Park & Ride - Let's do it! - YFG

by Canteen Kevin Thu May 06, 2004 11:52

Dublin is choked with traffic, public transport cannot function properly due to inadequate funding, a lack of proper infastructure and the complete lack of any political will to address the increasing number of cars being put on the roads. Cyclists and pedestrians are barely tolerated, the annual cull of the population through car use continues and these Tories are calling for "park and ride" facilities?

If you want a real policy blueshirts, you can have this for free; fine any car caught within certain areas at certain times for having driver only occupancy.

That would encourage car pooling though, and your corporate paymasters wouldn't like that, would they?

by Steve Thu May 06, 2004 12:48

When did anyone mention a Metro? And wouldn't it be virtually impossible to build one under Dublin anyway?

Another question: what kind of political position do FG actually hold, apart from election promises?

by Cleaver Thu May 06, 2004 13:11

So is park and ride the new solution to all our traffic problems.
Is there any evidence to show that people will actually use these facilities?

by Starstruck - UCD Left Thu May 06, 2004 13:19

Any group which defends human rights abusers does not even deserve to have an opinion.
Fucking shameful YFG

by SP member Thu May 06, 2004 13:28

"Young Fine Gael are calling on young commuters to use their vote on June 11th to call for improved public Transport in the Greater Dublin Region."

Good, YFG will be backing Joe Higgins TD in the European election then. Only by defending public transport from privatisation will anything be solved. There is nothing about planning the economy to minimise the 'rush hour, nothing about privatisation of Dublin Bus.

Park and Ride is a joke that is only pissing around the edges.

by conor - yfg Thu May 06, 2004 13:31

what human rights abuses are yfg defending?

by BoycottCoke Thu May 06, 2004 13:39

We all know that historically YFG always defended the human rights abuses under Franco's fascist regime in Spain. FG even went over to fight for the fascists!

More recently they defend the human rights abuses perpetrated by Coke backed paramilitaries in Colombia.

by Voter Thu May 06, 2004 14:01

FG support the privitisation of public transport which will mean
- Less spent on maintainence of Buses, Trains and tracks: Therefore there will be more late trains/buses, they will break down more often and they will be more dangerous

- The working conditions of drivers will be driven down: Therefore workers accross transport will have to work longer and harder to get decent pay, this will have a knock on effect in safety and it will mean lower morale among staff.

- Fares will increase. Already with the Luas which will be privitised on day 1 the fare into town will be €2!

I could go on all day! But the only people that are really fighting for a decent public transport system are those that are opposing the privitisation of Dublin Bus in any form including 'competition' which is the first step to full privitisation. That is why people if they want decent public transport should not vote FF, FG, PD, Labour, Greens or SF.

by Toni Iomi Thu May 06, 2004 14:06

Just a small point - Park and Ride has been in Cork for a number of years and appears to be quite successful. Trust FineGael to be up to minute with their info!

by conor - yfg Thu May 06, 2004 14:21

YFG werent established when the spanish civil war was on so we couldnt have supported it. we supported human rights abuses in colombia by not backing the coke ban? Just like the trade union in colombia who represent the coke bottlers didnt back it? would you care to mention the abuses of human rights perpetrated by your comrades in far left regimes throughout the world, ie old USSR, Cuba and North Korea? YFG are very much against them

by f Thu May 06, 2004 14:43

I don't think anyone involved in the anti Coke campaigns supported the dictators in the USSR and in Cuba. Far from it. In fact you have to remember who was it that were put in the Gulags? It wasn't the careerists and oppurtunists, it was the genuine socialists who wanted democracy in the USSR. Workers democracy was a far greater threat to the USSR bureaucracy than capitalism ever was.

By the way I seem to remember that while FG were in power they were all too glad to do trade deals with the USSR and socialise with the bureaucracy.

As for Spain, OK YFG were not formed back in the 30s, but your party still sent over members to fight for fascism. Conor will you condemn the Blueshirts and Cumman na Gaedhal?

by FG Watch Thu May 06, 2004 14:56

What about the Human Rights abuses that the forerunners of FG were responsible for? In the Civil War CnaG killed 77 prisoners without any trial whatsoever. These people administered brutal imperialism in Ireland in the 1920s. They ran an oppressive regime that viciously attacked small farmers and workers living conditions. They actually cut the pension in the 1920s.

They were dumped out of office in the late 20s and replaced with FF (more of the same shite from them). In the 1930s FG's forerunners broke up left-wing meetings and rallies. They even sent people over to Spain to fight AGAINST the democratically elected Government and the fought for the Fascists. When I say fight, they didn't fight too much. Nearest they got to the action was serving tea to the Nazi Officers in their Mess. Cowards!

by conor - yfg Thu May 06, 2004 15:03

I havent the faintest notion of condemming Cumann Na Gael. CnaG founded this state and democracy in this country at a time when democracies were rare in western europe. CnaG also faced down an army revolt in 1924, ensuring democracy. They then handed over power peacefully to their bitter enemies Fianna Fail in 1932. Pretty crap facists. The blueshirts were founded as the Ex army comrades association which evolved into an organisation that defended CnaG meetings from IRA attack- defending free speech. Franco was a murdering scumbag, but at the time conventional wisdom was that the commies would be a far worse proposition. Of course how wrong can you get- Stalin was such a humanitarian. Im sorry that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics only ever imprisoned good socialists in the gulags. Who did the imprisoning- were they the bad sort of socialists? Get real. Do you want to condem the socialist paradise that is Cuba- secret police and all? after all i condem facism in all its forms. it just shows how far out of touch the far left is in this country. A simple proposal about public transport from YFG turns into a rant against blueshirts on indymedia.

by f Thu May 06, 2004 15:12

I absolutely condemn the undemocratic and authoritarian methods of the Cuban and North Korea regime. I want to see a political revolution in those countries so genuine workers democracy can prevail, do you? Cuba is not a workers paradise, it is not socialism, this is because it is not democratic and it is not part of an international socialist system. In saying this the planned and state owned nature of the economy have brought massive increases in living standards for the Cuban people, just look at their education and health systems compared to what existed prior to 1959. These benefits is what I defend in Cuba NOT the disgusting Castro regime.

You say Franco was bad... well why wont you condemn the Blueshirts and CnaG who supported Franco and the other fascist regimes in Europe in the 1930s? It is a metter of historicla fact that the Blueshirts did go over to fight for Franco in Spain and they did have the support of CnaG.

by FG Watch Thu May 06, 2004 15:20

FACT: In 1921-22 Parliamentary Democracies were not rare. In fact the early 1920s was the golden age of parliamentary democracy in Europe. These regimes replaced the autocratic Kingdoms that existed prior to the First World War. The only place to be fascist was Italy where Mussoline came to power in this time. Everywhere else (including USSR) had regular elections to assemblies of some kind.

FACT: The Blueshirts did break up meetings of left wing groups. And I make no apology for lefts breaking up fascist meetings. If there were organised fascists today I'd break there meetings up. Fascists want to attack basic civil rights and freedoms they have to be stopped.

FACT: CnaG killed 77 political prisoners during the civil war without a hint of a trial. This is a Human Rights Abuse. You are an apologist for this crime.

FACT: CnaG drove down the living standards of Irish people in the 1920s due to their economic policies. They even cut the pension.

FACT: Blueshits (or whatever you call them) did fight for Franco. Ok, they were not the bravest people in the world and by all accounts were no bloody good, but none-the-less they did support Franco and the Nazis.

FACT: The USSR did not control the Republican side in the Spanish War. They were made up of Anarchists, Socialists, Basques, Catalans, etc. The Stalinists did not control them, and as a result did not fully support the Spanish people's resistance to Franco, Hitler, Mussolini and Duffy.

FACT: It was Socialists that were put in the Gulags. The first to go under Stalin was the veterans of 1917. Stalin systematically destroyed democracy and internationalism in the USSR.

FACT: FG Ministers socialised and befriended the rulers of USSR, China, Eastern Europe for years as political freedom was surpressed.

FACT: You want to privatise public transport which will result in even more of a f**k up of our transport and traffic.

VIVA LA QUINTA BRIGADA!
NO PASARÁN!

by conor - yfg Thu May 06, 2004 15:26

so let me get this straight- none of these supposedly socialist or communist countries are actually actually acceptable as socialist or communist. where exactly are these examples - do they exist,or are the above examples of why socialism and communism are failures? could that be the reason for the lack of any support for the far left in this country- or any country? Examples please. oh yes, if you condem stalin, wouldnt a communist spain in the 30s and 40s be as bad?

by FG Watch Thu May 06, 2004 15:31

Do you not realise that the Stalinists were not in total control in Spain. It was the Spanish people that took chrage of the resistance against Franco, Hitler and Mussolini. Spain was run by the people for the people for a brief time. It was not in Stalin's interest to have a victory for the people of Spain as it's likely that the people in the USSR would be the next to revolt and throw out Stalin. Stalin brutally sold out the Spanish people.

I stand for the democratic ownership and control of the economy. FG do not stand for this. They don't want true democracy. You are the undemocratic ones. You are the ones that socialised with and befriended the USSR leaders, you are the ones that were responsible for killing people in the Civil War without trial, you are the ones that fought for Franco.

by conor - yfg Thu May 06, 2004 15:31 conor.boyle at nuigalway dot ie

So youre ging to break up modern day facist meetings. I totally support you. The next time you oppose(peacefully, mind) Aine ni Chonaill or Justin Barret, email me. though its usually more prudent to let them speak, (freedom of speech!!) make a fool of themselves, then pick apart their arguements

by f Thu May 06, 2004 15:32

Conor are you stupid or something? Can you not see that the left have different opinions on Stalin and the USSR? Most socialists opposed Stalin. He came to power because of a number of international and domestic factors. He was not a socialist. He in fact was against socialism. He scuppered revolutions in many countries such as Spain for his own interests.

by David Thu May 06, 2004 15:33

it wasn't a choice between a "communist" dictatorship or a fascist dictatorship. (it never is) The people on the ground, especially in the basque and catalan areas were fighting for a very different society.
If fascists didn't have so much outside support then there would have been a much better chance of a libertarian socialist society surviving.

The reason socialist countries turn into dictatorships is because the capitalists will not tolerate any truly socialist countries acting as inspiration for other countries, they do everything they can to sabbotage these experiments

by CONOR - YFG Thu May 06, 2004 15:35

FG undemocratic? are you utterly deluded? you are the one without the outdated and discreted politic. you are the one with the lack of any popalur support for this system. where else does it work? Just so i can compare it to the tyrannical empire we have here

by FG Watch Thu May 06, 2004 15:36

has conor gone quite on all the facts I pointed out to him on a previous posting? Are you running scared? please respond.

by conor - YFG Thu May 06, 2004 15:39

So the capitalists are responsible for turning socialist governments into tyrannical regimes? why havent they done it here so? everything is everyone elses fault as to why the far left doesnt live up to its aspirations

by conor - YFG Thu May 06, 2004 15:52

No fg watch, im hardly running scared of you. now these facts; privatisation of public transport in the same email about facism and communism- are you having a laugh? FG ministers did indeed have diplomatic links to the USSR but they werent half as friendly to them as the far left in this country was. I dont believe for a second only "good" socialists were put in gulags by "bad" socialists. the USSR is a fine example of the failure of the far left. Stalin gave ordinance and weapons to the communists in spain. less than Hitler, but still a strange way to show your displeasure at what was going on. The jibe about the pensioncut in the 1920s- put it in your election poster for the locals- or are they not democratic enough for you? The deaths of 77 political prisomers is terrible- all death and war is. And finally, just because CnaG didnt invent democracy, they still deserve a hell of a lot of credit

by Realist Thu May 06, 2004 16:07

Capitalist & Authoritarian regimes spend their entire lives disrupting and preventing true democracy from breaking out.

These tactics range from the type we have seen in the run-up to the MayDay weekend of propanganda, lies, disinformation and of intimidatation of actual activists on the ground.

In other parts of the world, this increases to low-level warfare against social justice, peace and environmental groups, right up to outright war as was the case in Latin America for much of the 1980s.

And the reason is quite simple. Those who have power want to keep power and do not willingly give it up.

As for the power of politicans in the 'parliamentary democracies' of the 'West', they don't have actual real power, such as the power of how society and the economy is structured. The source of this lies behind the facade. This facade is maintained, because the relative peace it offers allows the elite to get on with the business of making themselves wealthy at the expense of everyone else and the environment.

Now that it's getting harder to make money, the social welfare society is being dismantled and this facade is crumbling, hence the reason for the War of Terror is to act as a pretext to the public, to allow a harsher regime while at the same time justifying a much greater crackdown of all forms of dissent.

And members of political parties like FF, PD, FG, Labour and the Greens have largely bought into this facade. They are sort of in mass denial because this may be due to the fact that they are largely doing relatively okay. They usually respond with great indignation when their world view is challenged, but I guess this is simply too disruptive a thought and would demonstrate that much of their life's work up to that point has been largely futile and pointless. I accept that sometimes it can be a little hard to see, considering one of the major pillars of maintaining the facade is the corporate media, who constantly remind us we live in a democracy. Mind you if you tell someone everyday that they are great, they believe it after a while regardless of whether it's true or not.

by conor - yfg Thu May 06, 2004 16:13 conor.boyle at nuigalway dot ie

Mr realist, you have the last word as regards this discussion. I must say I have enjoyed this today. Does anyone know any useful sites i can google onto just to satisfy my curiosity about some of the topics raised today. email or stick em up here, thanks.

by Librarian Thu May 06, 2004 16:44

Conor,
a good book to read on the Spanish Civil War is George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia. Orwell fought in Spain and was undersuspicion of the Stalinists. If you want to read about the dedication of the people of Spain to the revolution and to democracy read this. A good eyewitness account of the Spanish civil war and the practices of the stalinists to surpress the people.

Another good thing to get is a film called "Land and Freedom". It's about an Englishman that fights for the POUM (anti-stalinist socialists) in Spain. It also shows the dedication & sacrifice of the people and the role of the stalinists. I think it won oscars.

Conor, you should be able to get Orwell's books in the NUI Galway Library.

by MeenieNiCribbin Thu May 06, 2004 17:29

How dare yis
Park and Ride how are ya!
Why cant yis park and go ta mass instead?

by provisjonal spokesperson - Reclaim Ireland from British Thugs! Thu May 06, 2004 17:33

It's ridiculous.
For fuck sake, what sort of national tour will this be? You're going to go north and be in Pearse or Connoly Station with 45 minutes?
or south and be in Wexford in fifteen hours, if there's no goats on the line?
Fuck off now!
We're onto you, and we've 12 years to go really truthful on your grand-daddys' basement guests.
and will you be finishing it in Greystones afterwards?

by random input Thu May 06, 2004 17:49

Park n ride in Dublin I mean? I seem to recall a picture in the Herald (?) a while back, that showed the new park and ride car park up by the Point - and it was populated by a total of ONE car.

I could be wrong though...

by intresting detour into FG/Stalinst history Thu May 06, 2004 18:14

If
The insurance on providing the private busses wasnt thru the roof.Ditto for the parking spaces public liability insurances.
Unless the Left get in and are willing to foot the insurance bills for all accidents.Like what was done in sov russia.state pays for all.

It isnt delegated out to greater Rathnafuck ville near any large Irish city.Where it will take two plus hours via non existant public transport to get ten miles into the city.

If it isnt blocked perpetually by a collection of NIMBYS,Crusties, Eco nuts andLuddites who want us back on asses and carts,and politcowhores of both left&right who would bend over for a vote.

If money wasnt wasted on fuckwitted expensive,still not working projects like LUAS,being built by a lazy and inefficent IRISH workforce.Run by incompetant,bungling pocket lining IRISH greedy bastard bosses and politicowhores in charge of this place.

by Aye Thu May 06, 2004 18:25

Last Christmas there was a 'Park 'n' Ride facility out at Whitehall. No one used it, empty buses coasting in and out of town all day. Typical of FG issuing statements about fuck all to get a few paragraphs in the Herald and they wonder why no one votes for them.

Nice to see the wee YFG child decrying the old 'secret police' in Cuba. The 1970s government of FG and Labour had a nice line on this. Heavy Gang, anyone?

by John Carroll Thu May 06, 2004 19:14 jjcarrol at tcd dot ie

Park and Ride would have a strong possibility of success, but only in a limited number of areas.

In my one experience, a semi park and ride exists in Navan, whereby people park all along the Dublin road and get the bus from there. With the provision of large car parks at various points along the N3 & N2 and a 15 minute bus service at peak times and 30 minutes at off peak it could work.

Essentially if large car parks existedd north and south of Dunshaughlin, near Fairyhouse cross, Ratoath village, North and South of Ashbourne, Kilmoon Cross, Nine Mile Stone and a few other spots it could be quite successful.

However, a word of caution. The bus service needs to be at a higher standard and more frequent standard than the current bus service (the current service is very, very good, but only suits students & public servants). Furthermore, the bus service would need to service the Industrial estates of North Dublin as well.

The possibility exists that a useful park and ride service could be created, but it would need serious investment in car parks in prime areas and in the bus service.

by Sexual Workers Party Thu May 06, 2004 20:10

Sounds good to me, you cant beat the back seat of a punto for a bit of hows your uncle Eamonn

by conor - yfg Thu May 06, 2004 20:12

thanks librarian

by IMC Dalek - (personal capacity) Thu May 06, 2004 21:10

Bzzt! Bzzt! Warning! Warning! Press release from corporate cock sucking right wing party! Non news item! Not a part of the Indymedia global struggle! Part of the system we are fighting against! Delete! Delete!

Or is Indymedia "separate" from it all?

More questions than answers after last weekend...

by General O' Dufflecoat Thu May 06, 2004 21:10

No amount of publicity shots, trains planes and automobiles can save FG, young or old. Forget the 'fastest growing youth organisation, thousands of new members' etc. What matters is what happens on June the 11th. Any half assed punter will tell you FG will lose loads of council seats. The only real question is do they dip under the 22% figure. Truth is, if they do badly they are in tailspin. What can they do, choose a new leader? Unless they recover in June their destiny is to either implode or fade away. Which will leave a yawning middle class and farmer gap to be gobbled by the PDs and Labour. Leaving a yawning gap to the left of Labour which the radical left could fill if we ever get our act together!

by Michelle Clarke - Mental Health Survivor Thu May 06, 2004 21:24 michelle33 at eircom dot net none

Well done to Young Fine Gael.

Park and Ride has been in place in other Cities worldwide for years.

I used to avail of it in Cambridge.

When I returned to Ireland - I found travelling by bus an arduous task so I decided to park my car during the summer months in the Phoenix Park and walk to Trinity via the River Liffey - there is huge potential.

Time for Minister Brennan and others to think laterally and if they cannot to ask those of us who can.

Michelle Clarke
My quote for today is from Gandhi 'You have to be the change you want to see'

by another personal capacity Thu May 06, 2004 23:04

it's walking into a public house and finding everyone agreeing with one another.

The young Fine gael Press releases are pure comedy anyway - the mayday one about the commies hippies greenies one was enuff to show that the pointyheadedness of their outlook is matched only by the contours of the 'nail in the pale'

by adam Fri May 07, 2004 16:43

For god sake, what on earth has YFG got to do with a war 90 years ago? I mean get real, it's the 21st century

FF & FG are two sides of the same coin, but no one ever asks what FF stands for! and what is it? it's the party of power/corruption, a hacknied vision of 32 county ireland.

The majority of irish people in EVERY election have voted centre right - and sometimes they want a different crowd of centre right politicians to the incumbants.

And no I'm not a FG'er, I'll be voting for Bacik (sp?) in the EU's because frankly, I find the likes of TD's such as Ryan (FF), Mithcell (FG) AND Saint Joe Higgins double jobbing disgraceful.

What is it Joe, TD or MEP... make your choice... look at Paisley, you can't/shouldn't do 2 jobs at once.

I see a 'Cope' gallagher switch-a-ro happening at the next election.

by Joe Supporter Fri May 07, 2004 16:49

I think that the SP intend on only holding one position per person. So if Joe is elected expect a bye-election in West Dublin or the MEP position to go to someone else.

by adam Fri May 07, 2004 16:51

and anyway, you need an alternative, face facts, if FG implode FF will be in power for another 10 years, labour won't make up the ground, SF will not be acceptable to the majority of irish people for another generation and what you'll have is FF with the 70-80 seats, Pd's with 2-8, Labour with 15-30 and a host of independents...

so depends what your priority is, getting FF out of power on a national level or sitting smugly congradulating yourself on getting a local activist.

Just remember., had the Naider voters voted Anti-Bush in florida, Bush'es war in Iraq would NEVER have happened. Think bigger picture.

by adam Fri May 07, 2004 16:56

Higgins give up the Dail? I can't see it, it's what makes his profile. I'd vote for him if I was convinced.

He'll hold both until the General Election, get elected as TD (and I do think he's one of the better ones) and co-opt some other party member into his MEP seat a la Cope/Neachtain

oh, and he'll have his extra pension : )

Sorry, just won't vote for ANY TD seeking an MEP position unless they declared an intention to resign their dail seat in their election literature.

by militio Sun May 09, 2004 16:15

I think people who are criticising Joe Higgins over "double jobbing" are kind of missing the point of his standing in the first place. The Socialist Party (or indeed any revolutionary party worth its salt) don't primarily stand in elections to gain seats, although of course this is a secondary objective and an added bonus. The whole point of a revolutionary left party standing in an election should be to create awareness of an alternative political force amongst the working class, and attempting to recruit and win people over to that alternative. Joe Higgins won't get elected as an MEP, but he'll certainly get a respectable vote, perhaps around 12,000 or so. The "double-jobbing" argument I believe is a very petty one - it does have relevance, but at the end of the day there are more important issues to discuss.