OscailtSensation out of court! Circuit Court Judge called to task at Public TalkGives "interesting" views on jury system! Problem of unemployed and retired jurors raised.
Breaking news: Italian MP, Sgarbi denounces the Statistical Fraud on COVID-19. The speech of the Member of Parliament Vittorio Sgarbi in the session of the Italian Camera, Meeting no. 331 of Friday 24, April, 2020. Vittorio Sgarbi, denounces the closure of 60% of the businesses for 25,000 COVID-19 Deaths, of which the National Institute of Health says 96.3% died NOT of COVID-19 but of other pathologies. That means only 925 have died of the virus. 24,075 have died of other things.2005-04-27T19:17:56+00:00Indymedia Irelandimc-ireland@lists.indymedia.iehttp://www.indymedia.ie/atomfullposts?story_id=69592http://www.indymedia.ie/graphics/feedlogo.gifAnalysishttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1060632005-04-27T19:17:56+00:00JWThat's the report. Here's our short analysis.
The whole thing was big on irony...That's the report. Here's our short analysis.<br />
The whole thing was big on irony. This judge was telling "tomorrow's solicitors, barristers and judges" how the system works without talking about it's serious faults or failings. <br />
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He left out any mention of judicial accountability, and in fact he never mentioned the defendant when he listed the participants of a court case. <br />
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The judge's aversion to jury trials is worrying, and we would be concerned if it was a view shared by the judges of the other 7 circuit courts (Judge Moran is in the South West circuit, covering Kerry, Limerick and Clare)<br />
It's especially worrying that he was passing this view on to law students - people who will never sit on a jury, but who may end up sitting as a judge.<br />
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The Judge seems to place little trust in motives or the ability of the juror to decide anything - a jury does not have to give reasons for its decisions, but if a jury were to acquit a guilty person it “would be sending a message to the government and the legislature” <br />
Why does the judge assuming that the jury doesn’t simply think the guilt was not proven?<br />
It is after all, the standard that must be met. A jury must be convinced beyond reasonable doubt. The judge's role is to interpret the law, but the jury decides guilt or innocence. <br />
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He admitted to no difference between theory and practice in the Irish courts.<br />
"a good judge is one who listens and the ones who get into trouble are the ones who pre-empt things" the irony was killing me at this point, as this is the same judge who pre-emptively shut down a legal defence in Ennis, before it had been introduced. <br />
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His statement that “the Chief Justice’s ability to enforce the law was dependant on the the good will of the Public at Large and nothing else” seemed to deny the existence of an Garda Siochana, or any unease amongst the public for some of the stances taken by judges. <br />
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The lack of accountability has led to a culture where a judge will never admit to being wrong, and an accused person must rely on on appeals system if convicted because of improper behaviour. The appeals system may say that the judge erred in judgement, but it will never be admitted that the judge did so deliberately.<br />
At the end of the day, it is almost impossible to remove a judge for improper behaviour.<br />
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And finally, it would be beneficial if more members of the public were treated to an education in how the courts work (not just those who study law or hear about talks in universities at short notice).<br />
If school children got to spend one day in the district or circuit court it would be a beneficial education for them.Funny that he'd pick the case of William Pennhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1060642005-04-27T19:27:08+00:00MichaelNice work guys n girls who put the judge on the spot.
It's funny that Carol M...Nice work guys n girls who put the judge on the spot.<br />
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It's funny that Carol Moran would identify himself with the discredited old fart who famously locked up the jury when they wouldn't convict William Penn. Jury nullification is exactly one of those hard-won rights we need to protect.note on Judicial Watchhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1060682005-04-27T19:39:27+00:00JWjudicialwatchireland at yahoo dot co dot ukWe have used the pseudonym JW and the name Judicial Watch for this story.
In...We have used the pseudonym JW and the name Judicial Watch for this story. <br />
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In the US and other countries, there actually is a judicial watch (and a media watch, corpwatch etc) but no such body exists in Ireland. We would like to change that.<br />
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We would like for citizens to take a more active role in protecting the standards of democracy and people's rights by helping to monitor cases of judicial malpractice and to push for greater accountabilty and a change to the way that judges are appointed in this country (at the moment it is entirely the gift of the government - a situation which means one cannot trust impartial judgement in a case which directly challenges state policy)great articlehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1060772005-04-27T21:18:20+00:00indie-socWell done JW!<br />
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No wonder he didn't stick around.Well done JW!<br />
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No wonder he didn't stick around.The right questionshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1060852005-04-27T22:06:17+00:00NiallFair play to you Judicial Watch for boldly putting judge Carroll Moran rightly ...Fair play to you Judicial Watch for boldly putting judge Carroll Moran rightly on the stand and thinking well on your feet to keep him there.<br />
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Great analysis too, clear and accurate reminders us of the injustices in the justice system.<br />
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Your report and analysis are an education JW, keep them coming, educate us please.yet more congratulationshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1060942005-04-28T00:54:28+00:00garethgreat article. pithy and interesting. it's always nice to hear of the pompous ge...great article. pithy and interesting. it's always nice to hear of the pompous getting their comeuppance.A few pointshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1060982005-04-28T02:05:00+00:00AlFor starters I agree with the jury system, my fear with them is intimidation. It...For starters I agree with the jury system, my fear with them is intimidation. It is unfair to place a person in a position where the result they reach could risk themselves and their families.<br />
Secondly, Every person has the right to trial by jury for a criminal act, when a case is decided in a lower court by a judge the defendent has agreed to this as it usually works in their favour. <br />
For every good judge, there is bad, for every harsh judge, a lenient one, for every pro-garda one, an anti-garda one. Thats the way the system works either by design or by practice.<br />
The reason judges are considered untouchable is not for the reasons you seem to believe, it is too ensure that they cannot be intimidated or threatened with losing their jobs for making an unpopular decision.<br />
"Without fear, favour or malice"<br />
Finally, ask Anto or Macca in your local district court if he thinks the system has been unfair during his 90+ convictions. Hes the real expert.Courageous stuff...http://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1061022005-04-28T10:21:34+00:00youknowwho....well done, now that's what I call an intervention.! Especially on the same d.......well done, now that's what I call an intervention.! Especially on the same day the Garda Union are on the teev whinging about their members having been charged at all for the televised Dame St. bashings 2002.<br />
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An ombudsman wouldn't go astray down here. What did the Brits ever do for us...they can keep the aqeducts give us an ombuds(wo)man.<br />
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Seems like rights we had are alrady lost, they erode away while we slumber.excellent icon. oléhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1061062005-04-28T11:11:22+00:00moo moo moo miaow squeekthe judger's wiggie has brought fear and foolishness to communities throughout t...the judger's wiggie has brought fear and foolishness to communities throughout the anglosaxon judicial world. In Ireland (republic) the judger's wiggie is one of the few symbols which has remained unchanged.<br />
And throughout all, the judger's wiggie protects the little brain underneath from cooling down, and that (((i))) might just stand for ego.<br />
The vast majority of judgers globally wear special costumes, these range from the star-trek judge judy type capes of the USA to the red silk and doylies worn by Italians. This is to convey the gravity of their task.<br />
Judgers pay for these clothing themselves, they are not provided by the state, and this is something your career guidance advisor ought tell you when you inquire about judgering as a work option. In today's society your career guidance will not use the frank phrase "sorry you come from the wrong class to be a judger" they'll just fob you off with leaflets from a multi-national-corporation who'll suggest paying your fees<br />
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Judgering is not precarious, though, but it is considered to be one of the most "incorporated" professions, (and indeed there are no amateur or gentleman or lady player judgers). Judgers live in isolation from most of the people they serve, judge, pardon, sentance, and are only subject to peer review at the first instance. Judgers do not get the sack (pun). Judgers thus slowly leave the real world of mundane worries, quite naturally over time and their ethical ability to make "just decisions" is markedly effected over time.<br />
This might have supported a global imperialist system, the one that developed wiggies for all the guilds from organists to judgers, but in today's society it's non-democratic, and does not serve the interests of an inclusive society.<br />
All to often our critical attention as two of the estates that comprises civil society (media and social assemblies) is directed at the executive rather than the judiciary. Yet the overlap is often non-constitutional (most certainly in the Republic of Ireland).<br />
Of the incorporated professions, we see an unwarrented number of legal professionals in our executive who gravitate to the justice department and are the closest to an auto-defined social peer response group the older judger is likely to get, and yet we do not have a single barrista in the Dail.Good onehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1061192005-04-28T14:21:33+00:00Deirdre ClancyGood one, Judicial Watch. It's indeed very educational and interesting.
I agr...Good one, Judicial Watch. It's indeed very educational and interesting.<br />
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I agree with the person who says that jury intimidation is an issue, but there are ways to prevent this these days where it is a problem. The issue of witness intimidation is a much more pressing one, as happened in Limerick in recent times.<br />
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Everyone has the right to be tried by a jury of their peers. Having sat in front of a jury as a defendant (though the trial later collapsed), I appreciate juries, because it increases the chance of a fair trial to have 12 diverse minds rather than one establishment mind assessing your defense. The judiciary is weighted in favour of the prosecution in many ways (though we're very often told it's the other way around, it generally isn't), and juries are one of the few protections against this.<br />
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The jury system is imperfect, but it's better than not having a jury system. There's always a chance, of course, that a jury will be a collection of lunatics, but it's highly unlikely, given the vetting processes that occur and given the fact that there are 12 of them. We hear a lot of the sensational cases where juries came to improbable conclusions, such as the OJ Simpson case, but most cases are not as ideologically charged as this and are more mundane.as if to prove the unhealthy relationship between the executive and judiciaryhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1061252005-04-28T14:49:10+00:00-Michael Mcdowell the Irish minister for justice has just taken to the Irish stat...Michael Mcdowell the Irish minister for justice has just taken to the Irish state media provider to comment publically on the case of Fianna Fáil TD, Dr Jim McDaid, (who as a former minister launched a safe driving campaign).<br />
Jim Mcdaid endangered the lives of many by driving his car like he had watched too many matrix movies up the wrong side of bush road in a police chase.<br />
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mcdowell, has said that "it was not unprecedented, and that Dr McDaid was not the first politician to find himself in this situation."<br />
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Yes indeed, many Irish politicians have been known to drive drunkenly escaping police and security forces down the wrong side of the road. We are famous for it.<br />
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Is it too much to ponder, that this public statement to the state media organ made by the Justice Minister will influence the prosecution of a fellow goverment politican, by the police force for whom he has responsibility and in the courts from which he is influence is supposed to be constitutionally limited?<br />
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This is rotten.<br />
rotten to the core.<br />
Judgers listen to Ministers on TV, they don't listen to calls for leniancy on a host of other "it has happened oft before" charges.<br />
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McDowell, you are a TOAD ribbid ribbid.Let's not forgethttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1061542005-04-28T18:23:59+00:00Jim BobJudge Moran was the judge who decided that the search warrant in the Judge Curti...Judge Moran was the judge who decided that the search warrant in the Judge Curtin porno case was out of date...<br />
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The trouble with the lack of accountability is that without it, a few bad apples becomes the norm rather than the exception... <br />
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The appointment of judges should be done by a body independent of the cabinet, and subject to public scrutiny. <br />
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Also, don't be surprised if McDaid says eh cannot get a fair trial cos McDowell has publicly prejudiced it in the media.<br />
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Haughey got that result out of Harney..Re rights to jury trial and child porno judgehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1061822005-04-29T09:02:34+00:00MichaelThis isn't America. In Ireland you are only entitled to a jury trial if it is an...This isn't America. In Ireland you are only entitled to a jury trial if it is an indictable offence, but not one to be heard before a special anti-terrorism or military court.<br />
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Rotten as he may be, I think Judge Moran was right about the warrant in the child porno judge case. It had expired. The cops were, in effect, snooping around someone's house and confiscating things without any authorisation to do so.<br />
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Cops take liberties like this all the time, and it's not right (just read ANY recent report from Shannon Airport).<br />
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And besides, the child porno judge case might be just the thing to prompt some reform of the judiciary in Ireland.Entitlementshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1062082005-04-29T16:08:42+00:00Deirdre ClancyWell, there's a difference between legal entitlements and human rights. In my vi...Well, there's a difference between legal entitlements and human rights. In my view, a jury trial should be viewed as a human right. I have reservations about the level of evidence (or lack thereof) required in the Special Criminal Court. There has to be a better system than that. <br />
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I would tend also to think that the guards were the ones who messed up with regards to the Curtin case. I can understand why and how the mistake occurred, as it was a time-sensitive investigation, but I still think it's hard to see how Moran had a choice to do other than he did in that case.Really Grate work!http://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1062122005-04-29T17:11:50+00:00Kieran O'Sullivankieran.ousllivan at ireland dot comReally Grate work!
I would love to have known that that judge was going to spee...Really Grate work!<br />
I would love to have known that that judge was going to speek!The right of trial by juryhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1062192005-04-29T20:58:49+00:00NadiaIn the rts cases, the case aganist corcoran for one assault was compelling. Corc...In the rts cases, the case aganist corcoran for one assault was compelling. Corcoran admitted using excessive force aganist one suspect and was clearly idenitified. A case of assault was compelling, and plausible, yet the jury acquited. The sense of disgust and frustration from council for the state, and journalists present, and the sense of unnatural glee among the gardai was palpable. <br />
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Fundamentally the users of indymedia must recognise their worldview is in the minority on this isle. Its frustrating and unfortunately needs to be recognised. The contempt for the courts over wrongly verdicts and pronouncements by judges must be recognised that simply put jurors are going to put out verdicts that annoy both sides of the political fence, criticizing the judicary while supporting jury verdicts, while criticizing jury verdicts in another case, implies a suggest that you expect to win every time.Perverse Judgements AKA Jury Nullificationhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1062292005-04-30T00:47:37+00:00Phuq HeddAre one of the ways that juries have been using increasingly as a way of taking ...Are one of the ways that juries have been using increasingly as a way of taking control of their society and ignoring the inappropriate constraints shoved on them by diverse judicial authorities. <br />
<a href="http://www.greenmac.com/eagle/ISSUES/ISSUE23-9/07JuryNullification.html">http://www.greenmac.com/eagle/ISSUES/ISSUE23-9/07JuryNullification.html</a>Stink of Elitismhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/69592#comment1073262005-05-11T19:38:04+00:00Public ServantI have seen Carroll Moran in action. Once he exchanged snide remarks with a soli...I have seen Carroll Moran in action. Once he exchanged snide remarks with a solicitor about the accused who was a member of the Travelling people. He ridiculed the Traveller, who looked completely humiliated. I could not believe the Traveller's solicitor just stood there and did not intervene. There was the usual mix of humanity present in the court, and you could see the smug looks on many faces. Judge Moran is in a position of power. His arrogance is a sickener.<br />
What I would not have given to turn the clock back and be at that lecture where JW ambushed the toe rag. Brilliant idea. Gives me ideas for other forms of direct action. Well done!!! He deserved this humiliation.