Lessons from Dunsink Traveller Protest

by Taxpayer Mon Oct 11, 2004 03:32

I'm delighted to hear that the Gardai have finally acted to close down the illegal dumping and diesel-laundering operation which has been run by Travellers in Dunsink Lane for the last few years.
As for "obstructing traffic", there is a major difference between delaying drivers, which was done by the other protestors you refer to, and breaking their windshields with rocks, which was done by some Travellers at the Dunsink Lane protest.
The papers don't make it all up, you know.

by toneore Mon Oct 11, 2004 06:30 toneore at eircom dot net

...Is the best way to describe this article, alright. Well done the boys in blue. This not Chiapas or Palestine, but an illegal act of criminality that owes more to The General than El Subcommandate.

The settled community as you call them are NEVER going to accept this kind of provo-pavee intimidation and violence, so the TVG need to revisit their "arts" of community negotiation. And travellers are NOT Irish's only ethnic minority. Where have you been living for the last 10 years?

by Michael Hennigan Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:08

Travellers are no more 'an ethnic minority' than say typical small farmers from West Cork or Kerry are compared with say natives of a large urban area like Dublin.

Being a native of a typical West Cork town, I have seen how some traveller families have settled successfully over the years; others have chosen to remain mobile.

The way of life in rural Ireland has changed dramatically in rural Ireland in recent decades as it has for the travelling community, many of whom have opted for the commercial van over the piebald pony.

It suits some travellers to remain outside the taxation system etc but at a cost to their children in terms of education and health.

by Joe Collins Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:35 Cork

On Thursday last, the Irish Times quoted the assistant Dublin city manager, Matt Twomey, who admitted that the illegal dumping "was significantly from outsiders and people using the lane on their way to and from other places". Only some local Travellers, he said, might be involved in the practice.
I am not making this up. It is there in black and white.
Lets stick to facts in this thread and not jump to the conclusion that the barrier was put there simply to stop illegal dumping by Travellers who live there. What is puzzling is why this guy (Twomey) would come on air on Vincent Browne's night time radio show on RTE Radio 1 to defend the barrier after making this admission. It does not add up.
And as for the alleged tax avoidance by the removal of certain dyes from motor fuels at the site, that has been going on in West Cork and in Cork city for as long as I can remember. It is way up there in terms of serious crime with distilling poteen.
Gosh, why are there not more of these barriers stuck on public rights of way, in areas where some local settled people might be involved in the practice?

by observer Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:47

I would agree that Travellers do not constitute an ethnic minority. That makes it all the more unacceptable for the state to visit this collective punishment on an entire community. If - and there are - a minority of travellers on Dunsink engaged in illegal dumping and other criminal activities then they ought to be singled out and prosecuted as individuals.

by zeppo Mon Oct 11, 2004 14:32 zeppo.marx at gmail dot com

As a long time resident of the Valley Park housing estate I would like to inject some reason into this thread which has been veering toward the hysterical.
My first point is that Travellers have been living on this site in Dunsink for over thirty years. During this period they have caused no more disturbance to the area than a certain minority of the settled community. In other words they have the same proportion of so called bad eggs as the rest of us.
Can we imagine the outrage therefore if a similar barrier was erected at the entrance to a housing estate in Finglas, Ballymun or Ballyfermot on the basis that a minority are involved in criminal activity?
The crimes of which Travellers are allegedly guilty are trafficking in illegal diesel, and the harrassment of telecom and electricity engineers. Do these actions justify such collective punishment? This barrier will not discourage illegal dumping. People who wish to dump illegally will not be fundamentally discommoded by a seven mile detour. It merely intimidates and ghettoises an already marginalised community.
While the Travellers may not in certain respects qualify as an ethnic minority their treatment shows up the emptiness of our alleged pluralist state. They are criminalised and reviled largely because they do not buy into a culture of mortgages and crippling debt.
However their actions have been counterproductive, blockading working class people trying to get home makes it more difficult for those both in their own and the settled communities who might wish to build on areas of common interest. For example, the barrier causes inconvenience not only to the travellers and the illegal dumping of "commercial waste" is also a nuisance to the settled community. Surely the way to deal with illegal dumping is to prosecute the offenders. And the frustration displayed by certain sections of the Travelling community is simply symptomatic of the contempt with which they are habitually treated. Anyone with any experience of popular protest has seen similar situations develop.

by derrida derrida reduce to the absurd Mon Oct 11, 2004 14:36

But the Irish are an ethnic group globally. Travellers as part of the Irish ethnic group therefore suffer in the UK where the status of the Irish as largest ethnic grouping has not been officially recognised, despite the Irish community in the UK having a markedly higher deathrate to heart deseise based on poor nutrition, higher incidences of alcoholism and on average seven years shortened life-span.
The emergence of the contemporary type of Irish migrant (the euro-union job seeker) [pre-crusty] in the 1980 and 1990s saw much of the "celtic tiger" identity forged in and by British media. It reflected a differing attitude to the majority of Irish migrants, their workworthiness and ability to integrate. But those Irish who had made the move in the from the 1950s to 1970s saw no significant change in attitudes or socio-economic class. Nor did they form a "new" community with the later better educated migrants. And the position of the travellers only got worse, with only one movie made which featured popular and dishy actor Brad Pitt.
Quite obviously the needs of the Irish migrant group in Britain are not all the same as the british asian or afro-carribean groups, they do not require medical services in gaeilge nor translation of government pamphlets into gaeilge. But they do suffer from alienation, and the so called "ulysses syndrome".

Spare a thought for your brother and sister
in Britain.

Contact your local parish priest for details on adopting an irish kid in britian, or An Post for special postage rates for sending traditional food stuffs, and lobby the government to make financial transfers easier so you can send them a few bob and help them get through the dismal british winters.

We could slowly work to the stage where we feel so guilty about the fate of the majority of Irish citizens, that we decide to issue an Ariel Sharon appeal for all Irish to come home.
Let the cry "next year in Cashel" be heard in the irish bars and cafés (with terraces) all over the world. When all the Irish do come home (and it's not just for Xmas to see the mammy "before she dies" and little baby cousin Alison) Ireland will get a big shock.
It will realise how so much of it's wonderful diversity was never allowed space to stay at home. There ought be many more than just a "hundred thousand welcomes". Your fellow citizens will have no problems with a multi-cultural, or multi-ethnic Ireland, because they've been living and working in multi-culturaland multi-ethnic cities "being Irish".

But then there might be less of the cácá milis to go round.
Which is why Ireland is such a miserable overtaxed narrow minded little rump that refuses passports to black babies and gives them to dead men instead.

by Denise Mon Oct 11, 2004 17:39 Tax payer land

There is a lot I do not like about the decisions by the council. I am resigned to accept that the officials and managers in there know better than me. But no matter what they do, I nearly always see why they do it, even when I am against it.
But this block of concrete? Why is it there? I have tried to see the council point of view. OK, I agree with stopping the rubbish dumping and the diesel laundering, and anybody with half a brain would want to stop guns being sold there or anywhere else for that matter. But it must be some block of concrete if it is going to succeed where the gardai and the council have failed.
If I was living up that lane I would be furious. What right does the council have to close off my daily route to Finglas? And how is that supposed to make a difference to the dumpers? It is something that only could be done to the travelling people. I am prepared to be delayed on my way here and there for the sake of allowing people to come out and protest. I am sure that they would be at home by the fire if they did not feel hard done by. I am with the travellers on this one.

by wednesdays child Mon Oct 11, 2004 18:52

i believe that the travelling community are infact an ethnic group to the extent that they are even a part of my equality studies course in UCD. the factors that indicate their standing as an ethnic, is the very fact that both internally and externally they are seen a specific group, that is, we regard them as "other" and they share a common identity. they also have many traditions (such as the nomadic aspect of their lives), their own history and even a language called cant or gammon. it may not be as visible as the colour of their skin but the difference is still there. the very fact that you are denying them the title of ethnic group, is racist. we can see racism plainly when looking abroad, but when it's on our own doorstep we are suddenly blind to it. the travelling community have been and still are, subject to oppression in the form of stereotyping, and abuse, both verbal and violent, some episodes even reminisent of the rodney king incident
its all very well to say while standing atop your soap box, how disgraceful the actions of the protestors were this weekend, but can you not instead try to understand their reaction and the anger they feel as insult is added to injury as they are marginalised once again.
our goal should not be to try and assimilate this ethnic group in to wider society but instead to accomodate for the needs of the 30 to 35,000 members of this community as they deserve. this entails both reformation of the health and education systems (which has been quite succesfully achieved in britian) and the destigmatisation of their people and way of life.

by Michael Hennigan Mon Oct 11, 2004 22:29

In expressing my opinion that travellers are not an ethnic minority, I am not intentionally makeing a negative statement.

Tonight, RTE Radio 1's Book on One will feature the 'Tailor and Ansty' a book featuring a tailor and his wife in Gougane Barra, West Cork in the early 1940's. It was banned by what Frank O'Connor referred to as the 'well-educated De Valera Government.'

I mention this as there are still people living on our island who have more in common with the tailor who was immortalised by Eric Cross than today's urban Irish people. I don't view these people as an 'ethnic minority' and that is no insult to these great reminders of a different Ireland.

The life of the travelling community has changed like that of most Irish people. We are not dealing with an Amish type situation where life has stood still.

What was the role of the traveller in times past in rural society and what is it today? It is very different.

by observer Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:37

Travellers are included in the UCD social studies course so that means they are an ethnic group!!

No. I'm afraid it doens't. I am not trying to be patronising but I would safely say that I know more travellers than most people - including those in Dunsink - and I do not accept that they are ethnically different to me or any other Irish person. They certainly have a different lifestyle but so do gay people, alcoholics, organic farmers and pilots. Much of that lifestyle is harmful and ought to be discouraged - ie. depriving their children of education, living in squalor and so on when it is of their own making.

Having said that, they are entitled to live as they wish and separately if that is their desire. I also beleive that the manner in which the Counil has acted is a form of collective punishment that penalises an entire community for the crimes of a minority. The Council and Gardai should go in and remove that minoroty.

by snoopy Wed Oct 13, 2004 14:07

"i believe that the travelling community are infact an ethnic group to the extent that they are even a part of my equality studies course in UCD"

There's a lot of stuff on that course. By your logic disabled people are an ethnic group.

Anyway, you need to get away from the placid environs of Belfield and check out an illegal dump for yourself.

by Mary Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:11

I have read your article with interest. I grew up on a housing estate in Wicklow with many settled families have nothing but respect for the travelling community in general but as someone who recently purchased a house in Finglas which backs on to Dunsink Lane I am finding my attitude changing dramatically. I moved into my house one week to the day that the Dunsink Lane protest started. I found myself unable to drive out of my house because of police barricades across my road, I had stones thrown at me and my house, cars were set on fire outside the front and back of my house. I do not consider these peaceful methods. As the year has progressed, at least once a week there is a car burnt out at the back of my house where the settlement is. The day I buried my father, I arrived home to see, what I can only describe as scumbag, disappearing over my back wall with my garden furniture, I recognised these boys to be from the settlement, as they have been knocking on my door trying to sell me private dvd's and setting my skip on fire, to make matters worse, they then came back for what they couldn't take the first time!!!!. I phoned the police and was told, there was nothing they could do about it because they couldn't go into the camp. Is this right? I don't think so. If it were me that was stealing and some one could identify me, do you think the police would say sorry , there is nothing we can do?

A lot of the travelling coummunity have a chip on their shoulder and they create a lot of their own hardships, maybe when they alter their behaviour the rest of society with follow. They must learn to lead by example.

by John Tue Sep 06, 2005 14:55

Can we all at least agree that travellers are people! and as such are entitled to be treated accordingly. I live in Finglas as do my traveller neighbours. Now lets look at what the Council did - they cut off my neighbours from their doctors, shops, schools etc.

The logic of the actions of the council would be to say, block off all the roads to Finglas because some criminals live in Finglas. Doesn't make much sense does it?

Of course their are criminals in the travelling community as there are in the settled community in general, the Garda, Judiciary, the church and any other walk of life. The idea that you punish a community for the crimes of a few is bizarre.

On the wild allegations of "widespread criminality" it just isn't true. Illegal dumping has been prevalent in the Dunsink area since the Tiphead was located there. In the past illegal commercial dumping took place and there was a campaign in the 1980's by local activists to close the "Toxic Dump". Many who attempted to put their rubbish in the tiphead and were refused or thought it was too expensive simply dumped on this road.

As for the selling of DVD's - Im not too bothered as its none of my concern if people want to take a share of the enormous profits made by the gangsters in the film industry, good luck to anyone who shows such enterprising initiative.

by eoz Wed Mar 29, 2006 00:02

the travelling community have all the characteristics of an ethnic minority such as their own culture, language and the view by the wider community of travellers as a specific group as stated by the ucd student above. They are an ethnic group within the larger community of Ireland. Yes they do share characteristics with the larger population just as Ireland shares characteristics with the wider population of Europe does that mean we the irish are not an ethnic minority? The wider populations hostility towards this group which has been exacerbated by their negative representation in the media has meant that the government have neglected this group to maintain votes. The focus on assimilation has not worked and if proper facilities were provided and the characteristics of this group were taken into account in policies then much of the problems would be solved. The labels put on travellers by the settled community have added to the problem as has been proven once you call a someone something enough they will eventually live up to this label.

by Seán de Barra Wed Mar 29, 2006 05:14

John,

You have responded f*cuk all to what Mary said. I agree that your community are treated appalingly by the State but you have serious issues of criminality, that are very profuse, in a lot of your camps and that affect other people nearby and elsewhere.

I am not one to say "Get you act together and then the State should then look after you" but at least try to be more holistic in your approach to getting a better standard of living.

Seán

by historian Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:22

What crap. Are unemployed people an ethnic minority? Or heroin users? Or compulsive gamblers?

You are correct in one thing, however. The Irish NATION will become an ethnic minority if the likes of you have their way.

by curious Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:40

Interesting that your instinctive sympathy is for the scum who made, and are probably still making, Mary's life hell. You then end by lauding their heroic crusade against the capitalist music industry! Of course it is probably Mary's own fault for having the things that these scum want to steal in the first place.

by John Wed Mar 29, 2006 16:54

My initial post had nothing to do with the comments made by Mary. Sorry to hear she has had difficulties with thugs (yes travellers can be thugs as well). I was interested to see that she blames the fact that the Garda had erected barricades at the end of her road on the Travellers! The fault of course for the whole sorry affair is on the Council. It would be like blaming the protesters shot on Bloody Sunday for the burning of the British Embassy in Dublin.

I had some difficulties when I first moved into Finglas myself from teenagers with too much testosterone. It was tough for me and my family but I didn't judge all Finglas people or all teenagers from this experience. I blamed the individuals involved. I remember attending a public meeting in the 1980's in Patrican College about illegal dumping so its not something new to the area. At the meeting a half drunk resident complained that travellers "were pissing in public and this was dangerous because it could spread AIDs". Thats the sort of discrimination that travellers have had to put up with all their lives. DeRossa was very good at the meeting - challenging all the usual bullshit. Anyone at the meeting would have thought they had been transported to 1930's Germany to a nazi rally. I'm not a DeRossa fan by any stretch of the imagination, but credit where credit is due.

I think Sean assumes I am a traveller, I'm not.

High levels of criminality are linked to poverty (unless you include fraud and taxdodging as crimes, most do not, including the Irish State. After all, Charlie still hasn't done a day in the Joy yet and never will). Criminals within the travelling community, like criminals in the settled community are a scourge and probably cause more difficulties to the community they live in than anyone else. However, in my opinion crimes against people far outweigh crimes against copyright. I personally don't care about people making copies of films, music cd's etc, I have done it myself although not to sell.

As for eoz and his enlightening contribution, I shudder to think what your idea of a nation is but mine includes travellers, addicts who are all people. You somehow associate addiction with travellers - weird. Our Nation is guilty of instutionalised neglect and racism against travellers.

by eoz Thu Mar 30, 2006 01:03

I agree that our nation is guilty of institutionalised neglect and racism against Travellers. |My comment did not mean to insinuate that Travellers are not part of the Irish nation. I made no connection between Travellers and addiction and dont believe there is one.

Also a correction needs to be made to my previous comment I meant ethnic group not ethnic minority.

To historian there is a difference between a group with a shared culture, customs and language which goes back for hundreds of years and the groups you have mentioned. If you were to read up on this culture you would realise the difference. Strange the way you group Travellers just with others who are seen as deviant by society.

by John Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:36

Sorry I actually thought your post was the one written by the looney Historian. Apologies for associating your contribution, which I agree with entirely, with that neo nazi tosser's.

by historian Thu Mar 30, 2006 13:00

You are the looney if you beleive that Travellers are an ethnic group. If so then so is any other sub-culture that fails to conform to the rules of normal society. I notice you also attempt to claim that Mary blamed the Gardai for the problems she had. I suppose it was the Gardai who attacked and robbed her house?

by growabrain Thu Mar 30, 2006 13:39

From wikipedia: "An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1986). Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices." That would seem to cover travellers.

Also, can you read? John said he found it interesting that Mary blamed travellers for the actions of the gardai, not vice versa.

by historian Thu Mar 30, 2006 14:00

You ought to take your own advice if you think that your wikipedia definition supports the notion that travellers are an ethnic group. They in fact share the same criteria you refer to with the rest of us. Any differences are of the same type as the differences that separate other sub-cultures from the rest of normal society. They are no more a separate ethnic group than the Goths in Stephens Green.

As for your other point, it is quite clear that John is attempting to shift the blame from the actual perpetrators of the violence and theft against Mary to the Gardai. Even to the extent of his ludicrous comparison to Bloody Sunday. Both of you are clearly deficient in the higher cognitative skills.

by John Thu Mar 30, 2006 15:45

I dunno what leafy suburb you are from but tell me, if the council put a 'Berlin wall' at the bottom of your road would you not consider it an act of violence? wouldn't you protest? And if the Garda turned up in their droves to make sure you left it alone dispite the fact that everyone liveing in your area objected to the wall wouldn't you resist?

I would love to hear your opinion on the people of the Garvahey Road Residents and their campaign to stop a march that they didn't support going right through their community.

Travellers are an indigenous minority, documented as being part of Irish society for centuries. Travellers have a long shared history and value system which make them a distinct group. They have their own language, customs and traditions. Read more at:

http://www.paveepoint.ie/pav_culture_a.html

Pavee Point Fact Sheet on Culture and Heritage

Download in PDF format (size 34 Kb)

Books
Acton, T - Irish Travellers, Culture and Ethnicity
Area Education & Rights Centre Travellers - the nomadic people of Ireland - cultural and social realities
Barnes, Bettina "Irish Travelling People"
Binchy, A Irish Travellers: Culture and Ethnicity
Gmelch, George & Sharon The Irish Travellers: Identity and Inequality
Helleiener, Jane The Travelling People: cultural identity in Ireland (PhD Thesis)
Kenrick, D & Puxon, G Irish Travellers- A Unique Phenomenon in Europe
Mc Donagh, M Nomadism in Irish Travellers' Identity
O'Baoill, D.P. Travellers' Cant - Language of Register
O'Rourke, Felim The Travelling People
The Anthropoligical Association of Ireland Irish Travellers: Culture and Ethnicity

But of course you know better!

by visgoth Thu Mar 30, 2006 15:53

Dunno about stephens green but the Goths seem to be a culture-

From Scandinavia, the Goths migrated and set up a kingdom in Scythia (modern-day Ukraine and Belarus). In the third century, the tribe split into two: the Ostrogoths remained in Scythia, while the Visigoths migrated to Dacia (modern-day Romania) to set up an independent kingdom. The Visigoths sacked Byzantium in the year 267, but by 271, were driven back to Dacia by the Byzantines. Hun domination of the Ostrogoth kingdom began in the fourth century, but was defeated by the year 450. Both the Ostrogoths and Visigoths became heavily Romanized during this period by the influence of trade with the Byzantines, and by their membership in a military covenant centered in Byzantium to assist each other militarily. In the 5th century, the Visigoths would conquer modern-day Spain from the Roman Empire.

Though many of the fighting nomads who followed them were to prove more bloody, the Goths were feared because the captives they took in battle were sacrificed to their god of war, Tyz [1](the one-Handed Tyr), and the captured arms hung in trees as a token-offering. Their kings and priests came from a separate aristocracy, according to Cassiodorus/Jordanes, and their mythic kings of ancient times were honored as gods. Their mythic lawgiver, named Deceneus, traditionally dated about the 1st century BC, ordered their laws, which they possessed by the 6th century in written form and called belagines.

A force of Goths launched one of the first major "barbarian" invasions of the Roman Empire in 267 (Hermannus Contractus, quoting Eusebius, has "263: Macedonia, Graecia, Pontus, Asia et aliae provinciae depopulantur per Gothos"). A year later, they suffered a devastating defeat at the Battle of Naissus and were driven back across the Danube River by 271. This group then settled on the other side of the Danube from Roman territory and established an independent kingdom centered on the abandoned Roman province of Dacia, as the Visigoths. In the meantime, the Goths still in Ukraine established a vast and powerful kingdom along the Black Sea. This group became known as the Ostrogoths.

The Goths were briefly reunited under one crown in the early sixth century under the Ostrogothic king Theodoric the Great, who became regent of the Visigothic kingdom for nearly two decades.

For the later history of the Goths, see Visigoths and Ostrogoths.

by growabrain Thu Mar 30, 2006 17:18

wikipedia may not be held in high enough esteem for you, but at least i'm using a definition to justify my point. You, on the other hand, are just contradicting everything we say, without providing any evidence. That doesn't constitute an argument.

How do travellers share "cultural, behavioural, linguistic practices" etc. with us? Do you speak cant/gammon? Do you live a nomadic lifestyle? Predicted response: "but dey speek english and som of dem live in housis" Yea well done.

What do you mean by ethnicity then, if you don't think that a group with its own language, customs, etc is a distinct ethnic group? I'm sure for you it means "darkies and dem udder forteners"

why don't you troll idiots get a life? or grow a brain?

by Brainiac Thu Mar 30, 2006 18:19

'Do you speak cant/gammon? '

Not very many travellers speak cant and the only gammon they know about they buy in packets. They are two languages which are deader than Irish. Theres an old teacher in Mayo who is over 100 and he teachs cant to travellers.

by historian Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:21

Typical response of the naive leftie when their shallow and inane theories are exposed. As I said before, ANY sub culture that refuses to accept societal norms regarding crime, education, hygiene, sexual practises etc, could claim to be an ethnic group on the same basis as YOU are claiming the Travellers to be. YOU and your ilk, not the Travellers themselves. Certainly none of them I know who consider themselves to be Dubs or Mayo or Cork people. As for the sources quoted, they are all from the field of sociology which is nothing more than opinion and has no scientific or historical validity. When I once pointed this out to Lentin in TCD I was roundly abused and accused of being a racist! Like you, her and the other social "scientists" response to valid criticism is shrill abuse. By the way, I have actually read some of those 'works' referred to and would place little value on them.

PS. Gammon and cant orginally had nothing to do with Travellers. They refer to old slang dialects used by English criminals which later came to Ireland. Good example being old Dublin ballad "The Night Before Larry Was Stretched". Gammon is mentioned in Dicken's novels about London criminals and their "gamming on" between themselves in order to conceal their plans from possible eavesdroppers.