Article on Shannon and CIA in Cork Evening Echo by Fintan Lane

by True Dub Mon Dec 19, 2005 15:33

Is de Cork Evening Echo De Paper or anudder paper? Same group as De Examiner, is it?

Gud article.

(Always good to hear from de provincial press)

by James Mon Dec 19, 2005 16:15

Nice article Fintan, good to see a decent analysis getting in the corporate press.

Ps, what's with the little black & red flag on the ISN website. Is there a libertarian infilitrator amongst you? If so, he's doing a bad job, what with the campaign for an independent left and all :)

by Curious Surfer Mon Dec 19, 2005 17:26

"Ps, what's with the little black & red flag on the ISN website."

I've looked a couple of times and can't see it myself. I've seen quite a few red ones though?

by James Mon Dec 19, 2005 17:30

It's only viewable in Firefox, not in internet explorer. Very crafty!

by Colm - ISN personal capacity Mon Dec 19, 2005 23:40

Little black n red flags, or red flags for that matter, do not prove anything. The ISN is as democratic as any 'libertarian' organisation (and more democratic than some). Just have a look at our constitution and talk to anyone in grassroots campaigns who has worked with the ISN. You might note the fact that the ISN has no 'leadership' bodies and that all policies/tactics etc are decided by all the members collectively. Ok so you dont agree with the ISN involvement in building a broad party, thats an argument for another day, but I fail to see how this suddenly means the ISN are baddies. The ISN has consistently opposed authoritarian/elitist tendencies on the left. And that includes so-called 'libertarians' who think a revolution is about wearing black and painting Connollys statue as well as leninists who think they have all the answers if only the stupid proles would fall into line.

Personally I think the WSM's position on elections is mistaken but it doesnt lead me to the conclusion that the WSM should be condemned or that it is not composed of genuine comrades with whom I have a good deal in common. Words like libertarian can be bandied about easily, what matters is not the colour of your flag or labels but what you do and ISN (like the WSM) is second to none when it comes to engaging in direct action and class struggle campaigning as well as internal democracy.

by James Tue Dec 20, 2005 00:26

Colm:
“Ok so you dont agree with the ISN involvement in building a broad party, thats an argument for another day, but I fail to see how this suddenly means the ISN are baddies.”

You're right, it doesn't mean the ISN baddies at all. In fact the ISN justly have a reputation for being honest. It's just not libertarian.

Personally I think the ISN's position on elections is mistaken but it doesn't lead me to the conclusion that the ISN should be condemned or that it is not composed of genuine comrades with whom I have a good deal in common.

Colm:
“Words like libertarian can be bandied about easily, what matters is not the colour of your flag or labels but what you do and ISN (like the WSM) is second to none when it comes to engaging in direct action and class struggle campaigning as well as internal democracy.”

As socialists you know that words get misused and over time become discredited. Socialism itself suffered such a fate at the hand of the Leninists. “Libertarian” and indeed “anarchist” are in danger of the same fate. Words should have a common meaning or they're useless.

Engagement in direct action, class struggle campaigning as well as internal democracy are necessary but not sufficient aspects of libertarian socialism. Another vital aspect is consistent anti-state socialism. While I'm unsure of the ISN's position (is there one published?) on the role of the state in a revolutionary situation, the support for electoral politics is clearly outside what libertarian socialists have stood for since the 1st International. And it indicates a certain line of thought with regard to the state. That doesn't make the ISN “baddies”, or even wrong; just not libertarian.

And yeah, obviously not every libertarian is a model of good politics and I'd feel closer to the ISN than some 'anarchists'.

Still, black and red are nice colours and go well together.

by Sean Tue Dec 20, 2005 13:39

The anarchist attitude to democracy is so crude. If the form in situ isn't spot on, we're meant to ignore it and snigger at those using it to make their voices heard. Reminds me of a line by Leonard Cohen - which I've momentarily forgotten! (Less Carling tonight I think.)

by James Tue Dec 20, 2005 14:15

Except that state elections are quite unrelated to democracy, so ignoring them isn't ignoring democracy. It’s top-down bureaucratic chain of command, that rotates the people at the top, first tweedledum and then tweedledee. So the problem isn’t that isn’t perfect – no system will ever be - it is that isn’t democratic. Anarchists merely claim that participation in the charade detracts from advancing libertarian socialism, which requires people to act for themselves. Having other people do the acting for you is in plain contradiction to that.

Actually, I doubt the ISN view elections all that differently. However, they feel, as far as I can tell, that participating in elections can be useful for propaganda, and while I can see the truth in this, don’t think it outweighs the negatives. It also, to repeat, indicates a certain line of thought with regard to the state, which libertarians are very skeptical of.

by Paul (personal capacity) - ISN Tue Dec 20, 2005 14:37

I know this thread was supposed to be originally about an article on Shannon and Ireland's complicity in the USUK war but may I add to the diversion by asking a question seen as how the subject of websites has arisen.
Any chance of updating the Get Up Stand Up website? James if you are not in the WSM I apologise for the question.

by James - WSM Tue Dec 20, 2005 14:52

That's the other James, I think. The talented guy. Thanks for confusing us. I'm honoured.

by me Tue Dec 20, 2005 20:55

Anarchists are basically liberal individualists. I think their view of elections always shows that up: For 'libertarian' read 'individualism' and, though most won't admit it, anti-collectivism.

by J Tue Dec 20, 2005 21:24

Because it's not true. Anarchists aren't individualists, as any mild interest in the history of the labour movement shows. That's why anarchists are generally “anarchist-communists” and have been involved in setting up militant trade unions which is the exact opposite of individualism. But next time try advancing an argument backed by evidence. It's more impressive than ignorance, even mercifully brief ignorance.

As Emma Goldman pointed out, "'rugged individualism'. . . is only a masked attempt to repress and defeat the individual and his individuality. So-called Individualism is the social and economic laissez-faire: the exploitation of the masses by the [ruling] classes by means of legal trickery, spiritual debasement and systematic indoctrination of the servile spirit . . . That corrupt and perverse 'individualism' is the straitjacket of individuality . . [It] has inevitably resulted in the greatest modern slavery, the crassest class distinctions driving millions to the breadline. 'Rugged individualism' has meant all the 'individualism' for the masters, while the people are regimented into a slave caste to serve a handful of self-seeking 'supermen.'" [Red Emma Speaks, p. 112]

And our absence from state elections proves the exact opposite I would have thought. Change isn't brought about a 'decent' individuals but by mass direct action. That is, collective action.

by Belfield Belle Tue Dec 20, 2005 21:26

Hi luvvies, are you all having a jolly nice chit chat, no hostility, no disagreements! James darling I noticed you said that the ISN have a reputation for being honest. Are you sure you are not mistaken their lack of principle or a backbone for honesty. The ISN believe that there is more that unites us than divides us and disagreements should be put to one side. They agree with everyone and avoid arguments because it does not really matter - we are all lefties aren't we luvvies!
I heard Denis Donaldson was looking for a new political home maybe he should apply to the ISN. Oh sorry forgot ex-provo and ex-stickies, ex-DL and ex-IRSP not a good combination.

by Curious friend of the ISN - Of the anarchist kind Tue Dec 20, 2005 21:50

"James darling I noticed you said that the ISN have a reputation for being honest. Are you sure you are not mistaken their lack of principle or a backbone for honesty. The ISN believe that there is more that unites us than divides us and disagreements should be put to one side. They agree with everyone and avoid arguments because it does not really matter - we are all lefties aren't we luvvies!"

Lack of principle and backbone?
Care to elaborate?
A disgruntled leninist I would say who is pissed of with their sense of principle and backbone.

by J Tue Dec 20, 2005 22:03

It is possible to think the another political group is mistaken – as, for example, the ISN and WSM do of each other on particular points, but still respect each others' integrity and commitment.

>Are you sure you are not mistaken their lack of principle or a backbone for honesty.
Are you sure you haven't mistaken sneering for wit?

> Belfield Belle
presumably you're a UCD head? In which case you're probably continuing to confuse me with the talented one. And don't they insist on proper grammar out there anymore?

by Disko Kid Tue Dec 20, 2005 23:14

Fintan Lane: Sixty days in prison for breaching fench at Shannon airport during anti-war protest.

John O Neill, Colm Breathnach, Bernie Hughes: Two weeks in prisons for defying bin truck blockade injunction.

Paul Moloney, Colm Breathnach: Guilty and costs awarded against them for illegal picketing in City Jet dispute.

ISN members lacking backbone? When did you last defy the law and pay the price Belfield Belle?

by Belfield Belle Wed Dec 21, 2005 00:15

Fintan Lane ex-IRSP and former supporter of the INLA
John O'Neill ex-WP and former supporter of criminals in Official IRA
Colm Breathnach ex-WP and had a little trip to North Korea to support Kim Il Sung
Paul Moloney never heard of him

I am also an ex-prisoner having spent time in the sin bin in a rugger match!

by Curious Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:22

Do you only come at Christmas now?

by Bon Belle Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:37

Thanks for the info Miss Posionous Belfield Belle, if its true of course.

Sound like serious activists who put themselves at risk. Respect!

All three are seriously respected activists and I don't see sour grapes from some anonymous leninist changing that. You wouldn't be an SWP or SP member aiming to undermine the ISN for purely sectarian reasons? Doh!

by Anthony Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:05

Not hard to see what going on here.

If there's anything that freaks out a Trot, it's other socialists who rejects Leninism and Democratic Centralism. Hence they hate the WSM (anarchists) and the ISN (democratic Marxists).

The leading ISN members listed in Baffled Belfield's snarky posting all have reputations for being anti-sectarian. Ms Belfield should try following their example.

by BB Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:39

would belfield belle be an ex member of RSF then, alongwith bbb?

by John O'Neill - ISN Personal Capacity Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:55

I was in NK aswell, part of a WP delegation to the World Festival of Democratic Youth.

And for the Belle's information so were a delegation from Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, the CPI, some Labour people (not sure if they were officially a delegation or there with the CPI group)Sinn Fein (they had two - through a support group in England). Along with a couple of hundred delegations from all over the world. Anyone else? Oh yes almost forgot, a member of the Socialist Party from NI attended as part of an ICTU delegation if Im not mistaken.

by Colm Breathnach - ISN personal capacity Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:08 breathc at hotmail dot com 087-9487554

It is obvious from most posts on this thread that there is a serious debate to be had amongst genuine activists on a number of important issues: What exactly do we mean by libertarian socialist? Should radical leftists get involved in elections? Is there a need for a broad party of the left?. In response to James I accept most of your points and yes I was a bit over-agitated in claiming that you were categorising the ISN as 'baddies'. The only point I have serious disagreement with you is on the question of whether involvement in elections precludes an organisation from being described as 'libertarian socialists', even though the ISN does not use that term. Ive said this before, and I know many comrades disagree with me, but I dont think its possible to have debates like this on indymedia because of the intervention of people whose only pupose is to stir shit or troll. On a positive note, maybe a discussion could be organised on one or all of these topics by the ISN/WSM or at a Grassroots Gathering or similar event. I would certainly be interested in being involved in such a discusssion.

As for Belfield Belle and his/her gutless attacks, I refuse to engage with someone who makes personal allegations from behind a cloak of anonimity. If you post under your real name with a contact detail, I will gladly engage in as vigorous a debate as you want, including a comparision of our respective 'revolutionary careers'. As for past actions, I have never made a secret of the fact that I made many serious mistakes, and got it badly wrong in the past and I have acknowledged this in detail on other threads on indymedia. Again if BB has the guts to post under his/her real name I will go through chapter and verse of my inglorious career in the WP and again we can compare that with the mistakes BB has made. If you have'nt the guts to do that you could contact me by email or phone (details above) and we can have the debate in private.

Otherwise, its the usual policy: no name, no contact details, no debate.

by Oxo Lockart Wed Dec 21, 2005 13:10

the use of shannon has been a practice for many many years and if we were to pull the plug on this, it would be bad for Irelands interests. People are making a mountain out of a molehill on the issue and it is a classic case of nit picking!! if there are planes carrying arab terrorists who hate everything we stand for and would like to kill us all for being the way we are, well it is wrong if it is illegal as per international law, but do you really give a sh*te...

by Magneto Wed Dec 21, 2005 14:15

This is my first appearance on this thread. I would not launch an attack on Fintan Lane.

by Oxo Lockart Wed Dec 21, 2005 14:45

He committed a crime and was punished accordingly. People are not allowed breach airport fences etc and cause criminal damage..

by Conor J McGowan - ISN-p.c. Wed Dec 21, 2005 16:07

As the designer and moderator of irishsocialist.net , I can now announce that the favicon on the site has been changed from the red'n'black flag of yore, to a lovely new red wedge.

I hope that comrades in the WSM/26th July movement/Bohemians FC fan club will now be happy in the knowledge that the ISN is not trying to steal their cloths or flags.

Favicons are tempremental little creatures, so it'll take a complete cache clearout, and probably a month or 2 before the new icon appears on your computer.

Like almost any website, irishsocialist.net appears better in firefox. Apart from the fact that it is freeware, Firefox is a much better browser (tabbed browsing being a major+). It can be downloaded (free) here:

http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/

The term "libertarian socialist" is thrown around a lot these days. I can honestly say that I only know 1 libertarian socialist. It is quite trendy to say you are one, and I think a discussion on what it really means to be one would be worthwhile.

I get on with the WSM, and all the anarchists I know. More unites us than divides us - and I would say the same of most people on the left.

I cant say that I have anything in common with "Belfield Belle" - the likes of who should be ignored until they come out from under their veil.

On another note, the website is going well for the ISN. Its only up a couple of months, and we are fast reaching the 20,000 hits mark. Hopefully with better tagging and the likes, it should be doing even better in the new year. It has been updated almost every week since the start, and will be from now on, so do keep calling in!

The new, less libertarian favicon!

by Bohs WATCH Wed Dec 21, 2005 16:50

What use are Bohs flags to anybody, thgey are totally crap