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International - Event Notice
Thursday January 01 1970

The battle of Trafalgar.

category international | summit mobilisations | event notice author Tuesday June 28, 2005 22:19author by an t-uasal foghlaí Report this post to the editors

¿which side were you on?

the 200º anniversary of the battle of trafalgar in which served approximately 4000 seamen under admiral Nelson and 900 under admiral Villeneuve is to be held today.

It shall mark 115 days since the Queen of Engurland under the direction of very important man, (& don't you know it now? in the meantime) Tony "the antichrist" Blair celebrated the anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar on the 21st of June 2005, a mere more than week since he got the UK presidency of the European Union.
the building on the right is the south african embassy.
the building on the right is the south african embassy.

With loads of ships.
afloat on the dirty english channel, la manche, la mancha [sic] just off of Portsmouth.

there will be "pre-dates" to this article,
in a sort of eventually retro- sort of update way
sideways look @ the brit hun imperialism
then & now, like fk yiz, my ancestor was a pirate.

It has been less than a week, @ time of writing since 4 migrants attempted to cross the mediterranean in a pedal boat, (they were arrested).

this is about
"time"

reclaim the sea!

author by critical pigeonspublication date Tue Jun 28, 2005 22:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

the building on the right is a fast food shop just down the block from the south african embassy and the building in front is a pigeon food stall, and that behind is a bookshop under a load of offices. The men were released without charge.
Though irish casualties were reduced by the lucky fact that none of nelson's ships were officially reported as sunk, in contrast villeneuve's fleet was historiographically almost wiped out, and our migrant labour, would have suffered accordingly.
If the battle of trafalgar off of cadiz in south western spain had occured on the date of the anniversary,
the prevailing wind conditions would have been different to those found typically on the 21st of october.
Even allowing for global warming, we can be pretty sure (I'm an expert) that Nelson would not have been able to cut the vangaurd of the french/castillian (& a few basques [they were different then] loads of gallicians, decent sprinkling of extramduras, but very few catalans {they were on the brit side} column
as it attempted to sail for vigo, {in Galicia where the vatican tried to cheat at migrant voting} in preparation for a LAND INVASION of lahndin,
which would naturally have ended up causing democracy and fast food restaurants in killeybegs.

author by ribbidiñgbrits! ribbidiñgbrits!publication date Tue Jun 28, 2005 22:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

4000 were irish.
though now a few of those came from wee ulster.
(where the second oldest poltician in Europe is)

author by roosterpublication date Wed Jun 29, 2005 03:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

by critical pigeons
the prevailing wind conditions would have been different to those found typically on the 21st of october.
Even allowing for global warming, we can be pretty sure (I'm an expert) that Nelson would not have been able to cut the vangaurd of the french/castillian

-every day is different from any other day, sea state wind direction/strength, visibility, cloud etc. (I'm the expert)



4000 were irish.
though now a few of those came from wee ulster.

-I don't think in 1805 anyone saw any difference as everyone from the island was Irish.

author by C sna Cpublication date Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

A large proportion of those seamen would have been "pressed" into the fleet or often sentenced by courts martial following the United Irish resistance of 1798-1804 as an alternative to execution or transportation so their contribution to this bollixes victory would have been involuntary to say the very least.

author by aye ayepublication date Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nelson's Pillar was a large granite pillar topped by a statue of Horatio, Lord Nelson, located in the centre of O'Connell Street in Dublin. It was erected in 1808 to honour Admiral Lord Nelson and the Battle of Trafalgar, three years after his death, and before the similar Nelson's Column was erected in London in 1849.
The pillar was a Doric column that rose 121 ft (36.8 m) from the ground and was topped by a 13 ft (3.9 m) tall statue in Portland stone by Cork sculptor Thomas Kirk, RHA (1781-1845), giving it a total height of 134 ft (40.8 m) – some 20 metres shorter than the more famous Nelson's Column in London. It was designed by Francis Johnson (1760-1829), the architect who built the General Post Office.

A group of former IRA men, including Joe Christle,1 planted a bomb that destroyed the upper half of the pillar at 2am on March 8, 1966, throwing the statue of Nelson into the street and causing large chunks of stone to be flung around the vicinity. Christle, dismissed ten years earlier from the IRA for unauthorised actions, was qualified as a barrister and saw himself as a socialist revolutionary. It is thought that the bombers acted when they did to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising. No one was hurt by the explosion. The closest bystander was 19-year-old taxi driver Steve Maughan, whose taxi was destroyed. O'Connell Street enjoyed a gay atmosphere for a few days as people crowded in to appreciate the novelty that was being referred to around town as The Stump.

wo days after the original damage, Irish Army Engineers blew up the rest of the pillar after judging the vestigial structure to be too unsafe to restore. These experts' explosion caused more destruction on O'Connell street than the original blast, breaking many windows and causing painfully-amused Dubliners to roll their eyes.

The rubble from the monument was taken to the East Wall dump and the lettering from the plinth moved to the gardens of Butler House, Kilkenny.

Ken Dolan and six other students2 from the National College of Art and Design stole the statue's head on St. Patrick's Day from a storage shed on Clanbrassil Street as a fund-raising prank to pay off a Student Union's debt. They leased the head for £200 a month to an antiques dealer in London for his shop window.

It is now in the Civic Museum in Dublin after the students eventually gave it to the then Lady Nelson who gave it back to the burghers of Dublin.

The Nelson Pillar Act was passed in 1967, transferring responsibility for the site of the monument from the Nelson Pillar Trustees to Dublin Corporation. The site was simply paved over by the authorities until The Spire of Dublin was erected there in 2003. A time capsule containing artefacts from 1808 was discovered 3 in the ground on October 2, 2001 when digging began to lay the foundations for the Spire.

oh it was shocking
oh it was shocking

the spire. where we meet now to court and finish our omnibus routes
the spire. where we meet now to court and finish our omnibus routes

Related Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson
author by fecking am an expertpublication date Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

in 1805 or 2005, two typically differ in strength in either June or October they are the Venedavel and Levanter which blow respectively in westerly and easterly directions through the straits, and in the days before nuclear powered aircraft carriers would have either sped up or slowed down the progress of the spanish / french column of ships and those of the british giving chase across the atlantic which would have relied on the north-easterly trade winds to arrive directly in martinque and the westerlise to return.
Once Napoleon ordered Villeneuve to return to the mediterranean (sicily) in late october, that meant the french and spanish were sailing into the Levanter and preparing to sail through the end of the Sirocco. The wind was to their disadvantage.
& if you can't afford to buy the simulation game and repeat the whole bloody exercise in your bedroom, you can watch the Guardian re-enact it for you in a flash animation
http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,1504015,00.html
and you see that Nelson's weather column attacked and cut the French/Spanish line with full weather advantage, which also slowed the return of the vanguard late in the afternoon.

you only attack when you have the advantage.
you only attack when you have the advantage.

author by aye ayepublication date Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nelson's plan for defeating the Combined Fleet had been discussed with his captains days before the battle. He intended to attempt to break the enemy line of battle with two or three columns in order to cut the centre and rear of the fleet from its van, and to then concentrate his forces on the ships in rear part of the line. Since the ships would be sailing downwind, it would be difficult for those in the van to sail back upwind and come to the aid of the rear. This is a similar tactic to that which Nelson had already used successfully at the Battle of Cape St. Vincent (1797), but here it was applied as a deliberate plan on a larger scale.
At Cádiz, in Spain, Admiral Pierre de Villeneuve, hearing that Napoleon had sent a replacement who was on his way to take over Villeneuve's command, the combined French and Spanish fleet finally set sail. It took two days, 19 October and 20 October, for the combined fleet to clear the harbour at Cádiz, and on the morning of October 21, the British approached as the Spanish and French ships were still struggling to form up south of Cádiz in *light and contrary winds*.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trafalgar
**********************************************

& on the "geneology" question-

"There's a running joke in family history circles, says Bruno Pappalardo, naval expert at the National Archives. "If every man said to have served in the Battle of Trafalgar actually did," he says, "the ships would have sunk." Pappalardo is the man who is opening up the records for genealogy fans to check just that. The Battle of Trafalgar, in 1805, was the most famous naval battle in history, involving 18,000 men - and, the records now show, one woman." "It was a very cosmopolitan navy", says Pappalardo. "Many men came from different nationalities - Turkish, Chinese, French, Italian, Irish, American and African. The navy recruited near and far." On board Nelson's 828-crew HMS Victory, they came from the UK, West Indies, America, Holland, Italy, France, Malta and Ireland. Of the 18,000 at Trafalgar, 4,000 - almost a quarter - were Irish."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4110478.stm

author by roosterpublication date Thu Jun 30, 2005 14:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Nelson touch delegated authority to make decisions to individual ships and that gave the RN the ability to cope with any meteorological conditions that were to be encountered on the day, so-called expert - my job is as a met observer so don't talk like I've never heard of the ''Venedavel Sirocco and Levanter'' all your doing is cut and pasting from the real experts.


Villeneuve was a poor commander with only a percentage of the nautical experience of Nelson.
Nelson of course was a made man who had come up through the ranks the hard way, in other words he had to prove himself to the upper class snobs and never had a commission or promotion handed to him on a plate!

author by "we are all experts"publication date Thu Jun 30, 2005 15:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I made an assertion and then backed it up upon being challenged with C&P. And my original assertin was based on growing up in the tradition of "Oct21" (have a look at the stump of the pillar in the photo above its so clearly there - "october xxi") and as such grew up with the battle plan, and knowing the weather advantage was central to the attack. I believe there are only three naval battles that are so well recorded that people can go draw them on serviettes or napkins.
And my assertion that Nelson would not have won in June holds, coz I've spent a lot of my life talking about it, and worse "being talked at" about it, and my thoughts on the winds holds too, because I've noticed that african migration is seasonal. And you don't have to be a meterological observer, a guardia civil or a NATO seamen to make the connections, and even if you know all about the strait winds, that doesn't mean the readers don't, after all, they may be experts in different things.
So I've thought to "use your expertise", Rooster you can record here the wind conditions in the bay of Cadiz for this week, if you are a met-observer that data wll be readily available to you. And then when Oct 21 comes round, (this article is an event notice) we'll look at the wind conditions again, and on the basis of "fact" make a comparison and conjecture.

author by expert-ingpublication date Fri Jul 01, 2005 00:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

we can use several freely available mathematical modelling tools to decide once and for all just in time for the anniversary, was the propaganda right, and was the victory solely due to one of two men.
Nelson or Villeneuve.
And please note we will have to mostly use data from only one side, the victors.

Coz you see as an @.:. I don't believe in that shite.

"Deborah B. Preston teaches at Keystone School in San Antonio, Texas. She has been teaching for twenty years, sixteen of which have been in AP/Pre-AP classes. She is a member of the NCTM and ADCTM organizations and has co-authored the Instructor’s Guide to accompany Paul A. Foerster's Calculus: Concepts and Applications. For the last eleven years, she and Foerster have taught mathematics summer institutes together through the University of California at Berkeley. She makes presentations at national conferences on technology use in the mathematics curriculum and is an experienced writer of standardized mathematics tests. Preston has been recognized as a Woodrow Wilson Fellow, a recipient of the state-level Presidential Award for Excellence in Mathematics Teaching, and a Radio Shack/Tandy Technology Outstanding Teacher."

cool eh? she's an expert.

She colloborated with three other mathematicians to write essays for the Woodrow Wilson foundation on "mathematically modelling the battle of trafalgar".
& in this year, of [irish mathematical interest and William Rowan Hamilton] {c/f the sunday papers "recollection of fools" edition } let us reflect their model is based on two ideas - Euler's differential equations, and Lanchester's "square law" (one of his laws of attrition) first written in 1916. Now they could have used "quarternions" and been Irish anniversary sensitive, but they weren't, and their model has been kicking around classrooms for ages.

Maybe the appropriate irish government ministry will sponser the prize to solve "my problem" using Hamiltonian mathematics? If not I'll send you "the "joshua tree" on pirate cd and a T shirt.
http://www.woodrow.org/teachers/mi/1993/29mars.html
using their model you see the British side won, because "they were mathemtically bound to", it was all in the numbers. That work is based on _fixed firing positions, _ and fixed time_ and _fixed fire power_. There is rakes of copious references to bad weather on the first putting to sea in october by the coalition fleet, and but also on how it affected them "reducing morale" the whole previous year and in the earlier 2005 skirmish.
The "reduction in morale" is represented mathematically by reducing the efficiency index of the equation. But there's no part for weather.
You've got to pay to view, if you want to include weather conditions in your computer re-enactment and even then for that one day, Oct XXI 1805.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=4201&

But none of this work, either by a school teacher turned fellow of an august US institution, or a bunch of teenagers trying to make money tell us
if the battle were modelled in October 1805 or June 1805 the _underlying_ circumstances would have meant a different outcome.

Now will you do your expert bit and give us the weather conditions this week in the bay of Cadiz?
And then I'll do my expert bit, and0 model those conflict. And we won't even get into the psychological conditions of Villeneuve as they changed from March 1805 to October 1805, or the length of the "trafalgar campaign" of which one battle ended, due mostly to WEATHER.

**************************************************
In the memory of all men and women who gave their lives vainly yet with courage in the causes of european imperialism in the Atlantic sea and land during the Napoleonic wars. For history is only a victors web of deceitful disregard.

author by aye ayepublication date Fri Jul 01, 2005 14:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Rooster (an imc addict) has not given us the info, he says its his expert job to have. Accordingly, as I feel it is my duty, being a descendent of a pirate and all that, to move quickly on with this event notice of the battle of trafalgar and the competition "would the result have been different if the battle had been fought on June 28th".

Now because we are a family website, I also intend to set a "junior maths problem" at a later date in July and will now start giving you the information you need for that kids! And will explain the maths you need along the way.

But let us return to the conflict as it occured, (the advanced history competition) and reflect that the coalition forces who lost, included many ships of the spanish line. It was their second serious defeat by a british fleet in history. The whole "trafalgar story" goes beyond the mere tweedledee versus tweedledum Engurland v. France.
We have seen the large irish contigent. We have touched briefly on the "working conditions". But for the moment this thread shall now look at the weather data. The weather in the bay of Cadiz is today monitored by the same satelites which help guard the frontiers of Europe. c/f http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69199

The wind for the last days as recorded in Cadiz has been fluctuating between 11km westerly and 14km westerly. It is forecast to go through "calm" (useless to an 18th/early19th century sail vessel) to easterly 14km to 22km over the weekend, when "calm" is forecast again for two days. Meanwhile, enjoy a peek at the spanish met offices satelite annimation. (hit animación button on the left side to see the clouds move).
http://www.inm.es/web/infmet/satel/sespan.html

and you can now start your weather and wind chart.

Get a large piece of "graph paper" and use either a pencil or if you're sure you're not making mistakes, a permenant biro. This is not suitable work for a spray and stencil. If you normally are restricted to crayon then this activity might become too aggressive and excitining for you later on. Perhaps better stick to making "poverty" and the "iraq war" history.

"plot" these wind speeds and temperatures on your graph-
http://www.inm.es/cgi-bin/locali.cgi?ig=11340
you may like to compare them to "surfing" records
http://www.swell-forecast.com/en/cadiz/inmgiball.htm
and local fishing records for a better idea of sea conditions "at port" and 50km out to sea, where "your imaginary Nelson's fleet" is waiting to fight the combined European forces of Spain and France for socialism and stuff.

author by an t-uasal aye aye - reclaim it!publication date Sat Jul 02, 2005 14:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You don't have to be a military genius to realise the important of communication in such things, and that the speed and ease at which messages were passed along affected the outcome of the battle of trafalgar. There were four lines of communication, those within Nelson's fleet from observers close to shore and the main body 50km out to sea, and three in the coalition fleet, from land to fleet, and within french and spanish ships.

The first message sent On Oct 21 1805 was
"have discovered a strange fleet" at 05h50 from the british ship Achilles to Nelson. It took him fifteen minutes till 06h10 to give the long expected command-
"form order of saling in two columns".
Noticing the wind conditions as they began to order themselves at 06h13 Nelson ordered :- "Bear up and sail on course ENE" Less than ten minutes later "prepare for battle".
The most famous message, was actually one of the most confusing, Nelson is reported as saying to his Lieutenant : "Mr Pasco, I wish to say to the Fleet 'England confides that every man will do his duty'". Pasco asked Nelson if he could substitute the word 'expects' for 'confides' as that was in the telegraphic vocabulary whereas confides would have to be spelt, Nelson agreed and the signal was run up Victorys' halyards. Changing the wording subtly changed the meaning, and the signal caused confusion on some ships, with sailors saying they would always do their duty and didn't have to be asked...

The British were not the only ones sending signals.

The French had installed by 1794 a series of "in-sight" communication towers after a design by Claude Chappe. These allowed messages to be sent from Paris to Venice by (1805) in six hours or from Paris to Lille - a distance of 191 kilometres - in five minutes. Thus Napoleon's messages to Villeneuve had taken less than a day to get from Paris. There is much said of Villenueve's "feeling" he was about to be relieved of duty as admiral of the coalition fleet, but how would he have known if no horseman could get the rumour through quicker than the telegraph message?

Encryption is the answer. The messages were sent in code. And needed to be decyphered.

The revolution in communication technology had not gone un-noticed in England, and as early as 1804 the construction of the Martello towers had started along the coasts of the channel islands, southern England and the Irish eastern coast.
the Martello towers were copies of the two Genoese defence towers located in Martello Corsica which had fought off a british naval seige in 1794, (the british were quite "borg-like" they learnt from every mistake) They brought the tower design home, and attempted to mimic the "semaphore signal method" by using flags above the "in-line of sight" towers. But their encryption system was notably weaker than that of the french, and spies in Ireland and England were able to communicate exact fleet and troop movements of the British "in time" to the revolutionary HQ in Paris.

((last link is for readers who are are exploring this slow analysis and modeling of the battle in June of 2005 and perhaps they are concerned by other things-
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/07/315433.html

going postal with "the clacks" circa french revolution time.
going postal with "the clacks" circa french revolution time.

author by newspaper criticpublication date Sat Jul 02, 2005 14:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

... another ipsiphian monologue but I think that you had better froget about the Spaniards for a minute and keep an eye on the Mexicans. They are up to some funny stuff ....

Related Link: http://www.orf.at/050702-88643/88643abs_news.html
author by roosterpublication date Sat Jul 02, 2005 16:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nelson would have kicked Villeneuves ass no matter what month of the year he met him on.
Like I said, of course the met conditions are different from one month to the other thats, but to suggest he would have done exactly the same thing in june as he did in october or december or may is speculation on your part.

Thats my point, he would have adapted his battle plan accordingly!

PS if you really want the data I can swamp you with ship obs and synops, but I'm guessing that would'nt be helpful

author by an t-uasal aye ayepublication date Sat Jul 02, 2005 20:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

don't swamp me with data, but some data would be sweet, this is a competition you know, for the kids and parents during the summer holidays, to make them think about history and war. (send it to me c/o the contact button)
As for the racist stamp, hmmm, they're very popular in mexico, I wonder was speedy gonzales racist?

Nelson's ability to devise his revolutionary battle plan depended on the development of a new range of signal flags offering far greater flexibility in passing information from the flag ship to the others in the fleet on a moment by moment basis. It took a mind like Nelson's to seize the advantage of this invention.
(propaganda)

"Admiral Home Popham ... devised a truly alphabetic signal book which, first published in 1805, at last put a flexible, comprehensive and instantly communicable range of signals at a sea commander's disposal [for the first time]."

Villeneuve led a combined fleet using two different signal systems and two different languages, the nature of the sailors was different to that of Nelson's. If we look beyond the propaganda, "every man would do his duty" we see it was maritime slavery "with an eventual offer of reward and booty or the more practical desertion in warmer seas for a pirates life".

The spanish and french on the other hand were two very different navies. One had attempted to install revolutionary egalitarianism, Villenueve himself though born an aristocrat had dropped the "de V" from before his name to survive the first purges of privelage. The other was the fleet of the Bourbons made up of prisoners and land soldiers with conditions similar to the British. It is a propaganda idea that somehow the same discipline and press-ganging produced "well disciplined sailors for the british but demoralised half-wits for the spanish".

The prince of austurias which fought the british that day, might not have been an aircraft carrier armed with harrier jets like the prince of austurias which took part in the bi-centenial the other day, but it was a flagship. What is interesting is how when the european fleet saw Nelson come over the horizon shortly after dawn, (the 06h10 signal) the chain of command and signals in the French and Spanish fleet broke down.

Everyone knew and had known that

"TWO COLUMNS WOULD ATTACK"

because it was obviously the best way to attack, if the positions had been reversed the french and spanish would have done so too. But in the attempts to re-organised themselves in preparation for that attack (which they had known was unavoidable for the whole year), they left a bend in the weather side of their fleet, (bad for firing) which allowed the british ships to come to close quarters, this *might have been* luck, the idea of sailing two columns at 90º angle into a solid column of 33 ships with broadside firing at you, is well "scary" or it was timing, and if it was timing it was "weather".

The Spaniard were at home in the bay of cadiz, and facing what seemed by breakfast time to be a decimation (rather than annihilation) of their fleet their ships to the "van" "went for" the guarding party of Nelson's boat, by which time there was so much smoke about, no-one really knew which ship was which, unless they got really close.

What had been the rear, of the coalition carried the spaniards - Don Ignatio Maria D'Aliva, Vice Admiral, and the Rear Admiral Don Baltazar Hidalgo Cisneros, they got the furthest out of the mess but their ships and themselves were taken prisoner along with Villenueve (who was to die a few years later with six stab wounds to the heart, the coroner recorded suicide).

author by the bardpublication date Sat Jul 02, 2005 21:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Come all of you true sons of Erin,
Attend to these few simple lines.
I'll sing you a song about spinning,
It was a good trade in its time.
Some they spun worsted and yarn,
Others they spun flax and tow;
By experience, friends, you can learn
How the wheels of the world they do go.

Chorus:
So these are the wheels of world,
My friend, you must understand,
For three hundred years they've been spinning
Destruction all over the land.

Napoleon he was a fine spinner
He freedom did always advance,
O'er deserts and high lofty mountains
He marched with the proud sons of France.
Oh Wellington he also went spinning,
His wheels they were at Waterloo,
Sure if Grouchy had never been bribed,
Boys, the French would have cut him in two.

author by aye ayepublication date Sun Jul 03, 2005 17:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nelson was 5foot 6 inches or 1.68meters tall, a calculation based on examination of his uniform after death.

Napoleon's body was autopsied in France after his death, and his height was noted as 5 foot 2 inches. This measurement was in French feet (pieds de roi) and was never correctly converted to standard English measure. In English feet, Napoleon stood 5 foot 6.5 inches tall. (168.91 cm)

Bono of U2 is estimated at 5 ft 7 in (170 cm) by comparing photos with Blair and Bush. (figures will be released later on in the competition, when we get the question).

Jacques Villeneuve the champion formula 1 canadian/quebecois racing driver is 1.68 metres tall 5foot 6inches, and is possibly a direct descendent of the admiral.

Nautical measurements-

10 cables = 1 nautical mile
6080 feet = 1 nautical mile
1 Knot = 1.151 mph

Last link is suposed to be a copy of the telegram from Cadiz to Paris declaring the victory for the French and Spanish, and attributing the death of Nelson to a duel fought with Villeneuve. The sniper who did shoot him in the official record, is recorded as Robert Guillemard a crew member of the french ship, the Redoubtable.
http://www.hms.org.uk/nelsonsnavyfrentraf.htm

author by roosterpublication date Mon Jul 04, 2005 00:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You should find all the data you need on my website.

author by an t-uasal aye aye - anti-olympics-international-committeepublication date Wed Jul 06, 2005 19:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

as little more than a sporting engagement, and one which distracted from the more serious issues of the day.
Issues such as immigration, water, global warming, the pox, the blight of newly arrived opium dens, and the uncertainty in both fashion and high arts and a new generation of movers and shakers attacked hems, the frilly coat, and the beautiful palladian symmetry of composers such as mozart gave way to the thumping point making of young beethoven.

(thanks for the link rooster, but its just brings me to a audio sampler file in devon county council and a lot of tech talk on computers very old fashioned computers even by the standards of the time,
http://he.fi/archive/fbb/200307/0043.html
If you don't supply proper weather data I suggest your comment is removed for breaching phishing guidelines and that your future contributions to the battle of trafalgar competition both adult and junior version be blockaded)

Noon, October XXI - 1805, the fleets have just engaged at close quarter, and the breached weather line of the red ships call in chinooks and up the council tax
Noon, October XXI - 1805, the fleets have just engaged at close quarter, and the breached weather line of the red ships call in chinooks and up the council tax

Related Link: http://scotland.indymedia.org/newswire/display/580/index.php
author by rear admiral an t-uasal aye aye - (i just got me promotion)(but i'm keeping the gaeilge)(not letting it go to my head)publication date Wed Jul 06, 2005 19:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

had been sunk by the section of the vanguard led by frenchman Dumanoire above the Formidable.
you can plot the positions from the map above. Now at this point both french and spanish ships started to "go for" Nelson, it is their intention to see him "done" by tea-time.

author by roosterpublication date Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

''(thanks for the link rooster, but its just brings me to a audio sampler file in devon county council and a lot of tech talk on computers very old fashioned computers even by the standards of the time,
http://he.fi/archive/fbb/200307/0043.html
If you don't supply proper weather data I suggest your comment is removed for breaching phishing guidelines and that your future contributions to the battle of trafalgar competition both adult and junior version be blockaded)''


-if you go down to your local FE college you can get pretty good courses on basic I.T.

author by iosaf mac diarmadapublication date Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

On the 28th of June I began this lengthy thread to discuss "memory" and "time" noting that the Battle of Trafalgar had been celebrated with less than scrupulous attention to truth, fact and detail.

I asked you to ponder the pigeons of Trafalgar Square and two men in the first photo. Then i asked you to think about weather conditions.
Was weather important to the outcome? Is there still a "weather issue"?

I left little comments occasionally sparring with Rooster {a northern ireland based commentator to the imc ireland site who is by the way a metereologist [ ¿ in the service of HMG? :-) ] }

I can tell you that today's weather conditions of the cape of Trafalgar are completely different to those of October 21 1805.

This is because of :- Climate Change.

In the last weeks 2005 as Nelson's and Villeneuve's fleets would have played cat and mouse in the eastern Atlantic there was a huricane - hurricane Vince. Neither fleet would have survived faced with such a tropical storm, which incidently never made landfall, unlike its partners Katrina, Rita, Stan and next up Wilma.

I can also admit an artifice. On the 6th of July 2005 I ended this thread, for good reasons, my comments and articles of July 6th were full of ominous warnings. Warning which sadly had gone unheeded and cassandra like came catastrophically true.- On july 6th I wrote HMS Africa and HMS Pickle were sunk.

Well, Africa has continued as the weather to be a topic of conversation for all parties to the Trafalgar conflict, the UK, France & Spain have seen africans on their daily news agenda since July 7th when some africans suicide bombed London.

And as we all know the G8 conference on both Africa and climate change seemed to be quietly forgotten once our "activists" assault on Gleneagles was overshadowed by the bombings of july 7th and july 21 and the shooting of De Menezes on july 22.

According to the british admiralty records, Nelson didn't lose a single ship. My July 6th comment about HMS Africa and HMS Pickle was "a joke".

As those who trust the record of propaganda, the finely woven web of deceit and pride which is any victor's history will know - The News reached London that Nelson had died at Trafalgar on October 21st 1805 when the schooner HMS Pickle "made landfall" on November 7th 1805.
Only then were the terrible rumours from France that the admiral had been "got" confirmed.

Today I am happy to write that Clare Short MP has using private member privelage proposed a motion in the house to enact a bill requiring any future war declared by HMG UK to have prior approval by the parliament or else it will be illegal.

It won't bring back Nelson.
It won't stop the weather from breaking.
It won't stop the pigeons.
It won't stop the Africans coming to Europe.
It won't stop the pickle.

but its not over yet.
As I said indeed as I kept reminding the reader-

"this is all about time".

So who won? Africa? the Weather? tell me when you're finished.
So who won? Africa? the Weather? tell me when you're finished.

author by none - nonepublication date Wed Sep 20, 2006 16:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

my name is ben i know lm in the rong place but i have found a hard cover what looks like a messag book very old it has ship drawn on thick ink with victoy under neth it . at the back it has flags with the saying england expects that every man will do his duty all in a sercal in the midel it has nelsons signal telegraph flag 21 october 1805 this book looks very old please contact me at benjaminlouw@hotmail.co.uk

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