get sufficient resources to invest in capital works programmes so as the general public do not have to pay for a lack of investment over the last 30 years.”

by Boyle Tue Apr 03, 2007 09:53

Let's not get too up tight here. The campaign has been a success and now with the right pressure we can push this to a just conclusion. The water charges we all know were to pay for the upgrading of the service before it was privatised. Our main argument was that we already had paid, and were paying through our rates so we wouldn't be paying twice etc etc. We from what I took from the press statements yesterday, agrument (1) was conceded we shouldn't be asked to pay for the upgrading. So now the next question is how does the assembly expect the running costs to be met? Having won the first argument now is the time to keep up the pressure on our second point that as we were already paying for the water service through our regional rate then nothing basically has to change. With an itemised rates bill we could keep a tab on them not to push the charges through the backdoor so to speak. Also Crystal alliance can be kicked into touch. The other point we need to keep the pressure on is for the assembly to guarantee that the service will not be privatised.

by radical jonny Tue Apr 03, 2007 09:30

It was only a matter of time. But even the most cynical political onlooker was probably taken aback by the sheer speed of the U-turn. Same old same old, eh?

It now is all the more imperative to build the anti-water charges grassroots campaign. It should be blatently clear to everyone by now that no one's going to do it but us.

It won't be easy. Now that the parties are beginning in earnest the rhetoric that paying for water is not just necessary but simple common sense, it will be all the more difficult to get people on board. The death of it will be only getting out the 'usual suspects' at rallies (WP, SP, SWP, Greens, and everybody else that nobody voted for). People join movements when they see themselves reflected in it.

So let's not kid ourselves: everything just got a whole lot more difficult. But it's still possible.

Here we go...

by Paul - Workers' Party Tue Apr 03, 2007 06:50 www.workerspartyireland.net

You have to let the first video run to the end - or advance it manually with the slider button and then go quarter way into the second video which starts automatically once the first ends.

Mitchell McLaughlin (Sinn Féin) also said: "If we separate out the legacy cost and set before people the legitimate cost of providing the water service, people are fair-minded, they will pay that". In other words Sinn Féin only object to people being charged for the cost of modernising the system, they are quite happy for water charges to be imposed upon people.

This u-turn now breaks the record made by Brian Cowen after the last election in the south about public expenditure. The DUP line from Ian Paisley Jr was almost a mirror image of McLaughlin's.

by SP Member Mon Apr 02, 2007 23:47

The link provided works

You have to let it run to the end and then it starts the second part of the news bulletin. The interview with McLoughlin is about a quarter the way in.

For those who think this is an april fool here is what McLoughlin said (paraphrased):

'It costs money to run the water service and people are aware of that. When we show people the actual cost of the everyday running of the water service, people will be reasonable and will be willing to pay'.

And it will be a SF minister that implements the charges!

by Frankie Roberts Mon Apr 02, 2007 23:22

Looks like this a made up story. You were a day late with your april fools story.

by Howdy Mon Apr 02, 2007 22:59

Has anyone got a proper link to these alleged comments? I cant find it at the UTV site?

by historian Mon Apr 02, 2007 22:05

Are the DUP and SF putting in for a Guinness Book of Records entry, fastest turn-round of position!!

Last week, at least the DUP were against it, SF less clear, now they've moved onto saying we're all going to pay for the water.

I've news for them both, I'll not be paying, and I'll not be alone.

Like Mr Adams said of a different group, the We Won't Pay campaign 'hasn't gone away you know' and neither have thousands of pissed of voters.

by Chris Mon Apr 02, 2007 22:03

Our politicians lied to us yet again... shocking news!