Northern Ireland Civil Service Pay Dispute

by uncivil servant supporter Wed Apr 05, 2006 15:32

TFC electioneering again, here I explain the difference between TFC and Uncivil Servant

“Uncivil Servant” believes that the union needs to be built up from the bottom, through the rank and file, the ordinary members. If we can turn thousands of members into activists, it doesn’t really matter who runs General Council or CSGE, because it will be easy for the aware membership to call for action. We stand for election because we realise the need to have influence on these bodies, but awakening the membership is more important than simply winning seats on these bodies.

“Time for Change” believes winning elections is more important, once you win control of the executive you can then awaken the membership. Unfortunately this does not work, as last years industrial action clearly demonstrated, in the wake of a period when “Time for Change” had a majority on CSGE. Unfortunately during this time they made no effort to activate the membership, especially at Stormont. It’s not much use being the leader, if there is no-one to lead, so at present it doesn’t matter whether the right or left control the governing bodies.

by the boy away from home Wed Apr 05, 2006 16:01

So the uncivil servant is advocating allowing the right wing into power within NIPSA, does not say much for them does it. Like the piece from TFC says above its about getting the members to have confidence in you. you can only do that by supporting them and telling them what you will do for them if elected. Didn’t see uncivil servant out at any of the protests recently, workplace 2010, pension strike, water charges. Where are you……….? come to think I have seen you out for sometime now…. Where are you………..? gone dead and turned to dust I think.

by stroppy Thu Apr 06, 2006 01:16

It really is time for TFC to stop spouting empty rhetoric in their repetitive bulletin, about the need to fight. It is the worst type of infantilism as most of them come from areas where the Management use the worst kind of bullying tactics and get away with it. Their hijacking of the Workplace 2010 issue is a case in point particularly as it has taken them six months to wake up to the issue. When a 'right-winger'was taking the fight to the Stormont estate several months ago on 2010 the bar room lawyers of TFC were nowhere to be seen.
The defamatory remarks about the pay campaign being smothered in areas are a disgrace particularly as they are a thinly veiled reference to areas which were the backbone of the previous years industrial action. A lack of evidence is obviously no bar to the TFC group maligning comrades. Have the balls to name the areas and let the members there have a chance to refute the slander.
It is a bit rich for TFC to go off on one on pay in any case, as they are all over the place on the issue. I understand that having argued last year that the world would end if there was anything other than all out strike action this year, leading members of the group at the Civil Serrvice Group Executive argued that there should have been a rolling action and wait for it selective action this year. The rumour is that an ex President with a close insight into the fighting mentality of TFC banged her head off the table in sheer embarrassment at this total about face.
It is a pity that not all the TFC paper was reproduced on this thread A notable ommission from the paper is the part where they proudly proclaim that they have fought against Civil Service pay. Peter Hain would be proud of them.

by A - NIPSA TFC Thu Apr 06, 2006 02:32 tfc.nipsa at ntlworld dot com

One of the difficulties in NIPSA over the last number of years has been the division on the left. Both TFC and Uncivil Servant declare themselves to be on the left but operate as separate groups. This can only have helped NIPSA’s right wing to maintain their grip on the union. TFC does not believe that the division is necessary and would like to see the left groups working together.

On the points in Uncivil Servants comment.

As far as I am aware TFC has never held a majority on the CSGE (could be wrong).

During this years pay dispute TFC had eight on the CSGE. Uncivil Servant had 2 on. The CSGE has a total of 25 members so neither TFC nor the combined left had a majority.

Uncivil Servant attributes a position to TFC which it does not hold. TFC is quite clear, elections to the leading bodies of the union, branch committees, departmental committees and executives are all very important, . Likewise, a union is only able to deliver when based on an active membership and a wide layer of activists on the ground, for TFC it is vitally important that this level of activity is built.

To Stroppy

How has TFC hijacked Workplace 2010?

Stroppy says

“It is a pity that not all the TFC paper was reproduced on this thread A notable ommission from the paper is the part where they proudly proclaim that they have fought against Civil Service pay. Peter Hain would be proud of them”

An excellent bit of spell checking but I can’t find it in my copy of the latest TFC bulletin (April). Is that the one you are refering to. If so perhaps you could quote the complete sentence?

by Rogue Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:40

As a NIPSA member for over 10 years I have throw my hat in the ring with TFC. From what I have seen there seem to be two types of activists in the Union. TFC know what they stand for, have clear ideas on what is the best way for NIPSA to serve its membership. And also and this is the most important part. TFC are prepared to do something about it. They put in the hours,do the work, organise meetings, put out information, mobilise support etc.
The other type of "activist" seem to content themselves sniping from the sidelines or trying to pour cold water on any type of initiative. They seem very good at pointing out what is wrong with other activists while never doing anything constructive themselves.

by pat c Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:46

This is very much related to the internal politics of NIPSA. Only members of NIPSA can really do anything about the issues in question. I honestly cannot see Left Unity in NIPSA is going to be progressed in a forum where anyone can throw their opinion in. Some of the contributions will inevitably be from Trolls.

by V Thu Apr 06, 2006 13:25

There are a number of good points from all above. However the main thing that strikes me is that for a "rank and file" organisation such as the (where are they now) Uncivil Servant to not show up anywhere where there are NIPSA members protesting at anytime for the last 3 or 4 months is laughable. The only time I have seen them was at the Postal Workers rally, while this is abmirable, it is NIPSA they are supposed to unite. This leads me to believe that the key members only want to turn up when there is a TV camera about. They did not turn up to Workplace 2010 rally, water charges rally, Equal pay for women rally at hollywood arches. these are all NIPSa events which they were all aware of as the circulars all went out to advertise them. They are more interested in surrounding themselves with their SWP cohorts and preaching that they are not political, but if you see the uncivil servant out and about, I can guarantee the SWP will be there selling papers to people who are on strike and have little money. People on strike do not need to be told what they are on strike for, so please stop letting on that you are helping the working classes in struggle, we all know this is blatent advertising of a sinking ship (much like the Uncivil). Now they (the uncivil) do not even produce an issue for the NIPSA General Council elections, and before they come back with "we are not an electioneering group", for the reasons above you don't actually appear to be any sort of group. NIPSA is crying out for a rank and file movement that will unite all members whether they be "left", "right" or in the middle, that means not sniping from the sidelines at all and sundry as it is fellow NIPSA members that you are sniping at. To be honest the Uncivil has not built on its success at last years conference and from what I hear they are going to get absolutely chinned at conference this year. but they have only themselves to blame as as soon as you let egos and the SWP start to run things then you can bet the game is up. Look forward to hearing the Uncivil's reply, if they have anyone left to write it.

by Five Thu Apr 06, 2006 19:32

Glad to see stroppy come back for more sniping towards the left, glad to see your armchair has not gone because of Workplace 2010. Did you attend NIPSA Branch 60’s protest at SIB, how did TFC hijack workplace 2010, if they did it would not be going ahead. It showed the SIB onlookers that NIPSA have them in their sights.

OK the Big Man was there up at stormont, yes the so called Right Winger I believe he is a leftie at heart its those around him pulling him to the dark side. Be strong in your old age. But what else did he do about it. Did he tell the members he was up there and that we should have all went and hammered home that the civil service is not for sale. I am sure the Uncivil Servant is planning something to unite the members on this.

by Ghostbuster - Ghostbusters Thu Apr 06, 2006 19:57

If you think the Uncivil has anything planned I would think again five me old mate, The Uncivil are no doubt busy in consultation with the TV and Radio to find out where the cameras and recorders are next. V has it right when he says this bunch are SWP led. There is more chance of seeing Lord Lucan at a NIPSA rally than the Uncivil. I am surprised I didn't see them up at the closure of Adria today once again confusing being on TV with building a "rank and file" within NIPSA.

They actually remind me of posh and becks a bit, plenty of front but not much content.

by V Thu Apr 06, 2006 21:37

Good point ghostbuster although not very eloquently put. I saw the Uncivil once during the whole runup to the strike vote and that was at a Branch Activists meeting in Belfast. What they have failed to realise is their target audience, i.e. by handing out leaflets to Branch activists you compound the fact that you don't know who exactly you are trying to reach. It is the ordinairy membership e.g. the workers and not (for want of a better phrase) the "clued up union activist" that you should be trying to reach although obviously they need to be part of the revolution. However the Uncivil Servant revolution which started so well now seems to be lying choking in the dust. How envious they must have felt when a recent article in the Telegraph talked at length about the two factions within NIPSA, TFC and RTU, not a mention of the upstart Uncivil.

Ah well I will leave you with the thought that the strike vote was only lost because some poeple did not put the leg work in and I blame those people for the loss. I put in more than my share and I add that although I am not in any of the factions, TFC were the only ever visible. And please do not accuse me of having a foot in their camp either as I have no liking for the SP either, its just that at least they are not quite as hypocritical as the SWP.

by A - NIPSA TFC Thu Apr 06, 2006 22:12 tfc.nipsa at ntlworld dot com

In my view V is wrong in his assessment of US during the civil service pay dispute. As far as I know the US members on the CSGE spoke at a number of members meetings and helped to organise others. They worked hard to get the vote out during that period. I am not aware of any leafleting by US but that does not mean that it did not happen.
As for TFC activists I believe that they did more than their share during the run up to the ballot.

The differences between the two groups is not sufficient to justify a divided left the only outcome for this division is that the right have been able to maintain control of key areas of the union with disastrous results and members paying a very heavy price.

Efforts to achieve at least a good working relationship between TFC and US on key issues have been made but have so far failed to take root.

by insider Thu Apr 06, 2006 23:58

Young Blood, those you spoke off from the CSGE from Uncivil, maybe those ones are no longer apart of Uncivil, well I know they are not....... you see Ghostbuster has hit the nail on the head. Uncivil did nothing I know this as fact. they pretented to do something, one leaflet at an "ACTIVISTS" meeting does not mean they did their fair share. TFC did and fair play to them. Fair play to those on fighting for members.

Welcome back V long time no see, remember this and no more. workers should not be fearful of their employers, employers should fear their workers..................

good night

by John SMith Fri Apr 07, 2006 00:25

its like this, the SWP control Uncivil. its been documented in a july edition of some SWP publication by Rory Hearne now, tell me thats not true.

its true its true its damn true.

Uncivil and TFC could never work together, you know that and i know that. the fact of the matter is, we need someone or something to unite the left. who will do that?????? Stroppy can. stroppy for Prez, how about it Amanda thats what you want isn't it. come on you know the truth...... you cant see me........

by stroppy Fri Apr 07, 2006 00:51

Five I have no idea who the Big Man is. A protest was held last November at Stormont led by the 'Big Woman' protesting against the sell off of the Stormont Estate and highlighting the dangers of Workplace 2010. As far as I am aware the protest was not kept a secret. I understand a leading SP and TFC member, who is not even in the Civil Service, attended this weeks meeting on 2010 shouting the odds. I think thats hijacking a cause to get a bit of publicity ,admittedly for the SP and not TFC, but it is several months too late. The recent spurt of action by NIPSA HQ on 2010 only came about after sustained complaints about inaction from so called right wing Branches.
Pat C is correct about Left unity not being served on this medium. However part of the problem is in the labelling of people active in Left politics for many years as right wing by whoever writes the TFC bulletin. Just because you mention the words fight and campaign dozens of times in a bulletin does not make you left wing. Half the TFC hangers on wouldnt know their arse from their Engels.
A It is indeed the April bulletin to which I refer . Dont have a copy in front of me but it said TFC have fought against Workplace 2010, Civil Service pay, etc etc. Now most members I know support CS pay it is the failure to deal with low pay and to pay cost of living increases that is the problem.
Hopefully I have answered all questions it would be nice if the editor of the TFC bulletin could let us know who the smothering branches are.

by stroppy Fri Apr 07, 2006 01:07

John SMith ? I rather suspect you are a besuited ex supporter of working overtime during industrial action. You are much too kind about my ability to unite the left I fear the guiding hand of the Leaders from outside would thwart the formation of such a symbiotic entity. I am also too modest to go for Prez particularly given the understated eloquence of the current incumbent .

by the rank and file - nipsa Fri Apr 07, 2006 03:51

why the left is out of touch with members
The left has no justifiable grounds for acting on behalf of the "rank and file" as most members do not share their views on a wide range of issues.
The "rank and file" will NEVER allow themselves to be hoodwinked and manipulated by a bunch of extremist ideologues whose agenda goes a lot further than securing a decent income for members ,or fighting privatisation.
Branches can and will be made stronger when activists focus on what members actually want the union to achieve and (hopefully) future CSEC'S and General Councils will consist of people more in touch with reality and all the marxist rhetoric will finally be consigned to the proverbial "dustbin of history" together with all the mind-controlling political correctness which has become the left's favoured weapon these days.
Civil Servants don't need TFC ,US or any unrepresentative grouping associated with the oppressive and bloodthirsty ideology of communism to fight against the injustice of low pay,water charges or privatisation.We do however need the commitment and dedication of individuals prepared to stand up for the principle of a properly funded and efficient public service and decent rates of pay.
I don't expect my viewpoint to win me many friends on this site,but I merely wish to point out to all these groups that they are doing nothing constructive to help those they claim to represent by trying to push nipsa in a more leftward direction and thereby alienating the vast majority of civil and public servants.
There is clearly a real problem with so many inactive branches and so much apathy in the face of the government's so-called reforms,but the left has no solutions,just empty rhetoric and a chronic inability to understand what anyone wants but themselves.
The trotskyite sects are also disingenuous in portraying their "founding father" as some sort of egailitarian peace-loving hippy,when history tells us he was in fact a ruthless tyrant
Im just glad that none of his followers has a realistic chance of attaining anyl political power.Wore betide us all if they did.New Labour are bad enough and becoming more oppressive and dictatorial by the day,but if we had a SP or SWP government(you wish lol) we'd have no freedom of speech(or any other kind) and the economy would be in ruins(although it's heading that way anyway with globalisation).
Real democracy and a less "capital P" political union is the only way forward.I have no objections to individual socialists,liberals,conservatives or whatever standing for any office as long as they leave their personal politics at the door and work for the common good of the members

by A - NIPSA TFC Fri Apr 07, 2006 09:56 tfc.nipsa at ntlworld dot com

Workplace 2010

The vast majority of readers of Indymedia will not have heard of Workplace 2010, it is the governments attempt to privatise civil service buildings and along with them the staff who service them.

Stroppy is quite right, a protest was called over the issue in November but it is fair to say that for what ever reason very few NIPSA members where aware of it.

It is not clear why this issue was not acted on earlier by NIPSA centrally but the Workplace 2010 process has gone a long way already without meaningful resistance. It was not TFC activists who highlighted the problem of NIPSA not acting on Workplace 2010. The issue was highlighted by activists outside TFC (I would not necessarily count them amongst NIPSA right wing). TFC like the rest of NIPSA members where largely unaware of the details of this development but when TFC activists became aware of the situation we got stuck in. If we had not done so there would have been questions to be answered.

Stroppy says

‘I understand a leading SP and TFC member, who is not even in the Civil Service, attended this weeks meeting on 2010 shouting the odds.’

There where two Workplace 2010 meetings held, one in Stormont and one in Belfast City Centre (I was at the Stormont meeting) as far as I am aware only Civil Service members from NIPSA attended and spoke at the meetings.
I am sure that even if a member of NIPSA was from outside the civil service they would have been very welcome.

Stroppy also says

‘It is indeed the April bulletin to which I refer . Dont have a copy in front of me but it said TFC have fought against Workplace 2010, Civil Service pay, etc etc.’

I take it you are referring to the paragraph which actually says,

‘In the recent past we have played a key role in, the fight against Workplace 2010, Civil Service pay, resistance to education cuts, defence of pensions and opposition to water charges.’

Unless I am mistaken stroppy has misunderstood the paragraph.

On left unity

Clearly TFC and US have differences but these should not be exaggerated. From a TFC point of view we acknowledge that US activists played a good role in the civil service pay campaign and in general they wish to get stuck into the employers. Many of the points of difference seem to me to be misunderstandings of position rather than real differences. There is an urgent need to unify the left, a unified left should not just include TFC and US but also people who are not yet involved in any group.

by A - NIPSA TFC Fri Apr 07, 2006 09:57 tfc.nipsa at ntlworld dot com

Workplace 2010

The vast majority of readers of Indymedia will not have heard of Workplace 2010, it is the governments attempt to privatise civil service buildings and along with them the staff who service them.

Stroppy is quite right, a protest was called over the issue in November but it is fair to say that for what ever reason very few NIPSA members where aware of it.

It is not clear why this issue was not acted on earlier by NIPSA centrally but the Workplace 2010 process has gone a long way already without meaningful resistance. It was not TFC activists who highlighted the problem of NIPSA not acting on Workplace 2010. The issue was highlighted by activists outside TFC (I would not necessarily count them amongst NIPSA right wing). TFC like the rest of NIPSA members where largely unaware of the details of this development but when TFC activists became aware of the situation we got stuck in. If we had not done so there would have been questions to be answered.

Stroppy says

‘I understand a leading SP and TFC member, who is not even in the Civil Service, attended this weeks meeting on 2010 shouting the odds.’

There where two Workplace 2010 meetings held, one in Stormont and one in Belfast City Centre (I was at the Stormont meeting) as far as I am aware only Civil Service members from NIPSA attended and spoke at the meetings.
I am sure that even if a member of NIPSA was from outside the civil service they would have been very welcome.

Stroppy also says

‘It is indeed the April bulletin to which I refer . Dont have a copy in front of me but it said TFC have fought against Workplace 2010, Civil Service pay, etc etc.’

I take it you are referring to the paragraph which actually says,

‘In the recent past we have played a key role in, the fight against Workplace 2010, Civil Service pay, resistance to education cuts, defence of pensions and opposition to water charges.’

Unless I am mistaken stroppy has misunderstood the paragraph.

On left unity

Clearly TFC and US have differences but these should not be exaggerated. From a TFC point of view we acknowledge that US activists played a good role in the civil service pay campaign and in general they wish to get stuck into the employers. Many of the points of difference seem to me to be misunderstandings of position rather than real differences. There is an urgent need to unify the left, a unified left should not just include TFC and US but also people who are not yet involved in any group.

by Rogue Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:10

I'm not quite sure what crime Rank and file is accusing TFC of. If it's fighting for better terms and conditions, fighting privatisation and job losses, unjust water charges, racism, bullying, harrassment, sectarianism. Then I guess TFC is guilty. As for claiming to speak for any anybody. TFC is completely open about its ideaology and its core values. If you agree with them, TFC won't speak for you, It will give you the oppertunity to speak for yourself.

by Reality Check Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:09

Stroppy said
"Their (TFC)hijacking of the Workplace 2010 issue is a case in point particularly as it has taken them six months to wake up to the issue. When a 'right-winger'was taking the fight to the Stormont estate several months ago on 2010 the bar room lawyers of TFC were nowhere to be seen."

Stroppy is partially right. TFC were not present at the protest several months ago, but then, unfortunately, nor were the members on the estate. Its not worth having a protest unless the members involved are mobilised to be there.

As for TFC hijacking the issue. Is Stroppy saying that he knew 6 months ago, the full impact of Workplace 2010. If so, he was in a minority. The vast majority of NIPSA members, and even the majority of the CSEC, only became aware in February that members jobs were to be privatised. If those who knew about it 6 months ago did absolutely nothing about it then how can Stroppy claim that TFC hijacked the issue. How did they hijack it? Did they hijack the campaign against it when, in fact, there was no campaign against it?

Lets have a reality check. Those who knew what was happening did nothing about it. On the other hand, TFC did do something about it as soon as they became aware of it.

by John Smith Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:36

sorry to disappoint you Stroppy but i have never supported overtime during industrail action, I think that was the US, which i am not apart of nor never been apart of. But you are right about the SP being down in Belfast, And if you are right about TFC inactions over the last 6 months then you are correct they are hijacking this campaign, but at least they have started. I was there in belfast, it was the first protest that i was informed about, if i knew one was taking place back in November, you bet i would have been there.

I think too much credit has been given to the US on the pay issue.

by Red Robbo - Ageing Young Turk Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:49

My favourite tease of the ultra left is that whilst they may recognise that something works in "practice", they continue to question whether it works in "theory." This "debate" seems to be about how many Engels can dance on the head of a pin. (with apologies to Stroppy).

We should be making intelligent interventions on the details of the outworking of New Labour policy here and exposing the shameless role played by the unelected Strategic Investment Board in the wholescale Privatisation of public services. NIPSA is uniquely placed to defend the common interests of pubic sector workers and the interests of the public, because of its unique reach across all areas in NI. It is in possession of particular information on PPP/PFI in different sectors, not least in Education where schools are most affected. You wouldn't know it though because it doesn't punch its weight either publicly or privately. Its internal "News" paper comes out months after issues have been raised and has famously carried things like book reviews during the Pay dispute, surely displacing other more worthy material.

However this is likely to continue unchallenged, not least because NIPSA is riven by an egotistical and self serving "permanent revolution" to gain "control" of the union. And then what? Well more placards probably. In the meantime the real right wing watch the paper tigers shitting in their own nest.

by the dilettante Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:56

So where do we begin to build a united union, with all this bickering how can we get NIPSA back on track,
if you let it Stroppy, this workplace 2010 can get both the right wing (as you state started it) and the left (who have jumped on board and taken over) working together to (wait for it) serve the members (or have we all forgotten about them) Maybe its time for someone else to take the helm and fight for us workers, like stated above. employers should fear their workers. well how about it, why don't we start making them fear doing such things as giving us a crap pay rise, stop them from selling the civil service. (eHR, workplace 2010) whats next?

by A - NIPSA TFC Fri Apr 07, 2006 14:17 tfc.nipsa at ntlworld dot com

John

Of course there have been SP members at these meetings but what stroppy was saying was

‘I understand a leading SP and TFC member, who is not even in the Civil Service, attended this weeks meeting on 2010 shouting the odds’

This is not true, there was not a non civil servant SP member at either of the meetings held on the Workplace 2010 issue but if there had been what would have been the problem?

Is it possible that you and stroppy are referring to the Branch 60 protest rather than the meetings?

On the issue of inaction on Workplace 2010

There is a serious issue of why members of NIPSA, branch activists and members of the CSGE did not know about the extent of Workplace 2010. TFC most defiantly where not aware of the details. Questions have to be asked as to why this information never got out!

As far as TFC hijacking an issue is concerned, I think TFC activists reacted correctly by putting as much into this issue as possible as soon as they became aware of it, there a hundreds of jobs at risk and every member of this union should fight to protect them. Also TFC has no intention of detracting from the work of other on this issue.

It is worth pointing out that TFC activists have been consistently working on privatisation issues across the union, in this particular case TFC like everyone else did not have the information to act on until recently.

A final point on Workplace 2010 that has to be made is that to win this struggle a concerted campaign by the NIPSA members involved is needed. That campaign has only just begun and everyone from NIPSA using this site should be making every effort to make sure it develops further.

On the question of US activity on pay I am only stating the case as I know it I do not have first hand knowledge of US activity but certainly their members on the CSGE acquitted themselves well.

Red Robbo makes a fair point on the nature of NIPSA News, it is a magazine that comes out infrequently and is not aimed at dealing with the key issues facing members. This has been brought up many times but NIPSA has not as yet moved on the problem, an election will take place at this years annual conference for a NIPSA News editorial board, hopefully this will provide the leaver for change.

On PPP in education, quite extensive work has been done on this, a number of protests have been held involving NIPSA and UNISON members (including CS NIPSA members who give their support), industrial action agreed, wide spread publicity generated and the government has been forced into a partial retreat on the issue. A short time ago Hain was forced to announce that 7,000 Cleaners would no longer be included in PPP contracts. This was a partial victory but by no means a final outcome to the issue but never the less a significant step forward.

by The Real V Fri Apr 07, 2006 14:46

Maybe it is time for an uprising, well I put forward my declaration of war.

There is going to be shocking revelations very soon within NIPSA, those that want to be the Champion of the Underdog, will be no more that club to beat the oppressors with.

Seeing that in exactly 116 days all civil servant should be getting a pay rise, well I say that in 116 days if no deal has been made we should show our employer that we will no longer accept this shoddy treatment and that we will strike.

We will strike like it has never been seen before. From this day to that, we will take our fate into our own hands. Time for talking has finished its action that counts. Standing United as ONE our employer will be powerless to do anything else but to give us decent living wages.

We have 116 days to build and get the membership back on board, Stroppy are you with me? A (TFC) are you prepared to work with me?, V will you come along for the ride?, Ghostbuster, want to do some busting?, John Smith, do you wanna bring the A team along? Pat C, I extend the hand of friendship across the boarder.

A- TFC yes the protest at SIB, a SP member from Education was shouting the odds..

by A - NIPSA TFC Fri Apr 07, 2006 15:45 tfc.nipsa at ntlworld dot com

The pay issue in the civil service has not gone away. In my view it will explode in to a major fight at some point, this is something that NIPSA has to get ready for. In the mean time a whole number of other battles are opening up. Everyone should be engaging in these battles and building the branches.

Thank god you clarified the issue of an SP member speaking at the protest. At least everyone will now be talking about the same thing. The non civil service SP members who spoke at the rally was there to make the point that Cleaners in education had forced the government to retreat from including them in PPPs. This was something that the members threatened by Workplace 20210 needed to hear, like the cleaners they have been told that nothing can be done to get them out of been privatised.

It is also worth mentioning that everyone else at the protest was offered the opportunity to speak, three times in fact!

by ghostbuster - Ghostbusters Fri Apr 07, 2006 16:45

A - you do put too much emphasis on what the Uncivil did during the push for a strike ballot. You almost sound as if TFC needs to unite with them. They don't, the US is nothing and will never be anything. The fact is that there will never be a united left for the following reasons

1. The SP and SWP can never work together, that is why they should be purged entirely, you both have socialist in your names but your aims appear to be totally different. Come the revolution you will both be out in the cold

2. While I acknowledge the role of TFC in the run up to the ballot, the Uncivil sat around discussing strategy until they virtually combusted through inaction. They are far too arrogant to try to unite the left, yet they wish to build a rank and file. Is this a rank and file consisting of only people they like or choose, or perhaps you must be in the SWP to be in the "rank and file". Whatever you can be assured that the Uncivil Servant will never make any difference as they have no direction whatsoever. They have no ambition except to snipe at those who did all the work on their behalf during the run up to strike ballot and now they will crucify the CSGE at NIPSA conference for their mistakes without being able to name those mistakes. We will have the usual rhetoric dressed up to make us think they give a damn when in fact they are like a clapped out pantomime horse drowning in a sea of apathy. They have no idea of what it is to strike a blow for the working class as they are too busy advertising for the SWP who are all middle class reactionaries and liberals.

Uniting the left is a grand idea but we must unite the entire membership and cut out the dead wood although there will still be a place for these people.

TFC are average, RTU are cadaverous and almost extinct and the US, well they are just moribund to the extreme.

Good hunting people, see you soon.

by amanda allaway Fri Apr 07, 2006 17:00

Lets get a few things straight-

It is indeed true that a protest was organised by me to picket the SIB and the Senior Civil service at a meeting to promote WP2010 at Stormont - this was organised on behalf of the NIPSA DFP Departmental Committee because it is members in DFP who are in the frontline of losing their jobs at this moment because of the two pilot WP2010 projects - we found out about the meeting a few days beforehand and details of the protest were emailed to members of the civil service group executive committee and their support was asked for - in the event aside from myself and members of the DFP Departmental Committee, one executive committee member turned up along with an official. I subsequently sought coverage in the NIPSA news of this picket to raise awareness about WP2010 to no avail.

One of the reasons why I was instructed by the DFP Departmental Committee to organise the picket was because of the concerns of DFP members that the issue of WP2010 was not getting enough priority from NIPSA - as far as they were concerned the union was concentrating solely on civil service pay and everything was thrown into that campaign (I'm not not going to get bogged down with that debate here).

As a former member of the executive committee and General Council ( I have resigned as both Vice Chair of the Civil Service Group Executive and the General Council in protest at the lack of action by NIPSA on issues such as WP2010) I have raised the issue of WP2010 at every meeting for the last year - I put forward a motion of "non co-operation" over WP2010 in October last year in desperation to get something done - this was unanimously endorsed by the committee - if you go back and check NIPSA bulletins you will see that this was advised to members at the time. I provided the draft for the NIPSA response to the public consultation document on the sell off of stormont estate because everyone else was too busy with the pay campaign to do it. I have circulated many, many articles, documents and letters to both civil service group members (including TFC members) seconded and HQ Officials on the issue highlighting how we in DFP were trying to stop WP2010. However despite the issue being raised at every meeting and members of the executive being warned by me, and others, that Wp2010 would result in privatisation not only of buildings but also jobs, no real action was taken - hence my resignation in February.

I am amused then angered by TFC's attempts to claim they didn't know about WP2010! The Chairperson of the Civil service group is a leading member of TFC, the NIPSA President is a TFC member, TFC has members on the Central Whitley Committee that deals with WP2010 who attended meetings that I was at when I was doing my damnedest to challenge this PFI project. TFC candidates stated in their manifestos for the recent general council election that they would fight workplace 2010 - if they didn't know what workplace 2010 was about what was it they thought they were fighting and why wait until now to start ???

Because of the lack of action on this issue by NIPSA the DFP Departmental Committee has taken matters into its own hands - we organised the picket, gatecrashed events were SIB members were espousing the wonders of WP2010, used FREEDOM OF INFORMATION to get at documents, challenged the costs of consultants and have begun engaging directly with the political parties and local councillors about this issue - So please no more rhetoric about how TFC is leading the charge on wp2010 - you woke up to it too late, realised that you had dropped the ball and that the members would want to know why NIPSA had done nothing - one protest does not a campaign make!

I have no doubt TFC will seek to sweep aside my views on this matter because I'm the right wing bureaucrat they all love to snipe at - frankly I couldn't give a toss any more in their petty political ramblings - they have dropped the ball big time and they know it - if they have the balls for it I'll attend any meeting to discuss publicly what they have been doing for the last year on this issue!

by NIPSA REP Fri Apr 07, 2006 17:47

So there we have it Ladies and Gentlemen, the line in the sand has been drawn, I believe this topic was about pay, however some of you want to drag it off topic, ok but its 116 days till the next pay award should be implemented, what are we going to do. Amanda I am not trying to dismiss your comments on Workplace 2010. If what you say is true, it is a disgrace that NIPSA’s governing bodies did nothing, however I do not believe that resigning from these bodies is doing the members any justice, I see that you have been re-elected to General Council, will you be taking the post up. (just a side comment, if you are “right wing” as stated above, why would you be involved in a Union) I am glad you have the conviction to post here under your real name and call them out. Sadly as you know they will sweep away your comments and pretend it didn’t happen.

I must say being a “clued up union member” I was unaware of any protest before the one on the 29 March, which I attended, that’s not a dig at you Ms Allaway but it’s the General Councils fault they have done our members an injustice and should all be ashamed of themselves

by s Fri Apr 07, 2006 17:50

"the SWP who are all middle class".
ha ha i love it when people do this, SP are middle class, SWP are middle class. its areally easy way to show how BAD lefties are. They have nothing to do with workers because they are all middle class. I think they are also focusing on building a rank and file group within the federation of small buisnesses, because they must be all members seen as they are all middle class. Its funny how these groups have set up rank and file groups within they have no workers, cause they are mddle class.
What nonsense. Show me proof. Oh no u cant cause ur talking out your arse.
They are "liberal reactionaries".
ill leave that one for now, you probably just thought it sounded good so you put it.

by s Fri Apr 07, 2006 17:52

oh yeah and change that nickname the ghost buster.
shit spouter is a little more accurate

by Red Robbo - Ageing Young Turk Fri Apr 07, 2006 17:56

I've got copies of minutes of CWC meetings where Telling Fibs Continually members were present to deal with Workplace 2010. They didn't say much. They do have placards though and Amanda will stand condemned by the "Revolutionary Left " in our union of "Pragmatism" and of merely "tinkering with capitalism". Okay Amanda, you have relentlessly lobbied the political parties, made detailed responses to the consultation documents issued (in some cases many months ago), organised a picket of the SIB and senior civil servants. But where's your slogans. Where's your placards and air horns. For it is by the sounding of our horns that we will bring down the walls of Jericho. Or Clare House if we are lucky.

by ghostbuster - ghostbusters Fri Apr 07, 2006 18:35

Here we have the wonderful comments from "s", not content with showing off the great education gained at campbell college, "s" has decided to enter the realm of the basic insult. Your poor attempts to convince everyone of your working class roots by misspelling words and poor grammar don't fool me. Good to see you had something to say on the subject being discussed, i.e. the NICS pay dispute, in fact you are so much on track and "clued up" you really must be a member of the Uncivil Servant. Why not go and leaflet at the city hall tonight, too late for the ball as usual.

The union is NIPSA by the way.

by The Upsetter 2 Fri Apr 07, 2006 19:12

The ball has been passed to me my old friend, I have seen and read so much, but one thing rings true, The Uncivil Servant would rather forge links with Postal Workers than unite the members of NIPSA. thats what they are about.

if it looks like tripe, smells like tripe, tastes like tripe.... it must be tripe.

by Frank Carson - The comedians Fri Apr 07, 2006 19:22

Here "s" whats the difference between an AA in the Civil Service and a member of the SWP........................

About 20 grand a year!

Do you get it, its the way I tell them.

by s Fri Apr 07, 2006 21:27

it is just a lie to say that swp members are well paid.
if you checked it out youd no ur head is up ur hole.
though i must say i liked the joke anyway

by can u handle the truth - thankfully none Sat Apr 08, 2006 04:06

TFC are not my kind of people as they are governed by SP

however i respect them as they stand by their beliefes which is more than can be said for some

US are a complete joke - why they are even getting web space is beyond me (sorry i forgot it is a form of media - that must be why)

forget factions what we really need is independants on GC and CSGC who stand by their beliefs and convictions

US is dead

TFC has great potential if it leaves SP behind

SWP are ******* who speak nothing but rhetoric

the revolution is coming

Long live the independant

PS don't think the EX members of US would be happy hearing their reputation being used as working for US during the pay dispute - THAT WAS DONE As AN INDEPENDANT!!

by amanda allaway Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:19

OK NIPSA Rep lets talk about pay.

So who's rewriting the history then?

Lets go back to the 2003 campaign.

Of course it was and continues to be claimed that the "right wing" held down the members in the dispute by refusing to go for all out action soon enough, wasting time (and money) on one day strikes and selective action - hence when the dispute (in terms of industrial action) was SUSPENDED in 2004 we had the special conference to pick over everything and decide who or what strategy was to blame for the members failing to follow the EC to all out strike.

Bear in mind that all the way through that period TFC had a significant number of members on the EC but there is no record from any meeting of anything other than unanimous decisions being taken by the EC throughout that period of the pay campaign. If as they claim they were working so hard for the members and believed the strategy was so wrong why did they not force a split in the EC which would have, yes possibly been seen as damaging from PR point of view, but would have given the members the opporuntity to decide which way they wanted to go - so called right wing or TFC. There was of course debate during the EC meeetings - if there wasn't there would be something wrong but TFC never had the courage of their convictions to force a vote on it. I wonder why.

So lets look at 2005 - having SUSPENDED industrial action after the agreement reached in 2004 when the members decided they weren't prepared to take all out action and the management side gave a commitment to 1, equal pay review, 2, review with the Home civil service, 3. Independent review of the dispute (only ONE of which has been completed - are you hearing this Mr Hain???) we have the special conference which basically decides no more selective action, no more one day here / there strikes - all out we go.

When faced with the refusal by the Secretary of State to abide by the agreement reached in 2004 the EC was faced with the policy from special Conference and the fact that we had SUSPENDED the dispute at the point of all out action - everyone was agreed that a one day strike would not force PH to change his mind so what WOULD HAVE BEEN THE POINT OF IT? TFC wanted "a rolling programme" of strike action they will cry - but they didn't force a vote on that did they? that would have ended up with the "right wing" seeking all out action and TFC taking a more "conservative" route - that would never do.

But this is where now we have the rewriting of history - TFC faced with the propspect that (oh my god) the "right wing" actually agree that there was no alternative but to push for all out action how were TFC going to protray themselves alone as the saviours of the masses - oh I know, we'll claim it was a cunning plan to trick the members!! So help me its pathetic.

So NIPSA REP there's my historical precis of events - you want to know what we're going to do now?

Well, for a start the only legal action now on the cards is the equal pay cases that SHOULD HAVE BEEN STARTED AT LEAST 5 YEARS AGO, will probably only take oh, 10 years to get to Tribunal but hey, thats money in the bank isn't it? I'm afraid that no tribunal case will be turned around in 115 days.

The equal pay review and the Home Civil Service Levels survey - where are they? - have we progressed that or have we failed to push for those reviews to be completed which in my humble opinion are crucial to curbing regional pay (which is what we have now). Maybe NIPSA could get that done in the next 115 days?

Frankly, and this is the reason I posted in the first place about Workplace 2010 - the issue of pay whilst important is much less important in many peoples minds now when faced with the prospect of A. NOT HAVING A JOB or B. BEING TUPED TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

(I refer to my previous post on that subject)

I have resigned NIPSA rep because I would no longer be party to a decision making body that failed to react to the threat of privatisation - particularly when THEY KNEW THE ISSUES - you say you don't believe that resigning is the right thing to do - I did it because I am going to speak out because I do stand by my convictions and I felt I could not do that whilst I remained a member of those committees. I don't know if I'll take up my seat on the General Council - I haven't decided yet, I submitted my resignation after the GC election process began - I think I'll wait to see what happens in the next 115 days.

by K Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:33

I know this thread is about pay but as I'm in danger of losing my job to a private company please indulge me. Sorry but pay comes second on my list of priorities at the moment.

Amanda, if what you say is true then I might just do the same as you've done and resign from NIPSA.

We have all known about the WP2010 pilots for some time - Royston and the sinking, stinking Clare House (there's been an article in NIPSA news) - BUT the privatisation of the 80 buildings and the jobs in them in something different. Amanda, you said you have been raising at every meeting of the CS Group and that you've circulated many articles, documents and letters to the CS Group and NIPSA officials.

Before I look for another union, and am considering Unison if they would have me, please answer the following.

1 When did the CS Exec and officials become aware of the intention to proceed with WP2010 of the 80 buildings and staff before the pilots have ended?
2 What meeting was that first discussed at?
3 Who took part in the debate and what was decided?
4 I picked up a TFC leaflet at a meeting on WP2010. It said the NIPSA leadership has let the ball drop on this issue. Who are they talking about if you say the CS Chairperson and President knew about this and if TFC members are on the committee that deals with WP2010? Name and shame them. We should have the truth.

If I do happen to lose my job as a result of the inaction by the 'leadership' of NIPSA, YOU CAN BE DAMN SURE I WON'T GO QUIETLY!!

by amanda allaway Sun Apr 09, 2006 16:14

K - I haven't resigned from NIPSA and I have no intention to doing so - I am most definitely not going away - I have resigned as Vice Chair of the Civil Service Group and as a member of the General Council.

Carmel Gates is the Chair of the CS Group and Billy Lynn is NIPSA President and a member of the Committee dealing with WP2010 - both are SP and TFC. As I said before I have raised WP2010 at every meeting that I attended since last March.

by Rogue Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:47

This has been interesting if not very edifying. I was sorry to see this debate descending into lavatorial name calling, (shame on those involved). After reading the comments above I am convinced all the more that the Union needs the grass root members to become actively involved to drive the Union forward in these troubled times ahead. What direction they want to take the Union only they can decide. As I have previously stated TFC seem the only grouping willing to stand there to be counted (and shot at). They state clearly their possition, everyone knows who they are, what they stand for and what they want to achieve. I know that it is the direction I want my Union to go in, and I'm hoping more and more will start to agree. On a personal note I don't have much time for petty name calling or clever injoking and one upmanshiping. The whole situation is much too serious for that. With that in mind, fair play to Amanda for abandoning the anonimity that I, along with the other contributors were not prepared to do.