|
|
Blog Feeds
Anti-Empire
The SakerA bird's eye view of the vineyard
Public InquiryInterested in maladministration. Estd. 2005
Human Rights in IrelandIndymedia Ireland is a volunteer-run non-commercial open publishing website for local and international news, opinion & analysis, press releases and events. Its main objective is to enable the public to participate in reporting and analysis of the news and other important events and aspects of our daily lives and thereby give a voice to people.
|
Protest Against Opening of Stringfellows at 8.00pm dublin |
miscellaneous |
press release
 Wednesday February 01, 2006 16:12 by Joanne Doherty 0863651263
 There will be a protest outside Stringfellows lapdancing club this evening at 8.00pm. The Rape Crisis Network of Ireland has said that the opening of this club will inevitably lead to the continued degradation and objectification of women. Other problems that will result in the opening of this club is an increase in sexual violence against women and sex trafficking. Peter Stringfellow is trying to glamorise the club and give it a positive image, by inviting famous celebrities to its opening this evening. This is taking away from the facts that this club is going to have enormous negative implications on women. |
printable version
Digg this
del.icio.us
Furl
Reddit
Technorati
Facebook
Gab
Twitter
|
View Comments Titles Only
save preference
Comments (52 of 52)
Jump To Comment: 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1oh Bishop Brennan may I please kiss your ring
..and while I'm at it, absolve me of sin
Yes,I did belive har as she had the apartment above me and it wasnt a dive our address.So no I wouldnt have a doubt.
Bishop Brennan (can I call you "Len"?):
You took the prostitutes' claim that she can afford a lavish lifestyle at face value - do you really believe her or do you have the slightest scintilla of doubt about what she said?
'Stringfellows' in Dublin closed its doors for the final time this afternoon, after less than six months in business. The controversial lap-dancing club had been targeted by protestors since it opened in February of this year.
Isn't it very strange that men aren't being exploited in the media in this fashion. I can't really understand why not. maybe someone could enlighten me........
hate to burst your little ranting bubble - but what do you think Boy-Bands are all about? - Besides teenage girls, gay men and frustrated 'Mammy'-Types, who else would buy their records? I suggest a picket on Louis Walshe's house :)
ever heard of Male-strippers? Oh no, nothing like that for the good clean maidens of Eireann, down with that sort of thing.
Actually Lap-dancing clubs are for sad people - we should offer tea and sympathy
HI, I am a lap dancer and have been for 3 years, it paid for my University course and is about to take me on a round the world trip. I stumbled across this thread whilst looking for the number to get an audition for this club. I have patiently read and digested all of your thoughts and comments. I feel that really everyone is in part correct.
Humans have a natural desire to procreate and therefore sex is often used as a tool to grab attention.
Males respond best to visual stimulation hence the saturated visual porn industry.
Females respond to mental stimulation hence the amount of romance stories 'chick flicks' etc
There isnt anything inherently wrong with any of those things.
Visitors to strip clubs do get exploited. In one club I worked, a dancer worked together with a bouncer to defraud drunk clientelle with promises of 'extras' with payment up front, then the client being ejected before the situation could occur. This is an extreme but most dancers are very wiley and will actually have power over the men in the club, not the other way around. There are some clubs where the phrase "wallet rape" is used.
Im not saying any of this is good or that it cancels anything else out. Some girls may fall into prostitution but they are very few and far between. Most just get tired of the hours, the travelling and get a 'regular' job after putting a deposit down on a house.
Sex and sexuality arent bad terrible things. I am also aware that most of my customers go home to pleasent memories not testosterone fulled rampages.
I chose to do this job, therefore I chose to be viewed as a sexual object. On one hand I am pleased that I am lucky enough to be able to be viewed that way. On the otherhand I find it tiring and shallow to put so much emphasis on physicality alone. But when I hang up the stilettos, put on my clothes and go home to my lovely boyfriend I am, like all my peers, a well adjusted graduate with a great future ahead of me. Doesn't everyone has parts of their job that they dont like or could be more ethical?
If the financiers of this world put more money into ensuring 'sex workers' were in safe environments and had a choice in their profession or into reduction of carbon emissions instead of arms and oil wars or the like surely the world would be a bit happier?
My last comment would have to be the fact no one has dared to mention alcohol in this thread. In my experience it is more likely to cause (especially young adults) problems with violence, power struggles and rape than lap dancing.
Thank you, it was an absolute pleasure to dance for you.
I am from Holland and live in Germany.
What I know is that because it is allowed in these countries, there are less sexual crimes because of it!!!!
Worry about Tesco selling G-strings for 4-8 years old FIRST!!!!!
Nina.
Friday the 3rd of February, picket outside Springfellows.
You should read the post by A friendly neighbour again.
The last post is a load of rubbish :
1) There are no protestors outside stringfellows at the moment.
2) Apart from the opening night there was never protestors there while the club was actually open.
3) These "protestors" made no noise at all - one simply held a small placard, and stood a distance from the club beside the road.
The last post exaggerates the number of protestors.
Hundreds of people walked past the "protestors" and did not support them. Hundreds have already entered stringfellows.
There was a hardcore of two to three protestors for a few nights after the opening, which have now gone back to whatever they usually do.
Hello protesters!
I am actually living across the street from this new venue and I only have one complaint. You people are protesting so loud that we cannot even watch tv anymore without turn up the volume to the max. I want to make two big points here.
1. I am more bothered by you guys protesting very loudly until very late than by this new place.
2. This strip club is no worse than what YOUR daughters are wearing every weekend when they go out to the pubs and nghtclubs. The only difference is that the girls in that new club are being paid for it.
I see nothing wrong about having that strip bar there. It's not the most decent area of town anyway and in 2006 a strip bar should not be a "bad" thing anyway. Those places existed hundreds of years ago and they will always exist and as a matter of fact almost every man enters a venue like that at least once in his lifetime.
I am going to check this strip bar out tonight and I am sure it won't be any worse than YOUR daughters are doing every weekend.
Good evening...
Your neighbour.
Would rather have a lap dancing club,brothel and sex shop on my street anyday.Than a bunch of miseryguts,child molesting,fear indoctinrating,catholic clergy or any of it's organisations.At least I would know my kidswould be safer then.
I like your fascistic argument.
What if you had kids someone decided because of problems in your area to set up a sex shop next door saying 'it's a kip anyway'.
Whats all the bloody fuss about, just another strip club in dublin.. why the sudden interest in them? Its not the first club and won't be the last. If stringfellows does well, there will be more in that same area to rival the baggot st/lesson st. area. Parnell st. is a kip anyway so whats another strip club going to do to its image..
Tess,
Firstly I would appreciate if you would refrain from personalising the debate here. At no stage have I said that I will, or have visited Stringfellows or any other lap dancing club. Stop making silly assumptions - it weakens your argument (not that you presented much of an argument).
Why can't you or any of the protestors actually answer my question?
1) Why single out stringfellows instead of any of the other clubs in Dublin
Is there some link between these "protestors" and other lap dancing clubs in Dublin ?
Damian
A reply to your comments.
What is the purpose of it for the viewer?
"It provides entertainment"
Can you not find more something more enlightming and improve your intellectual ability? There are myriads of other entertainments.
Why does any person require a prewiew a naket body?
-They don't require it, they desire it. It's a pretty basic instinct.
So now you give in to your basic instincts. Interesting!
What sort of thought process is going on inside the mind of the viewer?
"Who knows, depends on the viewer"
This is a rather ambigious weak answer.
What makes such a viewer require a naked body to get their "kicks".
"It's instinct for men to get sexual kicks from the visual stimulus of a naked body".
So now you categorise "men" in general. Might I suggest you don't do this to your male compatriots. It is offensive to generalize "men" like this.
Now can one of these protestors answer my questions :
1) Why single out stringfellows instead of any of the other clubs in Dublin. Do you really think what goes on in Stringfellows will be worse than what goes on in other clubs? Is it simply because you don't like Peter Stringfellow?
A) I don't know Peter Stringfellow at all. I can, however, see he is using an exploitive medium to part you and others like from your money.
2) Why single out strip clubs at all? Why not protest in any of the citys red light districts, where women are at much greater risk? Why not protest outside sex shops which stock videos of women being degraded in much more serious ways than in Stringfellows?
A) Because by their very nature those clubs exploit performers and the patrons alike.
3) Why help Stringfellows by protesting? If it hadn't been for the protestors there would have been much less media hype....which in turn would have ment less visitors to the club, which ultimately would have reduced the number of women working there.
A) I am not one of the protesters. Just making a few points for you to ponder. They could be good and stimulating for your intellect. Yes No?
4) Why protest only when the club is closed??? None of the customers, dancers or management will see you. Is this protest more about preaching than achieving something ?
A) I don't know what time the protests commenced or concluded. That is not my point and I am not a preacher. Just an observer who abhors exploitation of people.
You come up with them all.Oh where to start?
I am not a sexual prude BUT...... Already you are using the oldest arguement opening line of the sexual oppressor .Every old biddy uses that one.
"me and my boozed up pals" another sterotype indicating that you have a uninformed opinion of who goes to these places.Know what alot of couples and women go to these in Europe.So are they now all in your eyes preves and lesbians?Proably as it is another sterotype.
How do you know that they want to be there?
considering that I doubt that they are dragged into the place and beaten unto the stage,and are making more money than I can in a year in a week.i would assume they Do want to be there.You might think it is pathetic what they do and dont do.But they are SMARTER than you?As they realise their body and being friendly to the punters gets them more money.Plus any women I have ever used for sexual services ,never ever gave me the impression that they didnt want to be there or do what they did.I asked one of them once
Did she have ever have any problems with her job?
Her reply was
Three holidays a year in the best hotels I can afford ,two apartments in Spain,a seris 7 BMW.Do I have a problem NO!Now of course that is a long call from a pimped,street walkin crack addicted woman.BUT actually those kind of hookers would not exist very much if People like you were not always pushing the sex industry underground,by claiming it is oppressing,and the usual old tat.
It is intresting to know that Holland has thru ligiting prostitution,actually cut by 98% illegal prostitution.
Have you actually ever been in a lap dancing club or ever talked to all aspects of the call girl industry?You might be surprised at the answers.
On the domination .You came up with it in one of your previous posts.
I could go on and on defeating your straw arguements here but it is boring,as you are just one of the poor oppressed wimmin of Ireland and nothing will satisfy you apart from that we are all clones obeying your last whims.Tell you what get voted into power,become a dictator and then you can run this place as you see fit.Until then I am glad that there is still some choice for us male sexist pigs to go and oogle and spend our hard earned cash to oppress women.It is here in your town.Tough Titty[excuse the pun] I wish it was in my neighbourhood and town,would gladly have it as i would be making a mint on secondary industries.Long may it last.
sometimes you only get concern about things when the affect you directly, so a part of nimbyism allows you to see how this issue has affected many other people for yonks, and recognise how you ignored it and use that if you choose to. The best campaigns do that, has this one?
Yes, I picked up on the sarcasm. It's not often the best means of argument or discussion. The use of inverted commas " " also implies a level of tongue in cheek ness or recognition of the inappropriateness of a word, in the same sentence iosaf says 'gender politics to be afforded a section.' Merely talking about clasification on indymedia, it could just have easily been in this piece - http://www.indymedia.ie/article/73982
But again you are taking the smaller parts of peoples replies and ignoring the main argument that is being made and sending the discussion off on a different course, blargh amongst others has attempted to point this out to you. Changing societal standards is a pretty broad and nebulous concept or campaign, more short term gains that will go on to change societal attitudes can be made in the here and now using a different approach. That is what I'm referring to and iosaf has also linked to campaigning groups involved in this. A difference of approach is all and what was being attempted to be discussed, not a defense of Stringfellows.
"I'm sorry, who's the rest of us? Are you saying gender doesn't affect both men and women? That patriarchy doesn't impact negatively on both men and women?"
No, i was being sarcastic. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough to you.
Here's what happened:
iosaf said
"I've suggested a "women's" section on the newswire, because looking back over our archives, it is obvious there is a need for gender politics to be afforded a section. "
I was disagreeing that gender politics necessarily needed a seperate section all to themselves because categorising an issue as a "gender issue" or "women's issue" can sometimes imply that it is an issue for women to be concerned about and that men can happily ignore it.
In fact I believe the exact words i used were:
"Yes. Let's herd the wimmin off into their own section and then we can get on with furthering our own concerns without having to listen to them. After all it's not like their problems are anywhere near as important as ours. "
This was also sarcasm, in case you hadn't picked up on that.
No one is actually attacking the majority of the ideas being put forward here, just saying that there might be better ways of going about it. You seem to be suggesting some sort of incredibly broad, lets change societal and cultural standards campaign. Yeah cause it's that easy. There are actual ways of going about campaigns especially around domestic violence and human trafficking that can change and challenge things in the here and now for a lot of people in a material and physical way, objective rather than subjective, some tangible results. Tactical differences is all.
"I still don't think it's necessarily always wise to seperate "Gender Issues" from "Things That Affect The Rest Of Us" though."
I'm sorry, who's the rest of us? Are you saying gender doesn't affect both men and women? That patriarchy doesn't impact negatively on both men and women?
"The story would still appear on the newswire, it wouldn't be hidden away somewhere."
Yeah, okay that's a fair point. I still don't think it's necessarily always wise to seperate "Gender Issues" from "Things That Affect The Rest Of Us" though.
But as for the other point, iosaf specifically said
"Stringfellows is a tacky and (in my opinion) unsuitable target for any campaign which seeks to highlight oppression of women,"
and I simply disagree that Stringfellows or any other strip club is not a valid target. It is a business whose profit is made entirely by sexually objectifying women. Ie oppressing them. And Stringfellows in particular bills itself as being particularly "classy" to try to dress up the exploitation of women and draw attention away from the "sleazy" connotations it has had in other clubs. Inviting all these celebrities to visit it, for example. This is by way of asserting that lap dancing is entirely normal and acceptable.
Instead iosaf suggested "The barricades of that struggle will not be built there.
I'd prefer to see them built where "violence against women" really occurs. In the home."
Well, if you want to stop violence against women in the home, then you have to work on the factors that allow domestic violence to keep happening. It's not just a question of the individual man who is beating his wife, it's a question of how he came to act that way and what society is doing to either encourage or discourage the behaviour. Although men who abuse their partners are the result of several different factors (for example the behaviour he witnessed as a child in his own home), one of these factors is the shoddy treatment of women in general by society at large.
And, the hilarious irony about all of this is if I decided to strip off and walk down the street butt naked (as in chez Stringfellows but free gratis) I would be arrested!!!
But it's okay to do it in a "club" with music and alcohol and charge people for the privilege..........
There is no justice!
I believe iosaf was referring to the topics under which stories are posted, eg environment, anti-capitalism etc.
He's suggesting a "women"/"gender" topic heading so instead of "dublin | miscellaneous | press release" the above story would appear under "dublin | gender" or whatever. The story would still appear on the newswire, it wouldn't be hidden away somewhere.
And ye seem to be arguing about nothing. iosaf is saying that most violence against women occurs in the home. In general. Not YOUR home. He's talking about the effect, you're talking about the cause. And he does have a point about this maybe not being the best strategy for anyone who wants to address massively important issues like sex trafficking. Presumably if Stringfellow had been denied a license, the residents, the media etc would have forgotten all about the issue.
"If you feel that you are at risk from porn or male domination everytime you step outside your door orswitch on the TV.I would suggest some psychological counseling??"
Obviously you don't understand what I was saying there. I was replying to iosaf's point here:
Stringfellows is a tacky and (in my opinion) unsuitable target for any campaign which seeks to highlight oppression of women, or the reification of sex, [.........]
The barricades of that struggle will not be built there.
I'd prefer to see them built where "violence against women" really occurs. In the home. For as the activists of http://www.ruhama.ie/ ought know, the majority of women who are victims of violence in Irish or European society are attacked
_in the home_ not _on the street_."
Iosaf was not taking into account that the attitudes that allow men to abuse the women in their home are encouraged and supported by societal attitudes towards women as objects of male pleasure. Violence does not occur in a vacuum, it is merely the more extreme end of a whole system of belief that says that women exist to please men. This is why I was trying to point out just how ubiquitous and insidious the pornification of society is and how the attitude that women are sex objects is so prevalent. I don't feel I am "at risk from porn" every time I go out, but I am saying that I am affected by objectification and sexism in everyday life, not just on the bigger things like going for jobs etc.
I also pointed out that when we try to draw attention to how disturbing these attitudes are, we are told - by men - that we are the ones with the problem, that we are a) prudish b) suffering from "ingrained oppression by the church of sexuality still in Ireland" or c) in need of "some psychological counseling"! This is because it's easier to believe these things than to actually admit that you are part of a priviledged class.
FYI I am not a prude, i have a healthy and fulfilling sex life which involves deep love, friendship and mutual respect. But that has nothing to do with this discussion.
I'm not suffering from any ingrained attitudes by "the church" either. I assume you mean the catholic church. I'm not even a catholic, but your assumption that I must be catholic cause i'm irish is very telling of a lack of awareness that life right here in ireland can be experienced so differently by someone else.
And finally, just by the way, I have several friends who are practitioners in the field of psychology. Naturally we've discussed this issue and all of them have responded, "There's nothing wrong with you, you just don't like being treated like a sex object."
As for the rest of your post, well, here we go again with the old cliches. Almost all the classic poorly thought out "counterarguments" -
1. Try to claim equal oppression.
"So violence by women in advertising and degrading mens intelligence is ok then?"
The old "Men are degraded by ads too!" debate is off-topic here, but if you genuinely want to go there, try a Google search or some feminist websites.
Yes, men are sometimes portrayed as domestically incompetent in television adverts. This is to imply that it is not usual or natural for a man to know his way around a washing machine or whatever, and that such things should be left to women who have some kind of natural knowledge of them.
More importantly this portrayal of men as being unsuited to domestic work is not in any way comparable to media representation of women as sex objects which is part of a larger sexual oppression that also includes places like Stringfellows.
2. Back to the old derogatory stereotypes
"If this was used to protray women the more militant femnazis would be doc martining in the doors of the advert company..."
Yes, ladies, if any of you was thinking about maybe mentioning your dissactisfaction with the way society treats you and your kind just because you weren't born with a penis, well you'd better reconsider. Keep your mouth shut because any hint that you might not like having your dignity eroded and you'll be labelled with all the old derogatory stereotypes about "feminazis". Ugly, hairy, doc-marten wearing, man hating dykes. If that doesn't shut you up we'll call you crazy religious agents of a repressive church out to take all the fun out of sex.
Bishop Brennan, play the ball, not the player. If you want to defend the exploitation of women then use rational arguments, instead of just trying to dismiss those who disagree with you with tired backlash stereotypes. That's typical troll behavior.
"Plus domination requires major trust between both parties,not somthing you are going to get between a titillation[excuse the pun] and a commercial transaction."
I dunno who mentioned the word "domination" but I think in the context of this discussion any domination that's relevant is the domination of men over women whether that's by economic or sexual or societal priviledge. Not, as you seem to be referring to, the practice of BDSM.
3. The pointless, "well if you think it's bad here..." remark
You really need to get out of Ireland abit more and see what is for sale in Europes capitals.
This is a seriously flawed "argument". It's verging on pointless. I'm saying I don't like the way women are treated right here in ireland, and you respond by assuming I've never been anywhere else and helpfully pointing out that we have it worse in other countries. Of course we do. Strip clubs in Ireland aren't oppressing women to the tragic degree that the Taliban have. So what's your point? By your logic would you tell a black man who is being discriminated against at his job to just shut up and count his blessings because in the old days he could have been lynched?
4. It's not against the law, so it's okay.
Cf. ""wait and see"if any crime is committed.
Then you might have a ligit gripe."
We have a legitimate cause for complaint right now. Not "a light gripe" but a serious and demonstrable problem with the way that society treats and represents women.
"Fine,leave us to watch women who want to be there,making money wave their real or otherwise bits in our faces and be fleeced in the process.Domination,how do you dominate a lap dancer?"
- How do you know they want to be there? Is it cause they're good at doing their job? They're paid to pretend they like the customers. It wouldn't get them anywhere to tell you that they really think you're pathetic. Do you think all the women hanging around on street corners to get into strangers' cars want to be there? Those women are selling their dignity to you and your boozed up pals and you actually have the nerve to complain that the price is too high?
Pro Choice. Pro Sex. Pro Women,
I asked why this club was being singled out in particular and you claim that it is because the protestors wanted to stop it opening and stop it being granted a license. This is obviously not the case, as protests continue outside this club even though it is now open. So again I ask, why do people object to this club more than others?
Then I went on to question why protestors gave so much hype to the opening. You claim it was in order to stop the club opening.....but the club is now open, and people are still highlighting its locatation by standing outside it ( only when its closed for some reason). There are now maybe 10 of these clubs in Dublin, and only one is being protested against. Can you explain why that is?
" I've suggested a "women's" section on the newswire, because looking back over our archives, it is obvious there is a need for gender politics to be afforded a section. "
Yes. Let's herd the wimmin off into their own section and then we can get on with furthering our own concerns without having to listen to them. After all it's not like their problems are anywhere near as important as ours.
But seriously, I really think that's a bad idea. There is no shortage of feminist / women - friendly space on the internet, but separating "women's issues" from the mainstream is only another manifestation of the construction of woman as "other" and this makes it easier to think of them as "inferior". To emphasize the differences between "us" and "them" is the first step towards enabling a group to be oppressed in a manner that we ourselves would not tolerate, but which we can live with by telling ourselves "Ah sure it's good enough for them".
If you want to make society a better place for everyone - women, men, children of all races - then there are two equally important courses of action you must work on. One is to raise the consciousness of the oppressed. Show the working class exactly how the rich keep them down, for example. The other is to let the priviledged class know that the status quo is not acceptable and that you want it changed. A seperate forum for women is great for the consciousness raising but using it in this context makes it too easy for anyone who doesn't want his male - centric thinking challenged to just ignore them.
Incidentally, this is one of the reasons to protest Stringfellows and strip clubs in general. If the law, whose ostensible purpose is to civilise society and protect the vulnerable, does not expressly forbid the exploitation of women and the erosion of their dignity, it's implying that this is normal and acceptable. Silence implies consent or indifference at best. Standing right there in front of a locus of this destructive attitute towards half the population is an excellent place to visibly demonstrate that this way of treating women is not acceptable to everyone. Sitting in your living room with a bunch of other women and discussing the implications of "pornification" on women and society may help to crystallise your own views, but as long as you're safely stowed away indoors and the blokes are all down at the lap dance club, nothing's going to change and none of the club's guests is going to have his comfortable "I'm alright, jack" attitude challenged.
If you feel that you are at risk from porn or male domination everytime you step outside your door orswitch on the TV.I would suggest some psychological counseling??
Also you obvisouly havent watched or listened to TV ads o these days?Men are being protrayed as somthing in intelligence below a neanderthal,who cant figure out how a washing machine or domestic appliance works.If this was used to protray women the more militant femnazis would be doc martining in the doors of the advert company who put this ad out.Remember the famous ad for some skanky British car in where a bloke is lying on the ground clutching his nuts in front of the car while a woman walks off.Caption reads Ask before you borrow it. The British advert standards refused to withdraw it sayig it was harmless.So violence by women in advertising and degrading mens intelligence is ok then?Fine,leave us to watch women who want to be there,making money wave their real or otherwise bits in our faces and be fleeced in the process.Domination,how do you dominate a lap dancer?Plus domination requires major trust between both parties,not somthing you are going to get between a titillation[excuse the pun] and a commercial transaction.
Plus if you are so worried about what people classify as top shelf porn mags here.You really need to get out of Ireland abit more and see what is for sale in Europes capitals.Trouble here is still alot of people cant handle the ingrained oppression by the church of sexuality still in Ireland.
Anyway Stringfellows is open,so guess we will all have to et used to it,and as that wise judge said,"wait and see"if any crime is committed.
Then you might have a ligit gripe.
Just to clarify, as Iosaf mentioned, I too have been on Mediterranean beaches and nude ones for that matter. But I don't feel that this isa problem because it is in the correct kind of context. There is no money changing hands, no endless amount of artificial breasts, both sexes are there side by side and I have to say that it is a much healthier way of treating nudity.
Succumbing to male fantasies of domination, degradation or subservient acts does not make it right.
So, like I said, I tend to be quite broad minded and will try most things once but like the previous writer says, just walking into a newsagent these days and being bombarded by shelves and shelves of varying degrees of porn is extremely worrying and is sending the wrong message out to kids who are also being exposed to this so called "top shelf" content.
Isn't it very strange that men aren't being exploited in the media in this fashion. I can't really understand why not. maybe someone could enlighten me........
I don't think I'm belittling the suffering coz i linked three times to the group who claim to be working on that issue. I've suggested a "women's" section on the newswire, because looking back over our archives, it is obvious there is a need for gender politics to be afforded a section.
over the christmas holidays i published in "other press" a report from an internet monitoring service in the USA on "gender and internet". It was quite interesting, pointed out how differently men and women see emails, websites, and respond on both cognitive and emotional levels to web-based opinion or discussion.
It was removed from the other press section. I think all those interested in "gender" and "women" ought join to support the inclusion of a section for those articles. So that this area of our common concern and campaigns and search for rights be reflected by articles and contributions. In the last days I've learnt that many women have not published here, because they refuse to post their articles in "misc".
Now as for the comment i made on "life modelling" i would have thought there was clue enough in that, that i have been and continue to be "proximate" to those who have chosen careers in the "sex trade" and since I am the main contributor on "gender" issues who is neither female or male homosexual to this site, i would have thought it is obvious I've given as much attention to the complexity of these issues as any other in "my magical bag of tricks".
In BCN our most recent campaign to stop the "anti-social" laws saw us champion the rights of amongst others street traders and sex workers. We split the city's government on that, and even after the laws were accepted they remained "off the statue book" for a further month. It is obvious that they have been "watered down" in application if not letter, and we await the tourist season to see how they work out. Several examples of the poster and leaflet produced for that campaign were sent to Dublin. If you're on the "grass roots scene" you could find one. It asks "prostitution - dignity or exploitation?". A question as much asked from Wolstencraft to today. I very much want the women on this site to ask and answer it.
let's get that door open.
"any man who pays to see an ass he can not enjoy contact with is exploited"
Don't belittle the suffering of the women and children who have been traficked and/or abused in the sex industry by claiming that the customers who create the demand are somehow the victims. It's especially insulting that you seem to be comparing your experiences posing as an art model to the experiences of the real victims of the commercialisation of sex.
Marie, I agree 100%.
2) Why single out strip clubs at all? Why not protest in any of the citys red light districts, where women are at much greater risk? Why not protest outside sex shops which stock videos of women being degraded in much more serious ways than in Stringfellows?
Red light districts: Prostitution is already illegal. Lap dancing isn't. As far as the law is concerned, it is perfectly okay to run an establishment whose sole purpose is to give men a place to oppress women. What kind of message do you think this is sending to society?
And sex shops, well, not everyone who opposes strip clubs opposes sex shops per se. It is possible to run a sex shop that doesn't contribute to the miserable situation of women / the economic underclass / whoever. If you want to buy a vibrator, or some flavoured lube or even a gimp mask, who are you hurting? A strip club, on the other hand, is a place of employment on Irish soil whose sole mission is to objectify women and make money out of it. Its workers and any laws protecting them and their dignity are the responsibility of the Irish government. And preventing the opening of one more strip club is worth doing if you have the opportunity.
I totally agree that a lot of porn is extremely degarding to women, and it contributes just as much if not more to their vulnerability to violence. But porn of varying degrees is all over the place, literally.* Remember that Lynx ad on the Luas with the women in lingerie?
Why single out this club?
In this case the question of whether the strip club would open or not depended on Stringfellow's being granted a licence. Since the decision of whether or not to grant the licence could be influenced by factors like opposition from local residents, proximity to schools, likelihood of nuisance caused by clients etc. it would make sense, if you didn't want the club, to be as vocal as possible about these things and you might have a chance of preventing the club opening. Yeah there are already strip clubs. They have licences already, they're already open,so protesting them wouldn't have as dramatic an influence.
3) Why help Stringfellows by protesting? If it hadn't been for the protestors there would have been much less media hype....which in turn would have ment less visitors to the club, which ultimately would have reduced the number of women working there.
Oh please. Assuming that's true, (which i'm not) Possibility of preventing the club from opening at all vs. possibility of having 20 women exploited instead of 30? Screw that. The people affected by this club and all the other clubs like it are not just the women who work there and are directly affected. Strip clubs affect the whole area around them. For example their clients are not necessarily going to distinguish between a young one in the club and a young one passing by on the street, except that if they grope a young one in the street they won't be thrown around by a massive bouncer. The objectification of women doesn't just affect the strippers / dancers, it affects all women in society. It affects children and men too, just not as obviously.
Iosaf: The only place I am safe from the relentless sexual aggression of strangers is in the home. As soon as i step outside the door I know I can expect the following on a daily basis: leering, harassment, unwanted physical contact, the threat of social opprobrium if I fail to take this harassment as a "compliment", even the threat of actual physical harm. While wondering why strange men think that shouting at me in the street is going to somehow make me want to perform sex acts on them, I take refuge in a shop and have a look around. That's when all the porn and porn-lite of the magazine racks make me realise that it is impossible for most people to go about their daily business without being bombarded with images of women being held up as sex objects and only sex objects. As Marie points out, this is disturbing from a woman's point of view, but many of us find ourselves dismissively labelled as "prudes" or "holy Janes" if we have the effrontery to try to "spoil the fun" by pointing out that we find it offensive.
*Seriously, go into a newsagent in the city centre and start at the bottom shelf and move up. The tabloids on the floor with the Page 3 girls, up to Nuts and Loaded, through FHM and Maxim, not to mention all the car magazines and whatever, all the way to the "actual" porn. All of them are promoting the same basic ideas, it's just that some are more graphic and blatant. All of them are promoting the idea of women as sexual objects, put here to be used by men; all of them are trying to make money off the commercialization of sex, and so on...This is in every single shop that sells newspaper or magazines. A physical protest ,centred on a single location, is going to be pointless, like shooting arrows at the sea or something.
I can't help but comment on an insidious trend all around us in society to glamourise sleaze and porn. All one has to do is turn on Sky any evening to be confronted with the most tacky programmes where they attempt to glamourise industries whereby women promote themselves as prostitutes or playboy models or even participants in swinging clubs. I have to say I thankfully don't have any children so don't run the risk of them switching on channels like this and being exposed to this type of cheap, imported skank. But if I did I woud be seriously worried, especially when I have only opted for the most basic of sky packages. They still manage to throw all thse unwanted channels in.
From a woman's point of view it is a bit disturbing that places like Stringfellows are again glamourised as if they were high class establishments instead of what they really represent which is the exploitation of women to serve the basic voyeuristic needs of men. Don't get me wrong. I like to consider myself as openminded but I worry about this subtle shift in society where you can now watch any amount of naked women any evening on television, many with artificial sized breasts,creating an idea that this is somehow normal and socially accepted.
What is the purpose of it for the viewer?
-It provides entertainment.
Why does any person require a prewiew a naket body?
-They don't require it, they desire it. It's a pretty basic instinct.
What sort of thought process is going on inside the mind of the viewer?
-Who knows, depends on the viewer
What makes such a viewer require a naked body to get their "kicks".
-It's instinct for men to get sexual kicks from the visual stimulus of a naked body.
Now can one of these protestors answer my questions :
1) Why single out stringfellows instead of any of the other clubs in Dublin. Do you really think what goes on in Stringfellows will be worse than what goes on in other clubs? Is it simply because you don't like Peter Stringfellow?
2) Why single out strip clubs at all? Why not protest in any of the citys red light districts, where women are at much greater risk? Why not protest outside sex shops which stock videos of women being degraded in much more serious ways than in Stringfellows?
3) Why help Stringfellows by protesting? If it hadn't been for the protestors there would have been much less media hype....which in turn would have ment less visitors to the club, which ultimately would have reduced the number of women working there.
4) Why protest only when the club is closed??? None of the customers, dancers or management will see you. Is this protest more about preaching than achieving something ?
Thank you for affording me the opportunity to voice my views.
I honestly believe that this type of behaviour is degrading whither it is men or women who are being exploited and it is exploitation regardless of what name you label it under.
What is the purpose of it for the viewer?
Why does any person require a prewiew a naket body?
What sort of thought process is going on inside the mind of the viewer?
What makes such a viewer require a naked body to get their "kicks".
Surely there are more worthwhile pursuits to enjoy.
May I finally say to people who frequent those places "get a grip, you are portraying an immature and silly attitude, grow up".
Tess
the opening of Stringfellows represents a consolidation of an identified market in Dublin and wider Irish society for what is termed the "sex trade". I want to point out that the "sex trade" has not developed with the arrival of the "lap top club" it was around long before, and for the most part ignored.
There are many aspects of sexuality and gender politics which are being overlooked. What are we to say to those men and women (of a pretty typical labour market profile) who did not become "beefed up action actors" or "top broadway dancers" and instead pay their rent and make their way through "burlesque" or "erotic dance"?
What are we to say to those individuals who enjoy exhibitionism or the foucaltian power play which erotica and porn involve? I for one living in walking distance of a mediterranean beach and within 40 minutes metro ride of nudist beaches don't really understand the fuss of seeing someone earn a living by shaking their ass. I also maintain that any man who pays to see an ass he can not enjoy contact with is exploited. Perhaps this is because through my long life I have learned that sex, erotica, sexuality, sexual display, so on so forth do not readily fit into easy boxes.
I repeat my opinion that Stringfellows was not the right venue to lauch a campaign on "sex trade awareness" or promote the agenda of a group which works with those who have found only misery and not fulfillment in their involvement in the sex trade, or were coerced into the sector by human trafficking. I myself, many years ago when short of cash worked as a "life model" and found myself striking adonis poses and yoga asana ( on request) in front of middle aged ladies in a middle class suburb of an Italian city. I shared the two hour shift with a portuguese girl whose piercings seemed to really "turn on" the aesthetic awarenes of the ladies watching. But of course that was "art". But if I had been a bit more at the "muscle" end of the spectrum and been wearing something scanty and the music in the background had been funkier, I too could have been considered a "sex worker".
There are many important issues here, no doubt about it. But I do not believe they have yet found either the right venue or expression, or the right connections to other facets of our common struggle against Capitalism, Exploitation, Materialism and so on. for in truth, Joe Ratzinger could have approved of this protest, it coming bang and square under his "eros" encyclical agenda.
I'd appreciate reading the words or testimony of a worker in one of these places, preferably the ones that have for so long gone "un-noticed", where the man gets much more for his money, and the word "F-u-c-k" really does come into it.
sin é. I'll give it a rest now. I'm more worried about the muslims.
love women. love men. love sex. love erotica. the tourist is the terrorist.
the slave won't be found in stringfellows. Find him / her and set him / her free.
& You'll be surprised how little a prude he or she is.
The vast majority of women harmed are harmed in the home. Since New Year 2006 more women have been murdered in Europe in the home than have died in car crashes. In the first two weeks of January alone 16 women were murdered by their partners in the Spanish state alone.
This protest was (in my opinion) misguided, one which picked up on a NIMBYist agenda and attempted to make a wider "gender political point" on violence to women and trafficking.
There have been brothels in Dublin forever. But in recent modern history any fan of the "Irish criminal genre movie" will remember the role played by brothel keepers in Veronica Guerin's career and murder. To my knowledge not one of those brothels was ever protested or even graffiti tagged.
Perhaps they were too hard a target?
Thus, the women who actually live and work in "exploitation" have not been supported except when they chose (like Bertie Ahern) to go to All Hallows for "spiritual advice".
I repeat I condone anyone who fights human trafficking. But that means all human trafficing.
And I feel that the stringfellow establishment will exploit men more than women and doubt that the labour rights or other sundry conditions of the workers within will be abused to the extent of those who work the street or in brothels.
We can not treat on "sex workers" in any of thier forms in this way. To talk of only one "gender" is unfair. Why has no-one made the parallel connection to supermodels? Are their calenders not exploitative?
if you don't think I made my point, read it again. at this link which will bring you back up the page-
http://indymedia.ie/article/74045#comment136847
ruled the world..Hmm intresting comment,is that why I wonder we have polls on politicans for their sex appeal???considering that when Bill Clinton ran for office,most women voted for him because he looked sexy???Or our Bertie is rated as the sexiest politico in Ireland?Or is it more because of the power they weild.As to the non oil paintings from Ruhma etc.There is no choice between them and what was in Stringfellows.Now maybe if they had had an ex poledancer,porn star,or hooker,who was exploited and sold as a sex slave etc etc.They might have a better chance of selling their arguement.So it brings down the quality of the area???Blatant snobbery.Ever wonderd why most of these places are located in the rougher,more crime ridden areas of major cities.Because most want this sort of thing hidden away.NIMBYism at it's best.
Dont worry though.Dublin has a looooonggg way to go before it is anything like Amsterdam or Brussells.Or even the US where this kind of thing is really frowned upon.Plus their strip bars are not such blatant rippoffs as here in Ireland.Nor do you have Big Bob and Burly Ben standing behind you polishing their knuckle dusters whilst some nice bit of stuff wriggles her bits in front of you.In the hope you make a grab for her.Very erotic I must say.
Europe the girls actually grab your hands and insist you feel the quality.And at a cheaper price than rippoff Ireland has to offer.
There are plenty of strip clubs in Dublin ..... why is this one being singled out?
It can't be location because :
1) There was a strip club at the same location before Stringfellows moved in
2) There are ten or twelve sex shops within a five minute walk.
It can't be content beause all the nearby sex shop stock much more degrading items.....take a walk in someday and you'll be surprised at what you'll find.
So my questions to the "protestors" are :
1) Why single out stringfellows instead of any of the other clubs in Dublin. Do you really think what goes on in Stringfellows will be worse than what goes on in other clubs? Is it simply because you don't like Peter Stringfellow?
2) Why single out strip clubs at all? Why not protest in any of the citys red light districts, where women are at much greater risk? Why not protest outside sex shops which stock videos of women being degraded in much more serious ways than in Stringfellows?
3) Why help Stringfellows by protesting? If it hadn't been for the protestors there would have been much less media hype....which in turn would have ment less visitors to the club, which ultimately would have reduced the number of women working there.
"How exactly does paying someone to show you her arse constitute being exploited? "
I think Iosaf means, and I could be wrong, that maybe their should be a bit of a class analysis involved? Not saying that paying someone show you her arse constitutes being exploited.
What prospects of developing struggle do you see coming from this campaign against stringfellows? I think he's suggesting maybe linking up with people in this campaign if possible, but that maybe efforts against patriarchy might be better focused elsewhere.
nerraw: see above posts re what exactly is wrong with strip clubs. There's nothing wrong with naked women. There's nothing wrong with women. At least there wouldn't be if men didn't keep exploiting them.
"Empowerment" is not about a minority of women making money by waving their arses in front of some rich lecherous gobshite. The original meaning of the word "empower" was "to invest with authority". Women all over the world have consistently less authority and power than men. Obviously this is a very complex issue but a huge part of it is down to women being consistently assigned value as human beings based on how much some bloke might be prepared to pay to use them for his sexual kicks.
For example: "It would also help if some of the anti stringfellow crowd had some good looking folks on their side.Their spokeswomen are no great oil paintings."
Apparently the opinions of women are only to be listened to when they are "good looking". This attitude is actually so common that we hardly even notice it, disturbingly enough. Imagine if people only listened to what "good looking" men said. Ashton Kutcher would run the world.
iosaf you are missing the point. Violence against women occurs everywhere. A culture that condones the objectification of women's bodies - whether that's the Catholic Church telling them they are here to have babies, or the new "liberal" Ireland telling them they are here for men's pleasure - is a culture that condones and encourages violence against women. Strip clubs - all of them - are a huge part of the pornification of society. They are about more than economic exploitation.
And as for the "equal economic exploitation of the men who attend such establishments." get a grip. How exactly does paying someone to show you her arse constitute being exploited?
Oh, and Mark. Domestic violence against anyone, be it women, children or men, should be totally unacceptable. But that's completely off topic. How are lap dance clubs a factor in the sexual victimisation of men?
We should do our utmost to protect all victims of domestic violence - and that includes men.
Why does society continue to ignore the violence that women can inflict on men in domestic situations?
I commend "ruhama" on their work, and attempts to bring attention to human trafficking especially of women. But I'm not sure that protesting "stringfellows" is the best way to bring attention to those issues or rather the way their protest has been reported here at least, and I am unaware of any other coverage of the event.
http://www.ruhama.ie/
As a libertarian socialist in the "Barcelona republican tradition of the 1st international" I have perhaps an obsessive at times need to place every development of our struggles in the context of history.
I believe that in most recent years the reality of reification and internalisation which Capitalism and Materialism has brought, is so instilled that we may not comfortably discuss one facet of oppression in "gender political terms" alone.
In Europe, the plight of the prostitute may not be properly addressed without recognition of the "professionalism" of the sex worker.
For as many women in genuine need and exploitation helped by "ruhama" at All Hallows in Dublin, there have been other women, men, transexuals and/or transvestites who have seen their rights to pursue a "career" curtailed by State or Municipal authorities. That is an intolerable wrong.
The 2nd of may of 1936, the first edition of the magazine MUJERES LIBRES went to the streets of Spain. Where the essential ideas which drove that collective and their actions, were harvested. in Barcelona, M.L. (free women) put in gear the "Casal de la Dona Treballadora" ("the house of the working woman"), between 600 and 800 such women attended, and midwifed the creation of a nursing school and the Louise Michel maternal infant institute. the Womens' Congress; Free & Libertarian. Those women, Lucía Sánchez Saornil (author of the "women's anthem C/f http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/196122 ):: Mercè Comaposada Guillén :: Ampar Poch Gascón :: Soledad Estorach :: Pepita Carpena :: Sara Berenguer :: Pepita Estruch :: María Jiménez :: Pura Pérez :: Suceso Portales :: Azucena Fernández :: Antonia Fontanillas :: Conxa Pérez :: Concha Liaño :: Lola Iturbe :: Carmen Conde :: Pilar Grangel :: Aurea Cuadrado :: Concha Guillén :: Antonia Fontanillas :: Isabel Mesa Delgado :: Belén Sárraga :: are the models for remembrance whence to learn and the women of the Libertarian Socialist and Anarchist tradition.
& they of course walked in the foot steps of Mary Wollstonecraft, (1759-1797) the mother to Mary Shelley, and Isadora Duncan (herself a dancer of burlesque) 1878-1927 and were exact contemporaries of Emma Goldman 1869-1940.
Without dwelling on the "burlesque" of Wollstonecraft, Duncan or others, let me remind you of Goldman's prostitution.
It is noteworthy that the much of the most objections to the 2nd republic which prompted the Coup d'etat of Franco were made in response to the work and actions and reforms supported by those women in general and by Federica Montseny in particular.
In short without going off topic too much, Stringfellows is a tacky and (in my opinion) unsuitable target for any campaign which seeks to highlight oppression of women, or the reification of sex, as much as to point out that equal economic exploitation of the men who attend such establishments.
The barricades of that struggle will not be built there.
I'd prefer to see them built where "violence against women" really occurs. In the home. For as the activists of http://www.ruhama.ie/ ought know, the majority of women who are victims of violence in Irish or European society are attacked
_in the home_ not _on the street_.
I hope that the activists who supported the action reported above can find some common ground with the activists who fight for the true emancipation of all humanity that we may hold the door open for all. And thus look forward to their next actions.
I am a victim in the home not the street.
."...any flagrant displays of exclusion in working class areas."
When the fuck did this become a class thing? Do you have some kind of cartoon idea of rich toffs showing off shamelessly in front of the down-trodden poor. Get a grip for fucks sake. Yes this place is pretty sleazy, however, it's a free country and you'll get as many 'working class' (a meaningless label nowadays) people in there as anybody else.
What is wrong with naked women? Surely it is empowering for the ladies working at the club to make money through the use of their natural attributes.
IT's all a bit Father Ted. There are plenty of other strip clubs in Dublin that have yet to see a duffel clad protester.
Down with this sort of thing
"This protest is a joke."Sexual objectification is not a joke. Sexual violence isn't all that funny either.
"The holy Janes and Joes are out moaning about sexual degradadion and exploitation of "wimmin"."
Plenty of people object to women being exploited, whatever their religious beliefs. Characterising and stereotyping protesters right off the bat shows that you are not interested in listening to their objections at all, just defensively attacking anyone who even suggests that maybe strip clubs are not really about healthy sexual expression.
Lap dancing clubs are just another more obvious example of the kind of objectification of women that you can see every day in irish society. They are a target for protest because they are so blatant in their purpose: to make money by reducing women to sexual objects, and because they are part of the chain of supply and demand that leads to sex trafficking. That doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't want strip clubs around automatically wants everyone to stop enjoying sex. We want respect for women. Why does that frighten you so much, "Bishop Brennan"?
"Besides the way the Left stands up for Muslim suicide bombers and fanatical clerics who clad women head to toe in burkas and never criticise the culture of "honor killings""
what lefty stands up for that? maybe you mean the SWP and their links with the Mullahs. I think you will find that the rest of the left stand up for womens rights and do not support suicide bombers.
Islamic culture should be criticised in so far as it is anti woman , antigay and undemocratic. No culture is above criticism. To make such criticisms is not racist but is a defining factor for democrats and socialists. After spending so long fighting the catholic mullahs we should not bow now before the islamic ones.
" im not suprised that they want to stop men and women from having harmless fun here in Ireland."
Its not harmless fun, women are being exploited, studies show that such clubs lead to prostitutionn and attract unsavoury elements to the area. The local community atre opposed to this club. I was along at the demo last night, there were some YD members present but the vast majority were local residents.
Yesterdays edition of above mentioned shitrag were very concerned about the level of violence expected at protest - seemingly there were gong to be armed guards, crowd infiltrators etc deployed to make sure no harm came to the scaly-skinned pimp. No doubt plenty of usual lying sensationalism involved but it does illustrate the underlying ethos that idle rich parasitism has the state at it's disposal to aggressively protect any flagrant displays of exclusion in working class areas.
What the hell is the problem?
We all came into the world naked.
There is nothing on this earth more beautiful than a naked woman.
This protest is a joke.
"Down with that sort of thing!" and "Careful now!"
Besides the way the Left stands up for Muslim suicide bombers and fanatical clerics who clad women head to toe in burkas and never criticise the culture of "honor killings" im not suprised that they want to stop men and women from having harmless fun here in Ireland.
Where exactly did you get the connection with pro-choice activists and anti-Stringfellow protesters? Just wondering cos from the other article on the newswire I gathered it was Youth Defence that had connections with the protests. They created some sort of front group to protest against the movie '9 Songs' last year.
A few years ago you were all yelling get your rosaries of our ovaries.Now when women and men who are not afraid of their bodies and want to make some money doing somthing they like.The holy Janes and Joes are out moaning about sexual degradadion and exploitation of "wimmin".Not only that it is intresting to see the pro choice lot has almost changed sides on this issue.It would also help if some of the anti stringfellow crowd had some good looking folks on their side.Their spokeswomen are no great oil paintings.Anyway must be off to the opening night.hope Mr Stringfellow gets a few more clubs opened in Ireland.
nip this in the bud.
we'll have naked oiled up men parading around in thongs for the delight of the bored housewife if not. and they'll probably me foreigner men too. Your lap is for your computer.
nip this in the bud