Are we ready to accept the Orange

by barra Tue Feb 28, 2006 13:33

I completely believe in free speech for want ever political view. I believe that everyone should have a potential platform if they so wish to express there beliefs and having that belief heard. In theory as I passionately believe this I should be in tolerant of the orange march though the city center .If I witnessed them marched with their band pass the G.P.O as insensitive as it was I would still cling to my view of free speech view and allow them to do that.

Now then again for people who this would offend dearly because of their different views I would agree they have a right to be heard in there opposition to the march.

This is where the dilemma comes it. I believe the two sides have a right to express their different views, but this is only going to lead to a conflict. It will take generations to heal the divide oppression and sectarianism has created. Having extermist elements of opposition to a lot Irish people’s views, them marching by the G.P.O could only lead to one thing.

The riot was a result of many deep seeded social problems that our society faces and has faced for many years. The catalyst was the orange march but it quickly evolved in to an anti – police riot. The result will be to build bigger prisons not solve the real problems of social injustice.

The orange order should have its voice heard in the republic of Ireland and the opposition to them should equally if not a lot more so have there voice heard. I hope in my life time to see hateful organizations like the orange order to fade into obscurity, by the result of there dogmatic message becoming irreverent to people lives, and its members will let go of their flags and symbols the embrace humanity on equal terms. It’s a long journey but if we tolerate sectarianism our children will be next for its hateful embrace.

by Keith Tue Feb 28, 2006 14:28

I have never been so annoyed as I have been over the last few days listening to the politicians telling me what I think. I have not talked to one person since Saturday who thinks the Orange Order should have been allowed march through Dublin. The will of the majority is obviously against the mere thought of the march. How can the government then go and grant one on behalf of us? Not only that but they then pretend to not understand what went wrong. What kind of representatives are they to get it so wrong. It just shows that they have completely lost touch with the people. It is quite upsetting to think that we have kept them in government for so long only for them to ignore us. This isn't the first time either. What kind of Republic is this anyway? It's about time our representatives started listening to us. I sincerely hope that Michael McDowell does not remain Justice Minsister for much longer.

I've said this before in another post but I'll say it again. There should not be any kind of march organised by the Orange Order. I beleive a neutral party, such as Amnesty International, should organise a march for the victims of violence on both sides. I would even be ok with some British flags along with Irish ones. I don't think many people would oppose this. But we will not stand for the Nazi-like Orange Order celebrating their hatered of Catholics in our streets.

by rob j 11 Tue Feb 28, 2006 15:35

im a sf supporter, just want to say that while the "love ulster" are a bunch of hate-filled bigots who believe there are superior to every else on this island. their had march permission fram the city council to go ahead and therefore while a counter protest by some people could be justified the on the grounds of opossing sectarianism the looting of shops and violence used against the gs was totally unacceptable

by Neandtheral Tue Feb 28, 2006 16:03

On Saturday I recognised many SF members taking part in what you describe as violence. Its not so long ago that they would have been doing so at Gerrys behest. I fought shoulder to shoulder with Sean Crowe in July 1981. I am sickened that he is now disowning those who did no more he did in the past.

by rod j 11 Tue Feb 28, 2006 18:26

I'd be surprised if u did to be honest. i doubt any sf members or supporters were looting shops or torching cars.most of the rioters were kids and it seems there were either with rsf or irsp or else just coming along doing mindless thuggery.i called it violence because thats what it was what would u call it? the facts are that sf oganised no counter protest against the loyalist bigots, sf told people to ignore the sectarian parade. personally a peaceful parade should have been organised by sf and others to demand the full implentation of the gfa, an end to oo sectarianism and justice for victims of loyalist terror. sf dont do riots in the manner you've implied they do hold demos and protests which are aleays well stewarded.

by Dennis Tue Feb 28, 2006 18:37

I agree with you that Amnesty would be a suitable organisation to hold such a march, but I would not want any flags flown. Most of the difficulty stems from the selective and partisan claims of various factions that they suffered more than the other faction. The march/parade/whatever planned for last Saturday was a prime example of that. Its main purpose was to bash one side while ignoring the faults of the other.

by jah bless my rudegirl Tue Feb 28, 2006 22:15

On the rerun of the Love Ulster rally next month, we should stand by and clap and cheer loyalists instead, then we should all follow them back up north to the Shankill rd, where republicans can experience the hospitality and tolerance of loyalists as we march up the Shankill, waving tricolours, and singing along to a republican rebel band.

by Neandtheral Tue Feb 28, 2006 23:40

I doubt if you have ever fought for anything in your life or even understand the meaning of the word Republican. Sean Crowe did once but now he has walked down the road so often tread by those who sellout.

by Barry Wed Mar 01, 2006 00:06

Keiths thoughts sum up exactly what a great many ordinary people have been saying about this . The utter lack of democratic accountability by those permitting this parade .

For example had Frazer decided to simply bring IRA victims families to Dublin , with no flags , no kick the pope bands , no paramilitary back up then there would probably have been no protest whatsoever .

Instead Frazer sought to rub sectarian hatred and triumphalism in peoples faces and give it a thin veneer of victimhood , and people saw that . And they clearly didnt want it . However senior members of the Dublin Governemnt clearly did want it as part of their own political agenda and even welcomed it .

They were well aware of the deep inextricable links of the organisers to the massacre of Dublins poor decades earlier yet chose to welcome it with no restrictions . They instead chose to split the heads open of peaceful demonstrators at the beginning , as they had assured Frazer they would do . They placed no restrictions whatsoever on Frazer despite the knowledge hed be honouring Robert McConnell .

Yet most people didnt want this .

This again points to what is fundamentally undemocratic about Irish politics . All politics practiced in this islands institutions are bound to British interests - in fact they are British politics in essence forced on the rest of us . Which makes the fundamental lack of democracy apparent in situations like this . British politics as practiced in Ireland decreed Frazer and his gang had to be made welcome despite ordinary peoples wishes .

While there may have been a number of mitigating factors concerning the riot , none of these things explain why so many Dublin people who observed the riot werent altogether opposed to it . Thats because the decision was undemocratic .

Frazer and his crowd should have been permitted to march but not solely on their terms with no regard to Dublins citizenry and no regard to their feelings. They should not have been allowed to deliberately insult people . McDowell and co thought otherwise and that Dublins citizens had no right to interfere with the practice of British politics throughout the island .

Thats why theres more trouble brewing for the future - a total lack of democratic practice and accountability .

by rob j11 Wed Mar 01, 2006 14:57

i doubt you did too, a proper volunteer wouldnt be criticising the movement in public.
i am a republican are you? do you know what the word means? i'l tell you its someone who believs that all authority in the state should be held by the people or their elected representatives. it means believing in liberty, equality and franternity. it doesnt mean attacking those who hold a different view or because they have a different religion or whatever else. people like you are stuck in a time warp when catholic=republican and protestant=unionist and therefore you are a hindrance to irish unification and building an ireland of equals. sf has taken iniatives to build a uinted ireland based on equality and accepting others opinions, maybe you should too since you claim to be a republican. as it says in the proclamation"equal rights and equal oppurtunities for all the people"

by Neandtheral Wed Mar 01, 2006 15:40

When did I ever say I was a Volunteer? Sean Crowe has never been associated with the IRA in the public mind. How little you know of Republican history; when I mentioned July 1981 I meant the attempt to burn the British Embassy. Something called a Hungerstrike was taking place then. Opposing a Loyalist Triumphalist March through Dublin is in keeping with the best Republican traditions.

by Democrat Wed Mar 01, 2006 15:57

As usual, Barry is talking utter rubbish. Democracy does not mean that the majority has the right to foist their opinions on minority viewpoints (I seem to recall that that inaccurate view of democracy was always something Ian Paisley argued, and minority rights be damned).... Yes, the Orange Order is a bunch of bigoted morons - but then in my opinion so is the 32 County Sovereignty Movement. Just as I defend the right of Barry and his cohorts to make absolute ejits of themselves (minus the semtex, of course), so I defend the right of the Orange Order to make bigoted statements, and offend other people. Democracy means that you disagree with what people say, but you defend to the death their right to say it. In a democracy, people have the right to offend you.

But then Barry and his fellow extreme Republicans have themselves no respect for democracy. The majority of the Irish people always opposed the armed campaign of the IRA, for example - yet Barry insists, not that Catholics have the right to defend themselves (which they do), but that the IRA had the right to wage an offensive war, against the express views of the Irish people. If most of them opposed bombing London, shooting soldiers, and blowing Belfast to bits - too bad. Republicans abrogated to themselves the right to do it anyway. Now, they have the gall to lecture us on democracy!

Yes, some people at the head of Love Ulster have very questionable credentials. In spite of this, they were ventilating an issue of great concern to many Protestants - the innocent people killed by Republicans (eg at Kingsmills) over the years. For this reason, Republicans should have been careful. I recall that when NICRA began in 1968 Paisley and other ejits pointed to the involvement of Republicans, and insisted that this meant NICRA was only a Republican plot. It was nothing of the sort, of course. But by Paisley treating it in this way, and therefore disparaging the Catholic minority's right to protest peacefully and ventilate their views, he compelled many people to conclude that only armed insurrection was viable. In a sense, the modern IRA was not created by a Fianna Fail conspiracy, but was the direct product of Ian Paisley's over-heated imagination.

Barry et al are falling into a similar trap now - and no, I am not equating the Love Ulster march with that of NICRA, just drawing parallels with how we might respond. By branding the entire potential march with the view that it is nothing but a bigoted and even fascist march, they are driving those who genuinely have those views to conclude that they can not get a fair hearing for their opinions in Catholic Ireland. In the process, bang goes the idea of a United Ireland - yet again. Why join something that is so disrespectful towards dissent?

How this equates to persuading people to want Irish unity, I don't know. But I do know this. Barry and his cohorts represent the past rather than the future. They have dragged the nbame of Ireland in the mud, and should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves - sadly, they have not the wit to do so.

Class 101 on Civics is urgently required.

by rob j 11]2 Wed Mar 01, 2006 17:27

i never said sean crowe was in the army, attempting to burn the brit embassy during the hunger strikes was totally differernt because there the british government was causing the deaths of young irishmen fighting for their rights as pow's. dont compare that to allowing a too bit group of bigots march through dublin. i take it you accept definition of republicanism also

by Keith Wed Mar 01, 2006 19:17

You know what I just remembered today? I remember watching news footage of a load of school kids trying to get to Holy Cross school behind riot shields as loyalists pelted rocks and bottles of urine at them. Then they expect to march unhindered? Ha!

by democrat Wed Mar 01, 2006 19:55

keith

Let's turn this around a bit. I can imagine many Protestants saying - remember Kingsmills, La Mon, Enniskillen, Canary Wharf etc. And then these SF bastards want to march in Belfast? No way Jose! They are murdering scum and all should be in jail.

No side has a monopoly of suffering, insight, hurt or virtue - including yours. I wonder how many of those planning to march in Dublin by the way personally threw urine at kids in North Belfast? My guess is not many, but my guess is no more sound than yours. You just clothe yourself in righteous anger, and refuse to see that in a democracy you must let people of other persuasions express their views. this includes by marching, wearing whatever insignia they want, and even playing lambeg drums (a horrible instrument!) if the mood takes them. I hate Irish rebel songs for that matter - but if people want to torture their ear drums by listening to such bilge, then that is their right. The alternative is a fundamentalist, Taliban style Republic, in which people like Barry, Ruairi O'Bradaigh and maybe you decide who should be allowed to have an opinion and who should not. Not a cause worth fighting for, I am afraid.....

Once again, democracy means that EVERYBODY (including mad loyalists, including mad republicans, including lambeg drum lovers, including those who think that 'Kevin Barry' is a good song, including you) has the right to a point of view, a tradition, the right to assemble, the right to march. the right to make horrible noise and then claim that it is music.

By concentrating only on the worst sides of your 'enemy', and saying that you have the right to decide who has democratic rights and who doesn't, you run the risk of advocating a green nationalism that borders on - what? Fundamentalism? Fascism? Dictatorship? A lunatic asylyum? In event, it is a deeply unattractive spectacle.

by Keith Wed Mar 01, 2006 21:09

So let me get this straight democrat. Do you think that Sinn Fein should be allowed march through Omagh to demonstrate for the victims of the RUC and British Army? Do you think Nazi's should be allowed march through Poland to demonstrate for the German soldiers killed in WW2? Do you not think that a society should be allowed decide that certain things should not be acceptable. How about we let convicted paedophiles demonstrate outside schools for a lower age of consent? I believe in free speach but I think it should have limits. You may ask who decides these limits. Society should. That march was never about expressing a belief. It was organised to provoke and hurt and I believe as a society we should have the right to protect ourselves from things like that.

by democrat Wed Mar 01, 2006 21:24

Keith

But, Keith, we are not discussing the Nazis/ Poland or any other European historical analogy, or child sexual abuse. You have to be wary of historical analagies: they are always inexact, and can lead the light-minded and the bigoted, such as yourself, astray.

Rather, we are discussing Ireland, and the right of people who identify with the Orange tradition to ventilate their views. We should be VERY careful about where we limit free speech. Many people, Keith, wouild find your views as repugnant as you find loyalism - I certainly do. But that does not mean that you should be banished from making an idiot of yourself, if that is what you choose do. A majority should go out of its way to express tolerance for a minority, and if that includes being offended - so what? You seem to view the orange order and anybody who has any sympathy with it as Nazis. Now, this is very far fatched - I do not agree with you; plainly, most Protestants do not agree with you. I think Orangeism is backward and sectarian (as is Irish Republicanism, in my view) - but to equate it with fascism is typical of the hype that has dominated Republican rhetoric for generations. Irish Republicanism - never known to understate its case....

Why therefore should you have the right to impose your definition of reality on Irish society as a whole?

By limiting free speech as much as you do you 'achieve' several things:
1. You alienate most Protestants from your aim of a united Ireland, thereby making it harder to attain.
2. You create the imprression that you want a fundamentalist Green Republic - and therefore alienate even many nationalists, making your goals even more elusive
3. You make sure that your enemies remain enemies, rather win them over. Remember: you do not make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies. That means that you should try to understand them. You elect instead to demonise them. The result is:
4. Conflict escalates, and nobody wins.

Par for the course with Irish fanatical republicanism, of course..... You have tried these tactics for decades without success, but seem inclined to continue them anyway, without learning anything. What is that definition of insanity - continuing to repeat the same behaviours, while hoping for different results. Does that ring a bell?

I defend the right of Protestants to march and if that means making fools of themselves, I can live with it. I defend your right to do likewise. What I do not defend is your right to prevent others from exercising their right to an opinion just because you find it repugnant.

by Keith Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:35

The way Catholics were treated in Northern Ireland is very similar to the way Nazis treated all their victims. Catholics were seen as second class citizens and treated as such. Where are you from out of interest?

by Democrat Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:52

Keith

I am from Belfast.

Now - your position is nonsense. The Nazis murdered 6 million Jews, Communists, trade unionists and gays. They then invaded most of Europe and Russia, killing tens of millions. The Northern Ireland regime under Stormont was despicable - but to equate it with the Nazis, which also means to equate the suffering of Catholics (and I grew up as one, in the 1960s in the North) with the Jews is beyond absurdity and beyond paradoy. It reveals an utter lack of historical perspective. It means you are equating the Orange tradition with membership of the Nazi party - a position so grotesque as to defy analysis. For all its backwardness (a backwardness and primitiveness that I would say is more than matched by fanatical Irish Republicanism) it is NOT comparable to Nazism and its crimes are not comparable to the holocaust. For that matter, Long Kesh (which was certainly a wretched place) was never comparable to Nazi concentration camps - let me remind you that in the latter the inmates, which included women and children, were gassed to death by the millions. Your historical analogies are very shaky indeed, however crucial to your belief system they evidently are.

The Orange tradition, recognised in the Irish flag, has the right to exist. As a democrat, I respect its supports' right to assemble, march and express their views. You said earlier that society has the right to delineate limits on freedom of speech. But society means more than you - unless you are now confusing your will with that of the entire Irish nation. The main thing that society, in the form of its instituitions and major political parties, has decreed is that the Protestant and Orange tradition should be allowed free expression. Even SF did not want this march in Dublin banned; the democratically elected institutions of the Irish state thought likewise. You and your co-thinkers have the right to make fools of yourselves, and you exercise this right on a regular basis, as in your previous post. I defend your right to do so, as often as you wish. But I equally defend the right of Protestants in Northern Ireland to define their tradition for themselves, to organise around it, to have insignia to express it, and to march on the streets of the capital of what you tell them is their own country - even if I find their views offensive.

I do not grant you the right to throw the insult of Nazi at everyone you disagree with, and beat them off the streets in consequence.

Such behaviour is, itself, rather fascistic in its overtones. Think about it.

by pat c Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:02

you are right, the term nazzi is thrown around far too quickly on indymedia. however you have then undermined your own point by accusing keith of facsistic behaviour.

loyalist paramilitaries are not nescessarily fash but they have always contained fash members such as adair, wright, bratty, elders. they certainly have organic links with the bnp & combat 18.

love ulster also have links to the bnp and combat 18. the evidence has been published on indymedia on several occasions.

by Keith Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:42

You keep saying Protestants should have all these rights. I completely agree. I have nothing against Protestants. My problem is with the Orange Order. The Orangemens hatered of catholics is the on the same level as the Nazi hatered of jews. That is what I am referring to when I compare them. I don't know if you're a catholic or protestant. Either way you've obviously never been on the receiving end of this hatered. Perhaps if you were you'd understand where I'm coming from.

by democrat Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:46

I grew up a catholic in northern ireland. I felt discrimination at first hand. My father had to travel to england to work and leave his family because of it. I insist that to compare the orange order to nazism is absurd and ridiculous. 6 million dead in the Holocaust outclasses sectarian discrimination by a long way. It is contradictory to say that Protestants are ok and have rights - but if they choose to exdpress this in the Orange Order they should be swept from the streets. It is just a bigoted echo of what they did to 'us' years ago, and is no more rightr now than then. And it is completely undemocratic. You are in a bind, Keith - give it up!

by Keith Thu Mar 02, 2006 18:47

I did not say discrimination. I said hatred. There's a difference. If you don't see that difference then I say once again you haven't been on the end of it. You're not listening to what i'm saying about the nazis. Obviously the sectarianism isnt on the scale of the nazis but it is the same hatred that was there. I think its ok to seperate the rights of the orange men from that of Protestants in general. Just like the IRA should have less rights than Catholics.

by democrat Thu Mar 02, 2006 19:33

keith

you draw analogfes between orangeism and the nazis (in a spirit of utter ignorance, I would say), and on that basis say that the right of the OO to march must be either limited or eliminated. The logical conclusion is that they should be outlawed - after all, if they are Nazis (or semi-Nazis) why not? The effect of this can be readily imagined, which is perhaps why you shy away from thinking your 'thoughts' to a conclusion. If we are talking of Nazism, you should remember that it was the Republican Movement that collaborated with the Nazis during the war, not the OO. (For that matter, I remember a number of republicans arguing privately with me in the 1970s - more elderly ones, to be sure - that Hitler had much going for him, since 'he was the only man to ever nearly beat England'. Would that justify banning Republican marches? Of course not. Nor does the more rabid and horrible side of Orangeism justify any such response to them either,

If Protestants have the right to a separate cultural identity, they (and not you, or anybody else) have the right to determine what form it takes. If that is offensive to you, get over it. If, in your opinion, it represents hatred - take it. In short, grow up and don't be so easily annoyed.

Many Protestants find you as despicable as you find the OO. Many Republican demonstrations have involved people that Protestants would regard, rightly in my view, as murdering bastards - people who have had their hands dirty with Kingsmills, La Mon, Omagh and many other events too many to list. I can imagine how they felt when Republicans demanded the right to march in Belfast....... I think SF etc SHOULD be allowed to march in Belfast (even though I regard them as sectarian, backward and bigoted), BUT I also defend the right of Orangemen to do the same in Dublin. It is, after all, democracy.

By demonising the way that Protestants express themselves, you simply embrace a Green fundamentalism that is deeply unattractive.

A key part of the problem in Ireland is the inability of either side to empathise with the other, but to don the cloak of self righteousness, in which all sin is on the other side, all virtue in yours. You illustrate the impasse, and the backwardness of Republicanism, only too well. Unintentionally, of course.

by pat c Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:23

republicans didnt collaborate with nazzis during WWII, they sought arms from them. they were mistaken to do so but did not share the nazzi ideology. as sean o'ruisseal said: "i am not pronazi or even progerman". if you are looking for real irishnazis then look at the blueshirts and oliver j.flanagan who in the dail in 1943 praised hitler and called for the jews to be rooted out of ireland.

getting back to present days it is the loyalist paramilitaries who have had the fash links with combat 18, the bnp and others being involved in fund raising and gunrunning for loyalists.

even today, combat 18 and the bnp are organically linked to "fair" and "love ulster". participating in and stewarding their demos in britain.

by DMS Sun Mar 05, 2006 00:53

If you can't accept the sight of Orangemen on your streets then kindly remove the orange stripe from your flag. Or are Orangemen only acceptable once they have surrendered to the Irish Republican point of view? Grow up! The morons who used violence to protest at the sight of Orangemen in the Irish Republic have shown themselves to be utter bigots, both to the people of Ulster and the rest of the world. Likewise the bigots on the Garvaghy Road who fly a flag with an orange stripe on it all along their street, yet refuse to allow an Orangeman to walk along it. Get real, folks - every time Irish Republicans refuse to welcome Orangemen into their midst they are showing that their national flag is a mockery and that they are bigots. I say again - if you can't accept Orangemen and women as friends they please, please remove that orange stripe from your flag and go back to the original all green. There will NEVER be a united Ireland of any kind until you treat the Orangemen and women as friends. Fact!

by tom kelly Sun Mar 05, 2006 05:13

Except them as friends , If I walked into an Orange lodge would they accept me as a friend ???? OH...........Iam Catholic Iam from the Republic....when I enter the orange lodge I might be wearing my Celtic jersey..........Are they still welcoming me with a cup of tea and scones......or would I be lucky to get away with my life ...??????????